methods
1 GW
THIS IS A LONG ONE...
SKIP IT
Let me start by saying, that the only real meat and potatoes regulation I have come up with looks like this:
1) Throttle (Single Point Failure)
2) Battery (Charge, discharge, and fire)
1)
"The throttle shall be interlocked with a secondary, such that more than just the analog input can propel you forward" (as in some cases there is a clutch or tranny - so motor current not primary)
This is the situation where either a drip of water, a hair of wire, a failed POT, a failed Hall, a loose magnet, a broken spring, or some other failure in the throttle output or controller throttle input causes current to be sent to the motors when it is not wanted. This is VERY SERIOUS... as I have learned with two runaway bikes and... now that I am riding the fastest Zero around... eh...
Either a switch at the bottom of the throttle which opens with a broken throttle
A pair of differential hall signals
A secondary "foot pedal" or other switch like that found on a fork lift seat...
This is a REQUIREMENT and it is not found in all OEM vehicles... especially those found... a few years back.
2)
"The battery shall not catch on fire in the event that a user attempts to apply a charge voltage (or current) in excess of what is called for - so within reasonable limits - a contactor or reliable switch of some kind guarantees that charge will be terminated".
This should apply to a window of reason... such that yes... if someone applies 1000V to a 30V battery fire may occur... but if someone applies a 100V charger to a 36V battery... it can charge up in CC mode then blow open before any cells go critical.
We must bound the upper limit else components get really expensive. So... some percentage or some absolute value within a range... like:
Ebikes - can handle up to a 120V charge input without catching fire
Motorcycles - can handle up to a XXX charge input without catching fire
Cars - can handle....
Same for discharge - but only in the case where it could case fire - so mostly temperature sensor based.
ANYHOW... why I am blathering on about this is that I had my second runaway last night.
First Runaway:
It is posted somewhere here on the sphere.
I was running a Tadpole trike with a hall throttle
I was riding hard and pulling on the split-twist throttle
The throttle came loose...
The design of the hall throttles we use depend on the magnet being ON the hall sensor for 0% throttle output (1.2V or whatever)
When the throttle pulls away, the magnet pulls away, and you get FULL THROTTLE.
As you know... my bikes are POWERFUL... and that was a real handful to get control over.
The controller was not bound such that an over-throttle voltage could be detected... as with a higher end controller like a Sevcon... that accepts throttle inside of a window only:
Example: Sevcon Throttle voltage, 10V
Will accept 0.5V to 9.5V
0V to 0.5V equates to dead band
Above 9.5V equates to Fault
So... that is an example of a throttle based runaway situation.
I literally ripped my throttle apart during "normal use" and it resulted in FULL THROTTLE>
Next Story....
Last night I resurrected an Ebike out of the pile.
It had a controller I am not familiar with... sketch is how I would describe it... but in reality the components inside were high end. There were no expenses spared on caps, connectors, etc.
This controller had sat in the rain so long that the power switch rusted completely (I have pics of all this)
Some corrosion must have occurred in the throttle input section... and I suspect I know how it happened
DISPLAY THROTTLES - UNACCEPTABLE
Wiring Order: 5V, GND, THrottle, Full Pack Voltage
So... on this tiny JST-SM connector... with only 0.1" of space... we have 50V riding right next to our 0-5V throttle input
Yea... so this controller "runs away" in an inconsistent and unpredictable way.
It will be fine for 5 minutes... then all of a sudden it will start applying 30% or more throttle
If the throttle is removed via the connector... it will still keep going
Lucky on this bike that the front and rear hydraulic brakes, along with the heavy frame and second rider (two up), along with the low current limit, along with wet tarmac... allowed us to overcome the runaway... BUT IT HAPPENED.
Had it happened on one of my "serious ebikes" someone would be broken in the hospital.
Which... brings me around to the Zero Motorcycle.
I am currently riding a race prepped 2013 SR.
It is pimped out with a drilled motor and whatever the last "track day" guy could do to it.
IT IS POWERFUL
Like... THIS kind of powerful (time 1:30
[youtube]9o15EALghp0[/youtube]
Ok... not quote that powerful... but wreck your body powerful.
So - the modern Zero Motorcycles have multiple interlocks on the throttle (AFAIK).
But... when I was at Zero... eh... I am not so sure this was the case.
Having had a runaway bike before... I approached the then Director of EE with my concerns.
Basically... I was told that "He has never seen it happen and until he did it was not a problem"
Ok... he is not the director anymore.
I remember driving a box of throttles over the hill for the assembly line. I poked through them... they were... "meh quality".
If these earlier model bikes can still apply current to the motors in the event of a SINGLE POINT FAILURE... like a drip of water between the pins, a hair of wire shorting over, rubbing wires, induced current... well... that needs to be recalled and dealt with.
The throttle needs to be such that if there is a fault and the user lets go that no motor current is applied.
This may or may not depend on the spring... I am ok with it depending on the spring for now... as with an ICE engine.
Normally I keep things like this to myself - for a lot of reasons... but I have had some time to reflect on my time working as a Quality Engineer, what I dealt with, how my observations were dealt with, changes that took moving forward, changes that took moving backwards... One must be patient in these matters... but one must also follow up.
The Quality Engineer is the equivalent of an MP on a military base.
I don't care if you are a Bird colonel... if you have done wrong and I can prove it then I have the power to shut you down... at least temporarily until evidence can be collected.
I dont take the responsibility lightly and I am about the most lenient around safety you could possibly imagine - especially in this emerging market.
But...
When when we release something into the wild under the umbrella of OEM (meaning it looks like a refined and professional product with stylized plastics and brand names) we have a responsibility that lasts the lifetime of the product.
Food for thought.
Yes I realize this is a very large block of text. Its that way on purpose so that it will be skimmed over by most.
Note: I have no insight into Zero or what corrective action they may have taken by now. I am just compiling my Open Letter... out in the open.
I have never accepted a bribe in the form of Sex, Money, Favors, Goods, Favor, Contracts, Promises, leniency, or anything like it.
Thats important to say... as looks can be deceiving.
I now have in my possession (not under my ownership) two items that may appear to imply that my views have been skewed.
I assure you they have not.
* One is a 2013 SR. It is the property of Doug Smith (one of my Hero's) and I have access to the bike in order to try and swap out the unpotted cell boxes that are in it along with handling Registration. Doug has quietly been changing the minds of people all around him in an awesome way. He is an accomplished racer of all sorts of things... and he runs a serious hot-rod shop. When I was at the shop a few weeks ago there was a RHD Silvia there getting bigger turbos etc. Anyhow - Doug has thrown himself at the Electric Revolution like nobody else I know. His garage is a tornado of lead acid mowers being coverted over to Lithium, Bikes built up out of scrap, insane GoKarts, DIY batteries... yea... he has a Leaf in the driveway and 4 or 5 early Prius models... he is going for it and I respect him. When the tide turns... and ICE falls into the past... he will be at the front of the pack as far as I am concerned. But I digress...
* One is Justin's fancy Xtracycle that he left at my house after riding it from Canada. It has all sorts of bells and whistles... I rode it only once back around 2014 with my kid on the back. The deal was that I could play with the bike if I made it available to him the next time he was riding North from CA. At the time... he had ridden it down to CA then caught a plane to South America (IIRC) to unicycle across the continent with his lady friend. Anyhow - I just dug this bike up and rigged it up... as it was the fastest to get running... but lets be clear that I have never accepted favor from Ebikes.ca or Grin Tech in any form. Quite the opposite... I have tried to shower them with favor as I truly respect the man and the company and believe they can rock the world.
So my point:
I am stirring the shit pot again - as I do during transition periods. This may bring me under fire.
If anyone implies at any time that "methods can be bought"... well.. have that man/woman step forward.
My integrity, ethics, and opinion can not be skewed by material items.
I base my opinions and views on hundreds of hours of interaction with people/companies.
So.. wow that was a long one... now... whats is on the docket for the rest of the day?
-methods
P.S. I have an open dialog with some of the best people at Zero Motorcycles and I can say that some hero's there spend 120% of what they have all day every day trying to improve the product. I have every confidence that the product is safe and reliable. I also worked there... so I know that when you are supporting 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, working on pushing 2017 into production, designing 2018,... eh... yea... that is a lot to deal with... and under that much pressure people have to think "IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT"... and I truly understand. My hope is that someone will jump in and correct me :wink:
An SR can not have a single point failure. Its just too much bike for that. Prove me wrong please so I can delete this long ass ranting thread.
SKIP IT
Let me start by saying, that the only real meat and potatoes regulation I have come up with looks like this:
1) Throttle (Single Point Failure)
2) Battery (Charge, discharge, and fire)
1)
"The throttle shall be interlocked with a secondary, such that more than just the analog input can propel you forward" (as in some cases there is a clutch or tranny - so motor current not primary)
This is the situation where either a drip of water, a hair of wire, a failed POT, a failed Hall, a loose magnet, a broken spring, or some other failure in the throttle output or controller throttle input causes current to be sent to the motors when it is not wanted. This is VERY SERIOUS... as I have learned with two runaway bikes and... now that I am riding the fastest Zero around... eh...
Either a switch at the bottom of the throttle which opens with a broken throttle
A pair of differential hall signals
A secondary "foot pedal" or other switch like that found on a fork lift seat...
This is a REQUIREMENT and it is not found in all OEM vehicles... especially those found... a few years back.
2)
"The battery shall not catch on fire in the event that a user attempts to apply a charge voltage (or current) in excess of what is called for - so within reasonable limits - a contactor or reliable switch of some kind guarantees that charge will be terminated".
This should apply to a window of reason... such that yes... if someone applies 1000V to a 30V battery fire may occur... but if someone applies a 100V charger to a 36V battery... it can charge up in CC mode then blow open before any cells go critical.
We must bound the upper limit else components get really expensive. So... some percentage or some absolute value within a range... like:
Ebikes - can handle up to a 120V charge input without catching fire
Motorcycles - can handle up to a XXX charge input without catching fire
Cars - can handle....
Same for discharge - but only in the case where it could case fire - so mostly temperature sensor based.
ANYHOW... why I am blathering on about this is that I had my second runaway last night.
First Runaway:
It is posted somewhere here on the sphere.
I was running a Tadpole trike with a hall throttle
I was riding hard and pulling on the split-twist throttle
The throttle came loose...
The design of the hall throttles we use depend on the magnet being ON the hall sensor for 0% throttle output (1.2V or whatever)
When the throttle pulls away, the magnet pulls away, and you get FULL THROTTLE.
As you know... my bikes are POWERFUL... and that was a real handful to get control over.
The controller was not bound such that an over-throttle voltage could be detected... as with a higher end controller like a Sevcon... that accepts throttle inside of a window only:
Example: Sevcon Throttle voltage, 10V
Will accept 0.5V to 9.5V
0V to 0.5V equates to dead band
Above 9.5V equates to Fault
So... that is an example of a throttle based runaway situation.
I literally ripped my throttle apart during "normal use" and it resulted in FULL THROTTLE>
Next Story....
Last night I resurrected an Ebike out of the pile.
It had a controller I am not familiar with... sketch is how I would describe it... but in reality the components inside were high end. There were no expenses spared on caps, connectors, etc.
This controller had sat in the rain so long that the power switch rusted completely (I have pics of all this)
Some corrosion must have occurred in the throttle input section... and I suspect I know how it happened
DISPLAY THROTTLES - UNACCEPTABLE
Wiring Order: 5V, GND, THrottle, Full Pack Voltage
So... on this tiny JST-SM connector... with only 0.1" of space... we have 50V riding right next to our 0-5V throttle input
Yea... so this controller "runs away" in an inconsistent and unpredictable way.
It will be fine for 5 minutes... then all of a sudden it will start applying 30% or more throttle
If the throttle is removed via the connector... it will still keep going
Lucky on this bike that the front and rear hydraulic brakes, along with the heavy frame and second rider (two up), along with the low current limit, along with wet tarmac... allowed us to overcome the runaway... BUT IT HAPPENED.
Had it happened on one of my "serious ebikes" someone would be broken in the hospital.
Which... brings me around to the Zero Motorcycle.
I am currently riding a race prepped 2013 SR.
It is pimped out with a drilled motor and whatever the last "track day" guy could do to it.
IT IS POWERFUL
Like... THIS kind of powerful (time 1:30
[youtube]9o15EALghp0[/youtube]
Ok... not quote that powerful... but wreck your body powerful.
So - the modern Zero Motorcycles have multiple interlocks on the throttle (AFAIK).
But... when I was at Zero... eh... I am not so sure this was the case.
Having had a runaway bike before... I approached the then Director of EE with my concerns.
Basically... I was told that "He has never seen it happen and until he did it was not a problem"
Ok... he is not the director anymore.
I remember driving a box of throttles over the hill for the assembly line. I poked through them... they were... "meh quality".
If these earlier model bikes can still apply current to the motors in the event of a SINGLE POINT FAILURE... like a drip of water between the pins, a hair of wire shorting over, rubbing wires, induced current... well... that needs to be recalled and dealt with.
The throttle needs to be such that if there is a fault and the user lets go that no motor current is applied.
This may or may not depend on the spring... I am ok with it depending on the spring for now... as with an ICE engine.
Normally I keep things like this to myself - for a lot of reasons... but I have had some time to reflect on my time working as a Quality Engineer, what I dealt with, how my observations were dealt with, changes that took moving forward, changes that took moving backwards... One must be patient in these matters... but one must also follow up.
The Quality Engineer is the equivalent of an MP on a military base.
I don't care if you are a Bird colonel... if you have done wrong and I can prove it then I have the power to shut you down... at least temporarily until evidence can be collected.
I dont take the responsibility lightly and I am about the most lenient around safety you could possibly imagine - especially in this emerging market.
But...
When when we release something into the wild under the umbrella of OEM (meaning it looks like a refined and professional product with stylized plastics and brand names) we have a responsibility that lasts the lifetime of the product.
Food for thought.
Yes I realize this is a very large block of text. Its that way on purpose so that it will be skimmed over by most.
Note: I have no insight into Zero or what corrective action they may have taken by now. I am just compiling my Open Letter... out in the open.
I have never accepted a bribe in the form of Sex, Money, Favors, Goods, Favor, Contracts, Promises, leniency, or anything like it.
Thats important to say... as looks can be deceiving.
I now have in my possession (not under my ownership) two items that may appear to imply that my views have been skewed.
I assure you they have not.
* One is a 2013 SR. It is the property of Doug Smith (one of my Hero's) and I have access to the bike in order to try and swap out the unpotted cell boxes that are in it along with handling Registration. Doug has quietly been changing the minds of people all around him in an awesome way. He is an accomplished racer of all sorts of things... and he runs a serious hot-rod shop. When I was at the shop a few weeks ago there was a RHD Silvia there getting bigger turbos etc. Anyhow - Doug has thrown himself at the Electric Revolution like nobody else I know. His garage is a tornado of lead acid mowers being coverted over to Lithium, Bikes built up out of scrap, insane GoKarts, DIY batteries... yea... he has a Leaf in the driveway and 4 or 5 early Prius models... he is going for it and I respect him. When the tide turns... and ICE falls into the past... he will be at the front of the pack as far as I am concerned. But I digress...
* One is Justin's fancy Xtracycle that he left at my house after riding it from Canada. It has all sorts of bells and whistles... I rode it only once back around 2014 with my kid on the back. The deal was that I could play with the bike if I made it available to him the next time he was riding North from CA. At the time... he had ridden it down to CA then caught a plane to South America (IIRC) to unicycle across the continent with his lady friend. Anyhow - I just dug this bike up and rigged it up... as it was the fastest to get running... but lets be clear that I have never accepted favor from Ebikes.ca or Grin Tech in any form. Quite the opposite... I have tried to shower them with favor as I truly respect the man and the company and believe they can rock the world.
So my point:
I am stirring the shit pot again - as I do during transition periods. This may bring me under fire.
If anyone implies at any time that "methods can be bought"... well.. have that man/woman step forward.
My integrity, ethics, and opinion can not be skewed by material items.
I base my opinions and views on hundreds of hours of interaction with people/companies.
So.. wow that was a long one... now... whats is on the docket for the rest of the day?
-methods
P.S. I have an open dialog with some of the best people at Zero Motorcycles and I can say that some hero's there spend 120% of what they have all day every day trying to improve the product. I have every confidence that the product is safe and reliable. I also worked there... so I know that when you are supporting 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, working on pushing 2017 into production, designing 2018,... eh... yea... that is a lot to deal with... and under that much pressure people have to think "IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT"... and I truly understand. My hope is that someone will jump in and correct me :wink:
An SR can not have a single point failure. Its just too much bike for that. Prove me wrong please so I can delete this long ass ranting thread.
