Safe's Electric Bike Project #001

[NickF23]

After trashing nearly every thread in these forums with your ramblings, the one time you can make a legitimate post somewhere ...you decide against it. At least you're consistent.

This threads is Safe's bike project thread, selling the bike is thus part of the story of the bike and therefore there's no reason not to post its sale here. Aren't you also being randomly offtopic in the same manner that you accuse him of? How does the saying go?

"first taketh the major short circuit off your own bike, and then you can safely look over at the slighlty loose wiring on your brothers"

 

[safe]

Aren't you also being randomly off topic in the same manner that you accuse him of?

Hey thanks for sticking up for me. There are a few people that post on this site that seem to like the confrontational aspect of it. This is after all a "blog" and "blogs" can be messy when people hold differing opinions.

I never hold any ill will to any of them... I've found that whatever is pissing them off (usually not even related to me) tends to cool off with time.

There was a thread over in the Battery Area that someone created in the hopes of it being a place to celebrate the "victory" of Ping batteries. I posted that before you celebrate you ought to "out perform" this bike... Project #001... and be able to go past 3,000 miles since that seems to be about the best SLA can achieve. That provoked a firestorm because it infringed on the greatness of Pings batteries from the start. (what if they don't even make it to 3,000... are they a failure?)

Ooops!

This place can be like a soap opera sometimes... :lol:

 

[EMF]

After trashing nearly every thread in these forums with your ramblings, the one time you can make a legitimate post somewhere ...you decide against it. At least you're consistent.

This threads is Safe's bike project thread, selling the bike is thus part of the story of the bike and therefore there's no reason not to post its sale here. Aren't you also being randomly offtopic in the same manner that you accuse him of? How does the saying go?

"first taketh the major short circuit off your own bike, and then you can safely look over at the slighlty loose wiring on your brothers"

It's not off topic at all. It's an accurate observation I made after reading a statement in the thread. Never heard that saying either. Maybe you just made it up. At any rate, my bike runs fine. But there is something wrong with Safes.

Aren't you also being randomly off topic in the same manner that you accuse him of?

Hey thanks for sticking up for me. There are a few people that post on this site that seem to like the confrontational aspect of it. This is after all a "blog" and "blogs" can be messy when people hold differing opinions.

I never hold any ill will to any of them... I've found that whatever is pissing them off (usually not even related to me) tends to cool off with time.

There was a thread over in the Battery Area that someone created in the hopes of it being a place to celebrate the "victory" of Ping batteries. I posted that before you celebrate you ought to "out perform" this bike... Project #001... and be able to go past 3,000 miles since that seems to be about the best SLA can achieve. That provoked a firestorm because it infringed on the greatness of Pings batteries from the start. (what if they don't even make it to 3,000... are they a failure?)

Ooops!

This place can be like a soap opera sometimes... :lol:

This place is not a "blog" it's a forum. A forum that is trying to develop a knowledgebase for personal EV projects. The reason folks are getting upset, is you are diluting its usefulness and turning it into a "soap opera".

One day this international forum could be of great use to those that google upon it... or not.

 

[safe]

This place is not a "blog" it's a forum. A forum that is trying to develop a knowledgebase for personal EV projects.

This idea has been debated many times before. All people are not in agreement with your assertion. Think about it honestly... really think... if this place were more like "Battery University":

http://www.batteryuniversity.com

...then the human interactivity would be missing. It would be like sitting in a lecture and listening to a speech.

What makes more sense (and what actually happens here) is that people are free to have their "free speech" on things that they are interested in. The moment you start to limit peoples free speech it starts to reduce the usefulness of something like this.

I've had no problems understanding threads... I'm at a loss for why you think other people are unable to navigate this forum. People are not so dumb that they cannot follow a thread... when you see that a posting starts off with a personal dialog (like this one) the intelligent reader will know to skip over it.

This particular posting has no obvious value other than to sort out a personal disagreement about forum usage.

...people would see that and skip past it.

No technical jargon... no read... it's that simple.

 

[TylerDurden]

Firestorm?... safe hardly rates a fart, let alone a "firestorm". He was simply told to buzz off a thread about LifePO4: user mileage-reports. Safe has never used anything but SLA, and had no business posting about SLA on that thread... the OP and other Li users had to abandon the thread and start another.

BTW, even a Barbie bike can go 52mph downhill. :lol:

 

[Miles]

...then the human interactivity would be missing. It would be like sitting in a lecture and listening to a speech.

 

[safe]

Variably Aged Batteries

Getting back to the actual bike...

With two brand new 12v 18ah cells and two old 12v 38ah cells you get some pretty weird dynamics with the way they behave. The new cells start off with a resting voltage of 13.0 volts or even slightly above. The old cells start off with a resting voltage of 12.9 or even 12.8 volts... so they are definitely in decline.

On my last ride I went in 36 volt mode most of the way (about 8 miles) and then switched to 48 volt mode at the end. (4 miles) The final numbers were 12.1 volts for the new cells and 12.0 volts for the old cells. That means that I could have switched to 48 volt mode a mile or two earlier and ended with a balanced result. As these older cells age I will actually need to run in 48 volt more often... which is nice because going 40 mph on the flat is more fun than 35 mph on the flat.

The old cells are so far down from their original that in 36 volt mode I can't get to the old speeds. But with 48 volt mode those old cells (which have maybe 75% of their original capacity left in them) are able to give the old power back and more. It's a good blend... but it's always in transistion...

 

[TylerDurden]

The big problem would be getting the bike from here to Florida. Driving here to get it is a big deal (and no longer cheap) and shipping it would be a big hassle because it's not going to fit into a box very easily. The batteries would probably be cheaper to just remove than to try to ship.

Hmmm... I have a trailer and some free time....

I could pick it up, make some videos to post about its true performance... then take the gears and other crap off of it and put in some lithium and an X5.

 

[safe]

Sometimes it would just be so much easier to have a filter...

This is a textbook case of a posting of no redeeming value.

 

[safe]

A Fast Morning Ride

100% in 48 volt mode.

Trip Miles - 10.56 miles

Trip Time - 23.02 minutes

Total Miles - 3,540 miles

Which makes my average trip speed - 27.52 mph

Top Speed - 50 mph (on a 100-200 ft high downhill)

Top Speed on the flat - About 38 to 40 mph

Top Speed up a hill - About 20 mph

Protection Worn - Full Leathers, Helmet, Gloves (for you kids out there thinking of doing anything like this)

 

[safe]

Almost 28 mph

While it would be easy to find some velodrome somewhere and just go in circles to get an average, I've been trying to find the fastest loop to ride that is still interesting with good turns, hills, etc. I did the same one as before and managed a minor improvement.

22 min and 49 sec = 1320 + 49 = 1369 sec

Seconds in an hour = 3600 sec

Distance = 10.53 miles

(3600 / 1369) * 10.53 = 27.690 average mph.

Jeez... I was hoping for 28 mph average...

P.S: I've passed eight policemen in the last two days and not a single one took any interest in harrassing me. Which makes the streets "safer" than online blogging. :lol:

 

[TylerDurden]

While it would be easy to find some velodrome somewhere and just go in circles to get an average...

Good luck trying to get your electric motorcycle into the only velodrome in the state.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[flip_normal]

Good luck trying to get your electric motorcycle into the only velodrome in the state.

Actually it's not such a bad idea. I've always wondered why they still use a gas bike to lead the field round to get them up to speed on these rolling start races. Surely this is an ideal situation to use an electric motorbike instead. You may need a few extra volts though Safe, those guys can really move.

 

[safe]

Surely this is an ideal situation to use an electric motorbike instead.

They use full sized motorcycles or scooters right now... those weigh 200-300 lbs. I agree that electric scooters or motorcycles would be a good thing to add to the velodrome as a way of supporting green technologies. It can't hurt.

My bike is more of the road racer variety, so it's not intended for same speed usage. The whole idea of a road racer is to have variable terrain and stopping, starting and turning.

 

[marty]

2 - 40s for Safe's Electric Bike Project #001. Would have gave you 3, but you got no pedals

 

[safe]

2 - 40s for Safe's Electric Bike Project #001. Would have gave you 3, but you got no pedals

Don't worry...

Project #003 already has pedals and everything past that will too. This first basic build took two months of work non-stop and then over the course of two more years hundreds of hours to modify things until it was just right. Pedals increase the complexity a great deal and that means more time.

Project #002 probably was a mistake to have started because I had not realized that pedals were a requirement for the Federal Electric Bike Law:

750 watt power
Must have pedals
20 mph top speed (at point of sale anyway)

...from Project #003 forward I'll be legal everywhere.

Missouri allows three horsepower and no pedals... so I'm fine where I live... Project #002 should be insanely fast for an electric bicycle... as fast as 50 mph on the flat. (projected)

It's kind of amazing to realize that I've been working on this stuff since the summer of 2006...

 

[TylerDurden]

I had not realized that pedals were a requirement for the Federal Electric Bike Law

You mean the Consumer Protection Law that regulates sales?

 

[safe]

You mean the Consumer Protection Law that regulates sales?

If some renegade local government wants to challenge the intent of the Federal Law they could do it. Places like Berkeley California (or Boulder Colorado) do stuff like that all the time... change their local rules just to piss people off. But generally speaking the mechanism they are using (focus on the sale) is the most practical way for the Federal Government to regulate things based on how the system works.

If a manufacturer cannot sell their product easily (because it fails to receive Federal Protection) then you are fighting an uphill battle from the start. If you go along then you get along.

As the old saying goes:

"Hit them in the pocketbook."

...that's the kind of law that tends to stick.

 

[TylerDurden]

If some renegade local government wants to challenge the intent of the Federal Law they could do it.

The portion of the Consumer Protection Act regarding ebikes permits their sale as bicycles, rather than motor-vehicles.

• SECTION 1. CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY ACT.
  The Consumer Product Safety Act (15 U.S.C. 2051 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following:
  ``low-speed electric bicycles
  ``Sec. 38. <<NOTE: 15 USC 2085.>> (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section 3(a)(1) and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and part 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.
  ``(b) For the purpose of this section, the term `low-speed electric bicycle' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.
  ``(c) To further protect the safety of consumers who ride low-speed electric bicycles, the Commission may promulgate new or amended requirements applicable to such vehicles as necessary and appropriate.
  ``(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements referred to in subsection (a).''.

No state can permit sales of more powerful ebikes without them being declared "for off-road use only", or fitting them with equipment that satisfies MV regulations.

 

[safe]

The portion of the Consumer Protection Act regarding ebikes permits their sale as bicycles, rather than motor-vehicles.

We've been over this a thousand times. (no... a million times... billion)

The Federal Law allows a manufacturer to sell an ebike in all 50 states so that it is legally recognized as a bicycle. Local governments like Bezerkeley "could" get freaky and mess with their own local laws, but the tendency is for local governments to adhere to the higher ruling.

You can hash out the legality all you want but the famously used term "bottom line" way to look at it is that any manufacturuer that overlooks the law does so at their peril.

Smart decision - Obey the law.

Dumb decision - Break the law.

...the exception is places like my state of Missouri that basically let's you do whatever you damn well please. It's addictive to have so much freedom, but not good when you look at the big picture. (so I need to go with pedals in future bikes)

I'm a "law and order guy" and not a "law breaker".

If other people want to venture down paths that are known in advance to have no legal future that's up to them. Maybe one day there will be an ebike racing division that will allow these "formula" one off's to be raced on the track, but for the foreseable future the Federal Law is the "spec" we all need to work with... at least if you have any pretensions of developing for a real market.

 

[TylerDurden]

We've been over this a thousand times.

Yet, you still don't get it.

CSPA regulates all sales. You can't sell a bomb in Missouri and call it 'safe'.

State and local laws control the roads and what can run on them.

 

[safe]

State and local laws control the roads and what can run on them.

Again, we've been over this many times.

Local laws can be as nutty as they choose to be if they so desire. Berkeley and Boulder being examples of places that are proud of their defiant local laws.

However, most states allow bicycles to travel more or less anywhere they want, on roads (in the bike lane), on bike trails, but usually not on sidewalks. So whatever laws apply to a regular bike you might buy at WalMart will apply to an ebike that satisfies the Federal Law. It's just that simple in most places.

If you go back a page you would see that in a two day period I had a total of eight policemen (well at least one was a woman) that directly viewed my bike, with me in brightly colored leathers, riding down the road at 30 mph or more. Not a single one took the slightest interest in pulling me over. Now part of it is that most of the police around here probably already know of me and so they go "Hey look, there's that guy on the electric bike... cool" and think nothing of it. They know that Missouri is relaxed about this issue.

My point is that if the local laws are freaky that's the exception to the rule. If you live in such an area then you need to focus your energies to get them to change and conform.

Non-conforming local laws (that are still being enforced) are rare... they do exist... but most areas will give in to the Federal Law over time. The Federal Law might translate into a "fight for freedom" for some downtrodden people.

Let the people be free... apply the Federal Law everywhere...

 

[TylerDurden]

Local laws can be as nutty as they choose to be if they so desire.

Not where Federal Law supercedes...

It does with regards to consumer protection, i.e. SALES. If you sell your electric motorcycle #001 as a bicycle (in Missouri or anywhere in the US), you are in violation of the law.

If the sucker who buys your 'bike' crashes, you are in deep poop and no local law will get you off the hook.

 

[safe]

If the local person who buys your 'bike' crashes, you are in deep poop and no local law will get you off the hook.

I'm fully aware of that. That's why I'm not willing to sell to anyone, I want to be sure that the person buying it is fully aware of the risks of a high speed experimental bike. Even if some kid shows up with money to buy it I'm not going to sell. Ideally the person buying would have motorcycle riding experience and just wants a bike that does not need gas. I would make up a bill of sale that included a disclaimer about the inherent safety issues about an experimental machine.

If the right buyer cannot be found then I just keep it.

But I'd like to find someone who I could then ride with later on... my next door neighbor expressed an interest in buying it yesterday... but I'm not sure if he's the right buyer for it. (I'm going to let him ride it someday soon and we will see from there)

 

[TylerDurden]

Ideally the person buying would have motorcycle riding experience and just wants a bike that does not need gas.

So... this topic would be more appropriate, moved to the e-scooters and MOTORCYCLES section.

Admins?