Mirroring hydraulic brakes and belt drive on frame runner

slomobile

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Just getting started trying to build something like a dual rear motor dual rear brake (l/r) frame runner https://by-conniehansen.com/product/storm-runner/ Starting with a Worksman trike, whatever model this is, as a donor/testbed. Everything rear of seatpost except wheels is going away. Replaced by U shaped frame connected at bottom bracket (yellow highlight). I will jog between the rear wheels as long as I am able, torso support in place of butt seat. Then jump onto footpegs (red highlight) for an electric ride home. I have lumbar spinal injury that doesn't let me bear full weight sitting or standing or make pedaling motion, but I can shuffle feet. I think this is the closest I can get to running again.

Worksman_hack.jpg

I got a deal on these brakes https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CP9WBWMT before realizing that front/rear brakes cannot be mirrored left/right as far as I can tell. Is there a way to do that? Or perhaps a similar Zoom HB-890E caliper intended for mounting on right side of wheel, left side of bike? Maybe a send-cut-send file for mirrored trike caliper mounts? Where do recumbents source their mirrored disc brake calipers?

I was hoping to use some brushed motors I am already familiar with controlling programmatically, rather than learn hub motor programming. Connected to wheel hubs (3 hole) via 5mm pitch 15mm wide HTD timing belt pulley mounted to same place as brake rotor.

Sensors will monitor my stride and attempt to match pace closely with wheel speed.

Any advice welcomed.
 
Mirroring the brakes is as simple as mounting one of them in front of the rotor and one behind, or one on top and one under, etc. They're then not truly mirrored but they will still function as needed, and can both be inboard or outboard and have hoses or cabling routed wherever is needed. .

Keep in mind that the adapters for front vs rear may not match each other, so you may have to custom-make your mounting points specifically for this difference as well as the position relative to the rotor, so that the caliper sits over the rotor the same way on both.

It would be more complicated if you were dealing with an existing frame or fork, but since you're building the whole rear frame you can do it in any way that makes these work.


BTW, if you don't already have the brakes (sounds like you do) then the cable-operated Avid BB7 would be simpler to install and maintain, and work very very well (I use a single one on the front wheel with 200mm rotor to stop my heavy heavy-cargo-trike SB Cruiser, even with my 200lbs on it plus a few hundred pounds of load in the trike or a trailer or both. My max speed is 20mph normally, and I reduce that with loads to as low as 10-12mph when I hauled a piano in the trailer.
 
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I was hoping to use some brushed motors I am already familiar with controlling programmatically, rather than learn hub motor programming. Connected to wheel hubs (3 hole) via 5mm pitch 15mm wide HTD timing belt pulley mounted to same place as brake rotor.

Sensors will monitor my stride and attempt to match pace closely with wheel speed.

From what you write, you can probably work out the reduction - walking pace will be quite slow for many motors.

On the chance you don't know of them, and that it may be of use, Grin sells several motors for use in wheelbarrows, with double reduction providing wheelbarrow speeds:
look for three models of motor on this page
 
Thanks. I'm still fuzzy on how everything is supposed to bolt together. I have robotics experience and a TIG welder so I understand gear ratios and programming and general mechanical principles. But the last time I rode a bike, V brakes were a brand new thing and I didn't have them. So the only thing I know about modern bike parts is what I can read online. No hands on experience, except these disc brakes literally in my hand, no rotors.

Q. What is the BCD Bolt Circle Diameter of 6 bolt 180mm disc brake mounts? Is that standardized?
Q. Do any bike compatible rotors come with a 2.5" BCD compatible with go kart hubs?

I required amberwolf's explanation to visualize how flipping the same caliper backwards and upside down for the other wheel is equivalent from a lateral spacing and pad angle perspective. However now the banjo is at the bottom which is a bad thing AFAIK because any air in the line will get trapped at the piston rather than bubble up to the master cylinder. Result sponge pedal... er, lever. Just applying what I know about car brakes. Does that happen?

So wondering what is meant by "mounting one of them in front of the rotor and one behind". Changing the angle fore or aft doesn't seem like it would make any difference. Do you mean leave the left caliper in the exact same orientation as the right, with both banjos/lines exiting front left of the calipers and both facing the left wheel? If so the left wheel would need the caliper mount somehow between wheel and rotor. I don't see how that is possible.

How are the Avid BB7 simpler to install? Just because they are not hydraulic? Or are they able to be taken apart and reconfigured for a true mirror arrangement?

Oh, I think I just saw it in my head. Both calipers on top of rotor. Turn the left caliper around so both have the line and bracket inboard. Left line exiting rearward, right line exiting forward. Then throw out the left side adapter and make a new one to fix the attack angle of the pad to match the right? Or is there some magic that can be done by flipping around the adapters?

I'm familiar with the Grin wheelbarrow motors. My limited understanding of ebike motors is that the slope of their torque curve does not reach the upper left corner of the graph like brushed motors do, but levels off near zero RPM. Since I will need to have very precise, predictable, controlled acceleration / deceleration around 0 RPM where brushed reach their max torque, I could trade away brushless high speed and power handling. When I have used brushless in the past, they always had startup problems which I'd like to avoid.
 
Thanks. I'm still fuzzy on how everything is supposed to bolt together. I have robotics experience and a TIG welder so I understand gear ratios and programming and general mechanical principles. But the last time I rode a bike, V brakes were a brand new thing and I didn't have them. So the only thing I know about modern bike parts is what I can read online. No hands on experience, except these disc brakes literally in my hand, no rotors.
The info there is not the most up to date, but you may find Sheldon Brown's bicycle maintenance site useful. I learn something new just about every time I go there to look something up for someone here, and I've been doing that for at least a decade and a half. :)


Q. What is the BCD Bolt Circle Diameter of 6 bolt 180mm disc brake mounts? Is that standardized?
All the typical bicycle brake rotors and hubs are ISO standard spacings (though not all use the same outer diameter; you may find 200mm rotors, and 203mm, etc, as well as smaller ones)):

Q. Do any bike compatible rotors come with a 2.5" BCD compatible with go kart hubs?
Probably not: A few seconds on google image search shows a lot of possible shapes and styles for go-kart rotors, some of which have keyways and / or grub screws, some of which have bolt holes, some of the latter have four holes, some have other numbers.

But if the go-kart rotors are the same thickness as the bicycle rotors (you'd have to check), then you just use the calipers you have and get whatever rotors fit whatever hubs you're using.


Another few seconds shows there are adapters for certain combinations of hardware; I don't know if any of them will do what you want:


I required amberwolf's explanation to visualize how flipping the same caliper backwards and upside down for the other wheel is equivalent from a lateral spacing and pad angle perspective. However now the banjo is at the bottom

Then don't put it at the bottom ;), rotate it so it is in the right place for your application. It doesn't matter where the caliper is on the round rotor, as long as your mount transfers the forces to the frame correctly, it's doing the same thing to the rotor no matter where it is (remember the rotor is spinning, and has no idea "where" it is relative to the caliper, and vice-versa).

The only time a specific caliper orientation is required relative to the rotor or frame is when you have a frame that is already built in some way with mounts in some specific place. If you're building the frame "from scratch" like this, you figure out where you want the calipers, and design the frame with mounts to do that. ;)


which is a bad thing AFAIK because any air in the line will get trapped at the piston rather than bubble up to the master cylinder. Result sponge pedal... er, lever. Just applying what I know about car brakes. Does that happen?

Don't know--I don't use hydraulics because of all the various problems they can have, most of which can't be fixed roadside without stuff I wouldn't want to be carrying with me all the time.

Every problem I've ever experienced wiht cable-operated brakes I've been able to deal with roadside in a few minutes and be back on my way, so I stick with those, since they are strong enough to brake my trike just fine (so were the rim brakes before that, but after I broke a fork and had to temporarily go to a fork with no rim bosses I tried the Avid BB7 and they work just fine so I stayed with them).


So wondering what is meant by "mounting one of them in front of the rotor and one behind". Changing the angle fore or aft doesn't seem like it would make any difference. Do you mean leave the left caliper in the exact same orientation as the right, with both banjos/lines exiting front left of the calipers and both facing the left wheel? If so the left wheel would need the caliper mount somehow between wheel and rotor. I don't see how that is possible.
Assuming you are mounting these inboard of the wheels, then each caliper mounts "facing" the centerline, away from the rotor, wheel, etc. It's rotation relative ot the other makes absolutely no difference--each one is independent; that was my point about them not needing to be mirrored in your case.

It's probably easier to visualize if you setup a simulated frame (sticks, wood, carboard, whatever) and wheels and rotors in place on it, and set the calipers on the rotors, moving them around until each one is in a compatible place with your needs and cable routing, etc. Then design the mounts for the frame so they end up there.

If you cannot find a position for each caliper (independent of the other) that works for your setup, then you'd need a different caliper to fit that setup.


How are the Avid BB7 simpler to install? Just because they are not hydraulic? Or are they able to be taken apart and reconfigured for a true mirror arrangement?
Just because they're cable-operated, so you can do whatever you want with them as long as the cable routing works out for you. No worries about folding/crimping a hydraulic hose, or having one so long that it has so much volume that the lever can't produce enough pressure change to make it work correctly. I think I might have 10 or 12 feet of cable between my lever and my caliper on the Avid BB7, because of the long steering tiller on SB Cruiser, and the brake still operates fine, with as fine a control over it as I need while still having full braking power (enough to skid the wheel) available too.


My limited understanding of ebike motors is that the slope of their torque curve does not reach the upper left corner of the graph like brushed motors do, but levels off near zero RPM.
Some ebike motors are brushed, too, so I'm not sure what you mean.

If you want to see how the torque curves for various motors work under your specific conditions, with various voltages, currents, etc. I recommend playing with the motor simulator at ebikes.ca . I don't think any brushed motors are listed there to compare with, but if you already have torque curves for some, you can setup the simulator for the same conditions and voltage and current as those curves you have, and try different motors there to compare.

(if you don't use the same conditions, etc., you can't directly compare the results).


Note that a brushed motor does it's own commutation, so it controls it's own startup and rotation based on the voltage applied across it and the current available to it from whatever controller is used (if any).

A brushless motor is commutated by the external controller electronics, which also control the voltage and current, so how that controller is designed and/or setup/programmed determines how well that commutation, startup, and rotation is done under any particular condition.

It's more difficult to setup and tune a brushless system for that startup situation and fine low-RPM-under-load condition than it is to do the same for brushed motors, so for your application the brushed motors would likely be simpler to deal with.


Your only real issue is likely to be chain slop if using a chain-driven (or belt) system, but tensioning systems (slots in the motor mounts, for instance) can take care of that pretty simply.
 
BTW, while none of the calipers I've seen have any operational difference in reaction to the rotor spinning forwards or backwards, you should check yours to see if their mechanical design only works when rotating forwards--if they do, then you can't use them as I described. I can't imagine why anyone would design calipers to not work when backing up, but if they did.....
 
Just getting started trying to build something like a dual rear motor dual rear brake (l/r) frame runner https://by-conniehansen.com/product/storm-runner/ Starting with a Worksman trike, whatever model this is, as a donor/testbed. Everything rear of seatpost except wheels is going away. Replaced by U shaped frame connected at bottom bracket (yellow highlight). I will jog between the rear wheels as long as I am able, torso support in place of butt seat. Then jump onto footpegs (red highlight) for an electric ride home. I have lumbar spinal injury that doesn't let me bear full weight sitting or standing or make pedaling motion, but I can shuffle feet. I think this is the closest I can get to running again.

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I got a deal on these brakes Amazon.com before realizing that front/rear brakes cannot be mirrored left/right as far as I can tell. Is there a way to do that?

While there are a few mirror paired hydraulic brakes out there, the easier way to have R/L discs is to mount the right side frame tab upside down. Then the calipers can be identical.

Also better (if, like me, you don't enjoy oily lubricated disc rotors and brake levers that squeeze all the way to the bar without doing anything) is to use good cable discs like Avid BB7 or TRP Spyke. Or Paul Klampers, if you're made of money but don't know what to do with it.
 
Q. What is the BCD Bolt Circle Diameter of 6 bolt 180mm disc brake mounts? Is that standardized?
It's 44mm BCD, M5x0.8 threads. It doesn't vary by rotor diameter. It is as standardized as anything can be in the bike industry at the moment. There is one other common competing standard, Shimano Centerlock, which uses a fine pitch spline and a lockring like that of a cassette freehub.

Q. Do any bike compatible rotors come with a 2.5" BCD compatible with go kart hubs?
Not that I know of.

I required amberwolf's explanation to visualize how flipping the same caliper backwards and upside down
Upside down, not backwards.

However now the banjo is at the bottom which is a bad thing AFAIK because any air in the line will get trapped at the piston rather than bubble up to the master cylinder.
There is a very easy way to prevent any such problem. Use a cable as a brake cable. They never get bubbles in them.

So wondering what is meant by "mounting one of them in front of the rotor and one behind".
Just what he said. Considering the orientation of your frame members, it would be more accurate to say one above and one below. The conventional left side mounting for the left side wheel would have the tab on top of the frame tube, and the unconventional right side mounting for the right side wheel would have the tab mounted on the bottom of the tube.

That's how pedicabs with dual rear discs do it. And they use twin cable levers to pull both rear brakes at the same time.
 
BTW, while none of the calipers I've seen have any operational difference in reaction to the rotor spinning forwards or backwards, you should check yours to see if their mechanical design only works when rotating forwards--if they do, then you can't use them as I described. I can't imagine why anyone would design calipers to not work when backing up, but if they did.....
I honestly wasn't sure if I failed to describe the problem, or I failed to understand the solution. From this it seems I failed to describe the problem and these 4 piston calipers are designed for a specific rotation direction. Notice in this photo, as they would be mounted how the angle of caliper(rotation around X axis in photo) in relation to rotor travel is different laft vs right. Is that significant for performance? I cant imagine they would design it that way if it didn't matter.withAdapters.jpgwithoutAdapters.jpg
The brake pads seem symetrical, but the front set of pistons are larger diameter.
 
From this it seems I failed to describe the problem and these 4 piston calipers are designed for a specific rotation direction.

Hydraulic bicycle brakes are toys; that's why they don't have any standardization and are packed with more and more useless novelty features as the price point increases.

You're talking about a vehicle that has neither high speed, nor high load, nor high endurance demands. What you need is high reliability and fault tolerance, but you're quibbling about the rotation direction of what is essentially a gimmicky fetish item? Use your toy brakes if you must, but there's no need to overthink the problem you're trying to solve.

It seems like another feature nobody mentioned yet, but that you might want, is locking brakes for parking the contraption. Cable locking levers are cheap and easy, and they maintain their hold as long as they're engaged. Hydro locking levers are uncommon, and they bleed down and lose holding grip if there's the slightest bit of internal leakage.
 
I've never had any issues with motorcycle hydraulic brakes other than leaky fork seals dripping fork oil on the rotor. Since I use my hands for legs sometimes and weigh 300lbs I have very good grip strength. When I rode, I frequently pulled cable levers hard enough to pull the cable through its fixing bolt, snapped brake cables twice, bent 2 levers, bent brake arms and mounting bolt on old style rim brakes, squeezed a cheap front rim inwards till it caught on the seam and flipped me over the bars.
Though I have never ridden a bike with disc brakes of any kind, I have a self preservation instinct to prefer hydraulic brakes.
 
I've never had any issues with motorcycle hydraulic brakes other than leaky fork seals dripping fork oil on the rotor.

We're not discussing motorcycle hydraulic brakes, which are DOT rated, highly engineered, and highly standardized in terms of fluids and maintenance techniques. We're talking about toys. Toys made by people who are more concerned with you buying replacements quickly than with you getting safe and reliable service from them.

I work at a community bike shop that runs on donated bikes, and about 4 out of 5 hydraulic brake equipped bikes come in with at least one brake completely non-functional (not even counting ones with contaminated pads and rotors). That's a much worse record than cable brakes, which to be fair also usually have some problems-- just not the kind of problems that result in no braking.
 
You're talking about a vehicle that has neither high speed, nor high load, nor high endurance demands.
That isn't quite true. It does also have to operate at low speeds, but this is intended to replace my power wheelchair and 1000cc motorcycle outdoors. I intend to have a range at least 10 miles. 24S2P LTO scib 20Ah cells, JK BMS with J1772 AC level 2 fast charging at 50A into batteries so I can get back on the road fast. Primary use is climbing up and down grassy hills at home, and through hunting land. One preliminary iteration had a two speed dog shifting drivetrain could theoretically exceed 30mph. The drivetrain was originally intended for car wheels and Timbren axleless suspension but that was too wide and heavy to pace walking and we couldn't fit the gearboxes inside the wheels like we wanted. The walking feature was added very late after the small car scale build began.

This is the scaled back lighter weight version, but the single front wheel will actually be replaced by a long trail 2 wheel robot for hands free steering making this trike actually 4 wheel drive. The 2 front steering wheels almost a foot behind the steerer tube will push the front end left when the left front decelerates and place both front wheels under the right front to prevent tipping. It isn't proven yet, but that is how I hope it will function. Fixing the fatal flaw of delta trikes and ATCs.
This project is weird enough that I figured bringing that up would just distract from the problem at hand.

Regen will scrub off the majority of speed, but if the left is more aggressive than the right it will suddenly pull. Likewise if a wheel breaks loose under acceleration, or climbing a side slope. I need good predictable modulation of left/right braking to help control the steering which is inherently twitchy and dangerous in this configuration. Spinning the rotor the wrong direction could cause one brake to heat and fade before the other, or one become grabby before the other. This stuff matters for my safety.

Sounds like maybe I should go with motorcycle parts instead which should simplify mirroring. What specific parts of bike hydraulics do you see failures on? The olives? I was wondering if I could keep these bike levers with motorcycle calipers and rotors. Then the line could be the fitting adapter. How can I find a spec for stroke volume on these levers short of cracking open the prebled levers and measuring what comes out when I squeeze?
 
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What specific parts of bike hydraulics do you see failures on? The olives?

Piston seals mostly. Also hoses. Common thing is for the calipers to get weepy and let the fluid get away, or else the master cylinders leak and release the brake while you're still holding the lever in.

I was wondering if I could keep these bike levers with motorcycle calipers and rotors.

It's more likely to work if you use one MC lever to grip two bicycle calipers. They never use the same size hoses and fittings, though.
 
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Piston seals I can see why. They have no external boot to keep grime away from the machined surfaces. A thin silicone sponge or accordion around the exposed pistons might help.
These plastic hoses are remarkable that they work at all.

Single lever is no good for me. I need differential braking to assist steering.
Most of the time hands will be off bars, steered and speed controlled by programming. If I need to grab the bars/brakes it is probably already an emergency. Brake switch activations are time stamped so I can review video to see if code can be improved.

I need to add a steering angle sensor. Any recommendations how to do that?
 
For anyone finding this thread in the future, these are about the only mirror image heavy hydraulic bicycle style brakes I've found Auriga E-Twin+ HD-E745
I don't want to spend $300 or have just one lever
another use case for such brakes are dual disc front e bike brakes, like dual disc front motorcycle brakes.
But since I'm not limited to bike parts, and I'm cheap, I'll try this
and try to make each L/R buggy caliper work with each L/R e bike lever I've already got from the first kit.
Mixing brake fluid types, dogs and cats living together, its pandemonium.
 
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