Sabvoton 72200 unlock help

[Sattva Ram]

Can someone help with setting the parameters for my unlocked 72200? I want battery amps to be 350. I set the "Dc limit current to 350A" the boost dc current" to 350A. I think it's fine so far. The maximum "max phase current" I can set is 600. I think it's also fine considering that it was 450A stock. (Maybe I set it to 580 so that it stays below the 600amps "protected phase current" since I cannot set the "protected phase current" higher than 600 either.) Now the question is what should I set my "rated phase current"?

What do these numbers even mean I couldnt really figure it based on the manual?

Also as I've seen this controller only measures phase current. How does it even measure battery amps? Does it calculate it? If it only measures phase current then why bother with battery amps anyway? Wouldnt it just be more straightforward then to set phase amps alone? Or battery amps alone?

What if my battery amps settings are not in sync with the phase amps? Like it came with 200 dc limit current and only 120 rated phase current stock, while even the manual says that the rated phase can be as much as the dc limit current. It seems to me that battery amps and phase amps should be in sync. I mean that just seems logical.

I am kinda confused with this controller. So far I only had a grintime I patched a nice solder on its shunt and that was it amps galore. I am not used to this kinda sophistication. Some pro could enlighten me...

Thanks

 

[john61ct]

Not a pro, but some basic concepts you are confused about

Phase amps = motor amps, you set the peak current you want the controller to pass through to the motor.

Since V * A = Watts

the actual power total sent to the motor depends on the voltage

and volts depends on the motor rpm at that time.

Now to battery amps. The controller is reducing the voltage to match the rpm as above.

Since V * A = W this means current needs to go much higher when power is needed at slow speeds

So, amps basically are needed for torque

at startup, when the speed (rpm) is slow, or climbing a steep hill or carrying a heavy load or pushing against heavy wind.

You must make sure that your motor can handle the phase current you are sending, heat can rise so fast that you cause damage.

Or use a circuit like Cycle Analyst v3 that limits battery current (slows or stops the motor) based on a temp sensor embedded in the motor's internals, near the windings.

Battery amps settings are never the same as phase amps, always much lower.

Limiting **battery** current to 350A - are you sure the pack you have can support that? If battery voltage drops too low at that rate, it will be a very short ride, and you will wear out the pack quickly.

A lower battery current say 200A, set by CAv3 to protect the battery lifespan, will also reduce the phase current controller the controller can produce, to maybe 350-400A ?

unless you set a lower phase amps in order to protect the motor, then that in turn might stop the battery amps from rising to the limit you set.

Whichever limiting setpoint is reached first is the "active" one

 

[Sattva Ram]

Yeah I suspected that something like this is the case. Anyway I keep experimenting. The bike is nowhere near ready so I cannot test it in real life. I'd just like a rough estimate as to what to set it to. We'll see what it does in real life.

My problem is how the heck does it limit battery current when only the phase wires are monitored? It knows jack about the amps in the battery. It's still a puzzle to me. So to me this whole separation between the phase and battery amps would only make sense if it monitored both.

It'll be an 8kwh pack likely water cooled. 350 would flow for a very short time anyway. I mean this bike will probably reach the top speed in maybe 5 secs with 350amps then it tapers off to around hundred amps continuous. Both the controller and motor is temperature protected I'll also stick a whole lotta CPU coolers to the controller plus great airflow. I am not worried it should handle it.

 

[john61ct]

Stretching the definition of a "bike" there!

Electric motorcycle maybe?

Amps are not measuring anything "in" the battery.

How do you know the controller does not have the ability to measure the current coming from the battery?

It is the device pulling (requesting) those amps after all. . .

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Can someone help with setting the parameters for my unlocked 72200? I want battery amps to be 350. I set the "Dc limit current to 350A" the boost dc current" to 350A. I think it's fine so far. The maximum "max phase current" I can set is 600. I think it's also fine considering that it was 450A stock. (Maybe I set it to 580 so that it stays below the 600amps "protected phase current" since I cannot set the "protected phase current" higher than 600 either.) Now the question is what should I set my "rated phase current"?

Whuuut????
I'm using the unlocked 72200 Sabvoton for years, but I never tried to push it so hard, ever! Does it hold??
On my setup I've never tried anything above 220A Rated DC current / 510A maximum phase current.
I forgot what was my value for the rated phase current, I'll try to check for you.

Well if you can go that high without everything blowing up, then maybe I should not be so conservative after all. And I thought I wasn't :lol:

Also as I've seen this controller only measures phase current. How does it even measure battery amps? Does it calculate it? If it only measures phase current then why bother with battery amps anyway? Wouldnt it just be more straightforward then to set phase amps alone? Or battery amps alone?

I have no idea how this controller senses the battery current, but I know that it does a pretty good job at it since my BMS shows exactly 210Amps being drawn from the battery during acceleration, which is what I've set right now as the rated DC current (battery current) in the controller.
Battery amps are really super important because batterys can't supply an infinite amount of current, otherwise they get destroyed pretty quickly. So don't set a 350A rated DC current if your battery is not capable of outputing this kind of current reliably.

What if my battery amps settings are not in sync with the phase amps? Like it came with 200 dc limit current and only 120 rated phase current stock, while even the manual says that the rated phase can be as much as the dc limit current. It seems to me that battery amps and phase amps should be in sync. I mean that just seems logical.

john61ct explained this part better than I ever could

 

[Sattva Ram]

Stretching the definition of a "bike" there!

Electric motorcycle maybe?

Amps are not measuring anything "in" the battery.

How do you know the controller does not have the ability to measure the current coming from the battery?

It is the device pulling (requesting) those amps after all. . .

https://images.app.goo.gl/vpyiHkXyb9wb5xsG9

Only the phase wires go under the current sensor. So to me this whole bA pA thing doesnt really make much sense.

Of course of course it's a motorbike. (Which is also many times referred to as bike...)

 

[Sattva Ram]

Can someone help with setting the parameters for my unlocked 72200? I want battery amps to be 350. I set the "Dc limit current to 350A" the boost dc current" to 350A. I think it's fine so far. The maximum "max phase current" I can set is 600. I think it's also fine considering that it was 450A stock. (Maybe I set it to 580 so that it stays below the 600amps "protected phase current" since I cannot set the "protected phase current" higher than 600 either.) Now the question is what should I set my "rated phase current"?

Whuuut????
I'm using the unlocked 72200 Sabvoton for years, but I never tried to push it so hard, ever! Does it hold??
On my setup I've never tried anything above 220A Rated DC current / 510A maximum phase current.
I forgot what was my value for the rated phase current, I'll try to check for you.

Well if you can go that high without everything blowing up, then maybe I should not be so conservative after all. And I thought I wasn't :lol:

Also as I've seen this controller only measures phase current. How does it even measure battery amps? Does it calculate it? If it only measures phase current then why bother with battery amps anyway? Wouldnt it just be more straightforward then to set phase amps alone? Or battery amps alone?

I have no idea how this controller senses the battery current, but I know that it does a pretty good job at it since my BMS shows exactly 210Amps being drawn from the battery during acceleration, which is what I've set right now as the rated DC current (battery current) in the controller.
Battery amps are really super important because batterys can't supply an infinite amount of current, otherwise they get destroyed pretty quickly. So don't set a 350A rated DC current if your battery is not capable of outputing this kind of current reliably.

What if my battery amps settings are not in sync with the phase amps? Like it came with 200 dc limit current and only 120 rated phase current stock, while even the manual says that the rated phase can be as much as the dc limit current. It seems to me that battery amps and phase amps should be in sync. I mean that just seems logical.

john61ct explained this part better than I ever could

C'mon. Plus 10 Amps? Of course it is also dependent where your controller is located. If it's hidden then you are right for not giving it more. Mine will be under the battery box with added CPU coolers fully exposed to the airflow. Thing is, these controllers are foolproof. They are designed that even if you hide it from the airflow put a hairdryer on it in the 40 degree summer heat even then they should work, that's how they set the the factory settings because that's how it's safe for they cannot know what the buyer will do with it. I am confident that it will handle the 350 amps. Of course 350 amps is 3 times the heat produced than 200amps but also factor in that 350 can only flow for a very short period. It also protects itself from overheating so what can go wrong? At most it shuts off if it's too much (of course huge burst currents might cause some surprises, but I dont think 350 is that territory). However the phase wires might be worth thickening if you pull 300ish territories. I had a motor once where the insulation on the phase wires got cracked in a scale like manner. That'd be a bummer, but it was the teflon type insulation which tends to harden at high heat. As I've seen it the sabvoton has pvc which rather melts. Now of course neither is good. So maybe it's best that the phase wires are replaced, or some additional wires are spliced to them...Again there's nothing to be afraid of 350 amps is a rocket. It cannot possible flow for too long a time before the terminal velocity is reached. The only situation where it could flow for a sustained period is steep climbs or straight racing the bastard. But that would overheat the motor anyway I think before the controller gets overheated.

It's all about cooling. Buy some CPU coolers and glue them onto the belly of the controller with some heat plaster. (Tho it's only good if you can expose the thing to the airflow. Which might look stupid if you have the vertical mount right behind the front wheel. Cause then you'll have to place it with the underside towards the front wheel.)

 

[john61ct]

Whuuut????
I'm using the unlocked 72200 Sabvoton for years, but I never tried to push it so hard, ever! Does it hold??
…
Well if you can go that high without everything blowing up, then maybe I should not be so conservative after all. And I thought I wasn't

You aren't, and I'm pretty sure **none** of their components can actually handle even close to those current levels.

Sattva Ram,

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems clear to me you are even more of a noob than me, and are figuring out this stuff at a 101 level as you go along.

Best to be clear about that so you don't lead others astray!

The reason vendors "lock" controllers is not always just to make higher profits.

Another, very strong and valid reason, is to prevent noobish users from falsely thinking equipment can be reliably run close to the "rated maximums" for any length of time.

If you are going to really experiment to find out what the true limits are, buy 3-5 units of each component, will maybe be enough if you are careful.

Only the phase wires go under the current sensor. So to me this whole bA pA thing doesnt really make much sense.

Dui, ni shuo de dui is a true technical expert compared to both of us (thanks for the kind words!)

> I have no idea how this controller senses the battery current, but I know that it does a pretty good job at it

 

[Sattva Ram]

Whuuut????
I'm using the unlocked 72200 Sabvoton for years, but I never tried to push it so hard, ever! Does it hold??
…
Well if you can go that high without everything blowing up, then maybe I should not be so conservative after all. And I thought I wasn't

You aren't, and I'm pretty sure **none** of their components can actually handle even close to those current levels.

Sattva Ram,

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems clear to me you are even more of a noob than me, and are figuring out this stuff at a 101 level as you go along.

Best to be clear about that so you don't lead others astray!

The reason vendors "lock" controllers is not always just to make higher profits.

Another, very strong and valid reason, is to prevent noobish users from falsely thinking equipment can be reliably run close to the "rated maximums" for any length of time.

If you are going to really experiment to find out what the true limits are, buy 3-5 units of each component, will maybe be enough if you are careful.

Only the phase wires go under the current sensor. So to me this whole bA pA thing doesnt really make much sense.

Dui, ni shuo de dui is a true technical expert compared to both of us (thanks for the kind words!)

> I have no idea how this controller senses the battery current, but I know that it does a pretty good job at it

People here run votol 150s at 300bA. So I guess I am gonna be fine. I ran grintimes at 3 times the factory rating not one fet blew so far. The seller laughed at me when I told. He aint no laughing no more...

I think you are just too chicken to fully utilize the sabvoton controller.

Yeah you said the key words. "For any lenght of time". How long do you think 350Amps will flow with a bike the top speed of which is 120 kph? There you have the answer.

 

[Sattva Ram]

When designing these things the "holy trinity" has to be considered. Battery Controller Motor. Which overheats first? The great design is if they overheat exactly at the same time. The more they overheat differently the shittier the design. Now the problem is that you cannot know this in advance. Sure you can have a ballpark estimate, but at the end of the day all these things should be tested in real life to know.

 

[Sattva Ram]

I dont think I am leading anyone astray. Do I come off as a sabvoton expert? It's my first no budget controller. I know one thing tho these factory ratings on controllers are a joke. They are simply illegit the minute you properly cool the controller. They are only set so the controller be operational even if you hide it in the subframe and wrap the dam thing in Styrofoam in the summer heat. That's how it's logical. Just imagine if you are a controller manufacturer. Would you say? 350 amps but only if you expose the thing to the airflow otherwise only 200 amps? No you simply dont allow more than 200 amps cause you never know what cooling the controller will have so you play safe and for the racers who know what they are doing - and not dumb enough to not cool the controller properly - you allow the full potential of the controller.

 

[john61ct]

you keep saying "grintimes", what do you think that means?

 

[Sattva Ram]

You imply that they are more tunable than sabvotons? I find it kinda hard to believe...(but maybe you know something I dont after all all I know is the grins...)

What I dont like about the sabvotons is their heatsink. If you mount them normally - perpendicular to the ground heatsink facing away from airflow - the heatsink might not get enough air. But mine will be patched with an awful lotta cpu heatsinks and it will be put under the battery box parallel to the ground not perpendicular to it. So between the controller's heatsink and the battery box there will sandwiched extra cpu heatsinks. All the air will pass through the cpu heatsinks directly cooling the heatsink of the controller. I think I'll also thicken the phase wires inside. I think it will be fine. Again for how long does 350 flow? Few secs. The only problem is if fets also can fail for simply too much current without being hot. In other words simply the amp burst killing it without it being even too hot. Tho I am not aware that fets couldnt handle large burst-like currents if they arent overheated. So I guess as long as I can keep them cool I can do whatever I want with them. Their death is only heat as far as I know.

I wont race the bike only occasional red-to-red accelerations (however I used to be a track racer so it's kinda hard to stay my wrist...)

Anyway i am only fcked if the soft electronics shits itself that's pretty much unrepairable. But as long as only the large current part fails I am fine.

(Kinda regret buying this expensive controller. Maybe I should have just bought the cheapest kelly for 80 bux and make a separate fet board for it. That way the soft electronics and the large current part are completely separated. Anyway these controllers are ridiculously overpriced. 5 times the money for some extra fets and aluminium relative to the small ones. Open robbery...manufacturing costs are almost the same sticker price 5x as much...However I think making a larger fet board would only mean some efficiency gain for I think the motor is the limiting factor in my case. So I think the sabvoton tuned to 300-350-ish amps can easily serve this motor, anything bigger than this controller would require a bigger motor anyway. So I think it's a great match for the qs 4kw mid. Even this 350 amps is waay too much for this motor it can only sustain it for a short while maybe 120 continuous is what it can sustain anyway and 120 amps continuous for this controller is surely laughing stock category (tho we'll see what the fan can add to the motor's performace if indeed it can be installed in the motor).

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

C'mon. Plus 10 Amps?

Well, actually 210Amps is 60Amps more than what my controller is originally rated for since it's the same hardware as the 72150 and 72200 wasn't really existing at that time, it was something you could get by asking the factory directly as a "no guarantee" kinda deal. Mine is quite old, maybe 5 years, so I'm not sure if the new versions are any different, might be.
That's good to know that they can reach that kind of power, I'll give it a try after I'll finish my new roadster. Probably not up to 350A but maybe 250-260.

Cooling isn' t an issue, I've watercooled my scooter's controller before so that's no biggie. But as you said in your last post, cooling doesn't help if you get passed the point where the current burst are too much for the mosfets, so finding the limit is sometimes risky,

I'm not really a technical expert BTW, just a guy who made a few builds and used Sabvotons for a while, so everything I say isn't always gold :lol:

Anyway, keep us informed, that's interesting to follow!

 

[Sattva Ram]

Ohhh sorry. I thought you had a 72200. For a 72150 210A is perfect IMO, that's quite decent. I am not saying btw that 350 will work. So I am not trying to coerce anyone to destroy their controller. I just thought that plus 10 amps for the 72200 is quite ridiculous. But it seems that in your case it's plus 60 amps for the 72150.

Yes that's my only concern too that too much amps might be able to destroy even ice cold fets because the core temperature of the fet can rise too high before it could transfer the heat to the heatsink. I am not worried tho that I wont be able to cool down the 350 amps generally and discipate the overall waste heat, but I am not sure if the current bursts wont destroy the fets even when the heatsinks are cold. Anyway maybe I stop at 300A 350 seems a bit much even for me.

 

[john61ct]

Well I guess I am (as usual) the noobiest member here, my apologies Sattva Ram, I had no idea we were talking racing motorbikes, I'm a pure utility slow cargo guy atm and want to keep pedaling sometimes.

Since this may well become an authoritative thread for Sabvoton, some outstanding questions from my notes, obviously answers welcome from any members:

Apparently there is no single manufacturing or reselling "controlling brand owner" for Sabvoton, and perhaps there never was? Just a cloned "type of design", build quality varies widely between makers?

What vendors are known to be consistently good? One maker uses the label "MQCON", they any good?

Not buying based on price, happy to pay more for longevity / reliability - links would be appreciated, especially for the bigger amps ones

Apparently the "Zombiess variant" (of which model?) is required to get both FOC and variable regen? Any links to find out more details on where to get that, or a DIY cookbook?

OP, the unlocked 96120 can apparently take 400+ battery amps and 600 phase amps long-term and reliably, did you have a technical reason for not going that way? Often used to control the QS273.

Dunno if you've seen this?
https://laebike.com/blogs/information/76664133-sabvoton-sinewave-controller

By "grintimes" did you mean Grin Tech's little PhaseRunner controller?

 

[Sattva Ram]

No I meant the greentimes.