You mean "batterys" not individual cells right? Or are you going to take the batteries apart and replace the individual cells inside the battery? That would be really cheap. You might burn yourself though playing with acid. I've checked my batteries after a full discharge using a spotlight and voltmeter hooked up to see which one dives the most. There still withing 1 minute of each other.
Safe's Electric Bike Project #001
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I view the entire set as the "battery" and the individual 12 volt units as the "cells" just like you would with a NiMh or LiFePO4 pack. Sealed Lead Acid batteries cannot be opened to my knowledge without serious consequences. (I've never tried it)D-Man said:
After thinking about this I'm guessing my "SLA Battery Warming" that I did last year might have advanced the death of this battery/cell. At first I was using a more controlled warming technique that was not very effective and later switched to using a heater blowing at full blast. It was the cell that likely took the most heat that seems to have failed. However, I really just don't know. I really should have made more effort to track the individual voltages rather than the group voltage over time because for all I know this one cell might have been going bad for a thousand miles. The batteries have 3,200+ miles on them, so they are old.
I've gone ahead and ordered the two 12V 18Ah cells and when in series I'll have 48 volts. These 38Ah cells are probably about equal to the 18Ah cells now so it should work as a balanced unit. I'll still be able to run in parallel at 36 volts too. (probably will most of the time)
We will see... I just want one more summer with it...(the two replacement cells cost $73.90 delivered)
If I find that the remaining 38Ah cells are worthless then I'll cough up another $147.80 and get the rest... :|
Compared to the other chemistries this is still pretty cheap.
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Intense Charging/Desuphating
I've read that older SLA batteries tend to get sulphation buildup. If you can apply a strong overvoltage for a short period it can rattle some of the sulphation off the cells and restore some of their life.
What I've realized is that my 10 amp charger when applied to all my cells at once delivers about 3 amps per cell. If I instead connect just one at a time I can get the full 10 amps blasting into a single cell which I'm hoping (if done sparingly) will shake up an old cell.
This is actually how I discovered the problem...
I was thinking "desulphation" and charging each cell one at a time rather than as a group and noticed that one cell was way off from where it was supposed to be.
How long was this going on?
I just don't know... I wish I thought about this before... :?
Moral of the Story:
Do not assume that SLA's cells remain balanced...
I've read that older SLA batteries tend to get sulphation buildup. If you can apply a strong overvoltage for a short period it can rattle some of the sulphation off the cells and restore some of their life.
What I've realized is that my 10 amp charger when applied to all my cells at once delivers about 3 amps per cell. If I instead connect just one at a time I can get the full 10 amps blasting into a single cell which I'm hoping (if done sparingly) will shake up an old cell.
This is actually how I discovered the problem...
I was thinking "desulphation" and charging each cell one at a time rather than as a group and noticed that one cell was way off from where it was supposed to be.
How long was this going on?I just don't know... I wish I thought about this before... :?
Moral of the Story:Do not assume that SLA's cells remain balanced...
safe
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Eyeballs Needed
I need people to take a look over my final wiring design to make sure I'm not doing anything obviously wrong. In the parallel mode positive connects to positive and negative connects to negative. In the series mode the negative connects to the positive. Now if for some reason I swapped the series connection so that I got it backwards by mistake the results SHOULD be benign because it would essentially take both of the 18Ah replacement cells out of the system... you would end up with not a 48 volt or a 36 volt, but a 24 volt system... and the controller would see that as "battery empty" (below the low voltage cutoff) and not allow anything to happen.
I just want to be sure I'm not making a really dumb mistake that's going to cause a short circuit. It looks like it would be impossible to cause anything dangerous to happen.
Those will be Deans Connectors in red.
An added bonus on this is that I'll be able to use my existing charger Deans Connectors to be able to individually check and charge my cells if I choose to want to do that. I'm planning to pay a little more attention now that the old cells (the other two 38Ah's) are now on the "suspicious" list for problems.
I need people to take a look over my final wiring design to make sure I'm not doing anything obviously wrong. In the parallel mode positive connects to positive and negative connects to negative. In the series mode the negative connects to the positive. Now if for some reason I swapped the series connection so that I got it backwards by mistake the results SHOULD be benign because it would essentially take both of the 18Ah replacement cells out of the system... you would end up with not a 48 volt or a 36 volt, but a 24 volt system... and the controller would see that as "battery empty" (below the low voltage cutoff) and not allow anything to happen.
I just want to be sure I'm not making a really dumb mistake that's going to cause a short circuit. It looks like it would be impossible to cause anything dangerous to happen.
Those will be Deans Connectors in red.
An added bonus on this is that I'll be able to use my existing charger Deans Connectors to be able to individually check and charge my cells if I choose to want to do that. I'm planning to pay a little more attention now that the old cells (the other two 38Ah's) are now on the "suspicious" list for problems.
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This might be easier to read... the wires in the upper right hand corner were switched, but the circuit is the same...
Does everyone see the 24 volt, 36 volt and 48 volt configuration options that these little "jumper cables" can produce? That's the real question here... whether I've gotten all the bases covered... the two wires coming in from the sides used to go to the old 38 Ah cell, so this is the drop in replacement strategy. (it allows me to keep my old wiring harness the same and just add the new stuff)
Does everyone see the 24 volt, 36 volt and 48 volt configuration options that these little "jumper cables" can produce? That's the real question here... whether I've gotten all the bases covered... the two wires coming in from the sides used to go to the old 38 Ah cell, so this is the drop in replacement strategy. (it allows me to keep my old wiring harness the same and just add the new stuff)
safe
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Success !
After installing the new 18Ah batteries and doing the wiring I went out for a test ride. At 36 volts it felt about as "peppy" as it did when I got the batteries new. At 48 volts it's all of a sudden in a whole new power range. The gearing shifts upwards so first gear is pretty tall now, but my sixth gear is in a whole new range and I did 43 mph on the FLAT without any problem. (40 mph is my top speed based on 36 volt gearing at it's powerband peak)
Wow...
I'm going to go and test the top end speed on the downhill and I'll post those numbers later. It's recharging now and it looks like all the cells are roughly balanced in that the older 38 Ah cells are about equal to brand new 18 Ah cells. So they are all about equal. That "runt" cell was dragging the whole bike down. It's only 56 degrees today so the power will be even better in the summer. (and the overheating problems too)
My new shift points look like:
After installing the new 18Ah batteries and doing the wiring I went out for a test ride. At 36 volts it felt about as "peppy" as it did when I got the batteries new. At 48 volts it's all of a sudden in a whole new power range. The gearing shifts upwards so first gear is pretty tall now, but my sixth gear is in a whole new range and I did 43 mph on the FLAT without any problem. (40 mph is my top speed based on 36 volt gearing at it's powerband peak)
Wow...I'm going to go and test the top end speed on the downhill and I'll post those numbers later. It's recharging now and it looks like all the cells are roughly balanced in that the older 38 Ah cells are about equal to brand new 18 Ah cells. So they are all about equal. That "runt" cell was dragging the whole bike down. It's only 56 degrees today so the power will be even better in the summer. (and the overheating problems too)
My new shift points look like:
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51 mph
Not bad... I was hoping for 52 mph which is my best with 36 volts and a different gearing setup. With the 48 volt peak power at 56 mph I should be able to go faster than this, but maybe on a warmer day with thinner air I'll do it. Not bad for 56 degrees. After about 5-6 miles at 48 volts the cell voltage drops to 12.3 volts and 12.3 volts for the 38 Ah and the two 18 Ah go down to 12.1 volts. So that means that my remaining 38 Ah are still holding more capacity than the new 18 Ah. That "runt" cell must have suffered as being the one that always went down to the lowest voltage every time.
Hmmmm....
In the picture you can see how that loop sort of sticks up so now if I need an emergency cut off for some reason all I need to do is yank on that loop and it cuts the circuit. Nice... an added safety feature.
The 48 volt alternative connector loop is on the seat.
Oh, by the way, the very first time I plugged in the 48 volt connector I did it backwards and nothing happened. So it must be creating a 24 volt circuit and the controller simply asserts it's low voltage cutoff. Again, nice, I can make a mistake and nothing blows up.
The negative thing about the 48 volts aside from the fact that I might be dealing with overheating problems in the motor and the controller is that the default LVC is set at 30 volts for it's 36 volt system design. That means that I have no ability to know by cutoff that the batteries are low. So that introduces a seductive source of failure... lot's of power and a quick drain rate with no warnings.
Not bad... I was hoping for 52 mph which is my best with 36 volts and a different gearing setup. With the 48 volt peak power at 56 mph I should be able to go faster than this, but maybe on a warmer day with thinner air I'll do it. Not bad for 56 degrees. After about 5-6 miles at 48 volts the cell voltage drops to 12.3 volts and 12.3 volts for the 38 Ah and the two 18 Ah go down to 12.1 volts. So that means that my remaining 38 Ah are still holding more capacity than the new 18 Ah. That "runt" cell must have suffered as being the one that always went down to the lowest voltage every time.
Hmmmm....
In the picture you can see how that loop sort of sticks up so now if I need an emergency cut off for some reason all I need to do is yank on that loop and it cuts the circuit. Nice... an added safety feature.
The 48 volt alternative connector loop is on the seat.
Oh, by the way, the very first time I plugged in the 48 volt connector I did it backwards and nothing happened. So it must be creating a 24 volt circuit and the controller simply asserts it's low voltage cutoff. Again, nice, I can make a mistake and nothing blows up.
The negative thing about the 48 volts aside from the fact that I might be dealing with overheating problems in the motor and the controller is that the default LVC is set at 30 volts for it's 36 volt system design. That means that I have no ability to know by cutoff that the batteries are low. So that introduces a seductive source of failure... lot's of power and a quick drain rate with no warnings.
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Range or Power?
Choosing either the 36 volt or the 48 configuration is basically choosing range or power. The 48 volt mode is significantly faster everywhere and ironically since the 48 volt has more top end power it can pull the first gear up the hills better than the 36 volt. I saw this in the spreadsheet comparision and it's surprising, but basically the 36 volt with it's lower peak power can't get all the way up to it's better part of the powerband and so it actually is both slower and less efficient at the same time.
The numbers on the spreadsheet for a 10% grade go like this:
Voltage - 36
Efficiency - 40%
Power(in) - 1440 watts
Heat Losses - 823 watts
Power(out) - 570 watts
Speed - 6.8 mph
Voltage - 48
Efficiency - 52%
Power(in) - 1920 watts
Heat Losses - 823 watts
Power(out) - 1004 watts
Speed - 12.2 mph
...the only problem is that 1920 watts for a 48 volt configuration is drawing a significantly worse Peukert's Effect, so you go fast and run at the same temperature, but your battery drains really fast.
It sure is fun at 48 volts... I'm going another 5-10 mph faster everywhere... it's almost like a new bike. (but with a very short range)
In the 36 volt configuration the range is much better, about as good as before it appears, but I'll have to test that.
I'm also learning that in 48 volt mode the rpms are waaaaay up there for the top end, so that's taking some getting used to.
It's nice to be able to toggle back and forth. Sometimes you just want to get someplace and other times you want that high speed thrill and being able to choose is a good thing.
Choosing either the 36 volt or the 48 configuration is basically choosing range or power. The 48 volt mode is significantly faster everywhere and ironically since the 48 volt has more top end power it can pull the first gear up the hills better than the 36 volt. I saw this in the spreadsheet comparision and it's surprising, but basically the 36 volt with it's lower peak power can't get all the way up to it's better part of the powerband and so it actually is both slower and less efficient at the same time.
The numbers on the spreadsheet for a 10% grade go like this:
Voltage - 36
Efficiency - 40%
Power(in) - 1440 watts
Heat Losses - 823 watts
Power(out) - 570 watts
Speed - 6.8 mph
Voltage - 48
Efficiency - 52%
Power(in) - 1920 watts
Heat Losses - 823 watts
Power(out) - 1004 watts
Speed - 12.2 mph
...the only problem is that 1920 watts for a 48 volt configuration is drawing a significantly worse Peukert's Effect, so you go fast and run at the same temperature, but your battery drains really fast.
It sure is fun at 48 volts... I'm going another 5-10 mph faster everywhere... it's almost like a new bike. (but with a very short range)In the 36 volt configuration the range is much better, about as good as before it appears, but I'll have to test that.
I'm also learning that in 48 volt mode the rpms are waaaaay up there for the top end, so that's taking some getting used to.
It's nice to be able to toggle back and forth. Sometimes you just want to get someplace and other times you want that high speed thrill and being able to choose is a good thing.
RLT
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Range or Power?
Don't we all really want both?
Don't we all really want both?
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Range or Power or Cash... which one would you be willing to part with?RLT said:
More money buys more battery which buys more range and power... but leaves you broke afterwards. :?
Those Thundersky cells would fit right into place on my bike and would deliver 40 Ah's at a little over 36 volts. It would cost about a grand, but it would give me a range of something like 40 miles even at full throttle all the time. I'm just hoping for prices to go down someday.
CGameProgrammer
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Isn't that bike fully rigid? And you go 56 mph on it? Or was that only on a track?
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My top speed is 52 mph on a downhill... but it's solid as a rock. This is something I've been trying to tell everyone is that just because you load a big motor onto a bike it doesn't mean that it's a good idea to go fast on it. I've added about 8" to the wheelbase and built a very strong frame and fork so that I can lean the bike in a corner at 35 mph and not get any flex. I can literally break the tires loose a little and there's no flex to cause a highside. It feels solid even at speeds above 50 mph. Seriously... it feels good. (it actually seems to get smoother at higher speeds due to the gyroscopic effect of the wheels)CGameProgrammer said:
The frame and fork weigh about 20 lbs... 10 lbs more than a typical bike frame and fork....
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52 mph
I managed 52 mph today. My trip was 9.24 miles and it took 21.38 minutes. The first 5 miles was using 36 volts and the second was at 48 volts. That makes for about a 26 mph average. This was my first test to be sure the range is still good. It seems that the 36 volts mode does work as well as before and the 48 volt mode definitely drains the smaller cells faster than the big one's so I can confidently say that the big cells still have better than 50% capacity left in them. So the summer begins... the big is like new again and I've got 48 volts for more speed.
Over 3,300 miles at a battery cost of about $200 overall. (counting the "runt" cell that got replaced)
And two other projects that haven't been finished yet.
I managed 52 mph today. My trip was 9.24 miles and it took 21.38 minutes. The first 5 miles was using 36 volts and the second was at 48 volts. That makes for about a 26 mph average. This was my first test to be sure the range is still good. It seems that the 36 volts mode does work as well as before and the 48 volt mode definitely drains the smaller cells faster than the big one's so I can confidently say that the big cells still have better than 50% capacity left in them. So the summer begins... the big is like new again and I've got 48 volts for more speed.
Over 3,300 miles at a battery cost of about $200 overall. (counting the "runt" cell that got replaced)
And two other projects that haven't been finished yet.
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Exploiting Imbalanced Cells
This is kind of interesting... 8)
Normally SLA has a problem with "sag". At the beginning of the ride the voltage is high and as you go the voltage sags and you get less and less top end performance towards the end.
My bizarre 38ah, 38ah, 18ah, 18ah configuration with the first two rather aged cells creates a nice little system. If you start off in 36 volt mode the 38ah cells are a little older and so they tend to sag before the 18ah pair which are new. So today I went the first 8 miles in 36 volt mode. At that point the sag became noticeable and so I switched to 48 volt mode. Now the 38ah cells have LESS work to do (they get to rest) while the 18ah cells have MORE work to do. I end up with a powerful bike again (after 8 miles) and so I make it home after one of my longer rides at about 12 miles. (average speed about 25 mph)
So then I check all the cells...
They were all at 12.1 volts. (which means they were not empty)
With this weird setup you can actually defeat the SLA sag effect and not risk hurting any of the cells because all the rates of usage operate in such a way that they all end up the same.
Nifty... (nifty?) :lol:
This is kind of interesting... 8)
Normally SLA has a problem with "sag". At the beginning of the ride the voltage is high and as you go the voltage sags and you get less and less top end performance towards the end.
My bizarre 38ah, 38ah, 18ah, 18ah configuration with the first two rather aged cells creates a nice little system. If you start off in 36 volt mode the 38ah cells are a little older and so they tend to sag before the 18ah pair which are new. So today I went the first 8 miles in 36 volt mode. At that point the sag became noticeable and so I switched to 48 volt mode. Now the 38ah cells have LESS work to do (they get to rest) while the 18ah cells have MORE work to do. I end up with a powerful bike again (after 8 miles) and so I make it home after one of my longer rides at about 12 miles. (average speed about 25 mph)
So then I check all the cells...
They were all at 12.1 volts. (which means they were not empty)
With this weird setup you can actually defeat the SLA sag effect and not risk hurting any of the cells because all the rates of usage operate in such a way that they all end up the same.
Nifty...
(nifty?) :lol:
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Fast, Smooth, Relaxed...
A big mistake that people make on street motorcycles (that applies to my bike too) is that they tend to grab as much power as they can and then overshoot the turns. They end up going deep into the turns under braking and that means they can't get the bike over into a lean as early. As a result your exit speed tends to not be very good and that means you need to hold the throttle on longer on the exit.
The remedy is to brake earlier and get leaned over earlier and carry more speed through the corner and start to roll on the throttle as you exit the turn so that you are increasing in speed on the way out.
Today (after the scary over shoot of the downhill and near crash yesterday) I just got "back to basics" of good road racing form and started to learn how best to use the 48 volt power. If you overdo it into the turns all the time you actually end up slower and waste more energy.
Fast, Smooth, Relaxed... it's be better way to ride, much safer too because since you have a better handle on the limits (you are less frantic) you can adjust to problems better.
A big mistake that people make on street motorcycles (that applies to my bike too) is that they tend to grab as much power as they can and then overshoot the turns. They end up going deep into the turns under braking and that means they can't get the bike over into a lean as early. As a result your exit speed tends to not be very good and that means you need to hold the throttle on longer on the exit.
The remedy is to brake earlier and get leaned over earlier and carry more speed through the corner and start to roll on the throttle as you exit the turn so that you are increasing in speed on the way out.
Today (after the scary over shoot of the downhill and near crash yesterday) I just got "back to basics" of good road racing form and started to learn how best to use the 48 volt power. If you overdo it into the turns all the time you actually end up slower and waste more energy.
Fast, Smooth, Relaxed... it's be better way to ride, much safer too because since you have a better handle on the limits (you are less frantic) you can adjust to problems better.
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Spring Flowers, Green Grass, and Police
So I'm out on one of my backroads rides today, I ride in 36 volt mode for about 10 miles and the voltage is starting to sag so I switch over to 48 volt mode. Now the bike is reinvigorated and actually more powerful than I started so I get going and come upon a nice long gradual dowhill slope that I have not yet done in 48 volt mode before. First gear, second gear, third gear, fourth gear... I'm crossing 40 mph and able to go much faster when I look up to see a police car coming in the uphill direction. Argh! To the brakes I go back down to 30 mph. (my legal limit for Missouri) He didn't turn around and didn't care... so I might have simply kept on the gas (electrons), but at the bare minimum it's a sign of respect to back off when you see a policeman.
Yes sir! Whatever you say sir!
Police just like respect and I have no problem giving it to them.
Anyway... it was a beautiful ride otherwise... spring is really only now finally here...
Checked the voltage at the end and all the cells ended at 12.1 volts (very close) so that ride routine looks to be about perfect.
So I'm out on one of my backroads rides today, I ride in 36 volt mode for about 10 miles and the voltage is starting to sag so I switch over to 48 volt mode. Now the bike is reinvigorated and actually more powerful than I started so I get going and come upon a nice long gradual dowhill slope that I have not yet done in 48 volt mode before. First gear, second gear, third gear, fourth gear... I'm crossing 40 mph and able to go much faster when I look up to see a police car coming in the uphill direction. Argh! To the brakes I go back down to 30 mph. (my legal limit for Missouri) He didn't turn around and didn't care... so I might have simply kept on the gas (electrons), but at the bare minimum it's a sign of respect to back off when you see a policeman.
Yes sir! Whatever you say sir!Police just like respect and I have no problem giving it to them.
Anyway... it was a beautiful ride otherwise... spring is really only now finally here...
Checked the voltage at the end and all the cells ended at 12.1 volts (very close) so that ride routine looks to be about perfect.
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FOR SALE
$1000
Everything is working fine... 3,500 miles... it's just time to move on to something else. This would be a great bike to buy and then add Thundersky cells (1536 Wh using 12 of them) which would stretch the range to 50 miles.
No hurry... but spread the word...
And local pickup in Missouri is required.
I'd prefer people who are "hardcore" and into this stuff to buy it... (and no I'm not running low on cash... I'd just like to get other people into doing this sport)
$1000
Everything is working fine... 3,500 miles... it's just time to move on to something else. This would be a great bike to buy and then add Thundersky cells (1536 Wh using 12 of them) which would stretch the range to 50 miles.
No hurry... but spread the word...
And local pickup in Missouri is required.
I'd prefer people who are "hardcore" and into this stuff to buy it... (and no I'm not running low on cash... I'd just like to get other people into doing this sport)
Lessss
1 MW
Not in MO so Grr. No license so grr, no peddles so grr.
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The Ideal Buyer
The ideal buyer for this bike would be someone who lives somewhere in the Kansas City area. The reason I say this is that I'd like to have someone to on occasion be able to ride with and they need to have something competitive to be able to keep up with my future projects. (which will be even faster) Also someone who is an adult is preferable simply because it's a heavy bike. I don't allow any of the kids in my neighborhood to ride it even though they seem to want to. So some awareness of the dangers of speed and an adult perspective would be nice. Leathers recommended, helmet required.
Note: I know about this websites "Selling Area", but for now I'm posting it here...
The ideal buyer for this bike would be someone who lives somewhere in the Kansas City area. The reason I say this is that I'd like to have someone to on occasion be able to ride with and they need to have something competitive to be able to keep up with my future projects. (which will be even faster) Also someone who is an adult is preferable simply because it's a heavy bike. I don't allow any of the kids in my neighborhood to ride it even though they seem to want to. So some awareness of the dangers of speed and an adult perspective would be nice. Leathers recommended, helmet required.
Note: I know about this websites "Selling Area", but for now I'm posting it here...
Jay64
100 kW
So is this the bike that is in your avatar pic? Got any more pics, ie larger pics?
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Jay64 said:
Things have changed slightly over time. I could take more pictures if you want, just tell me what you want to see. There are picture's all throughout this thread to sort through too.
You probably have all kinds of fairings laying around already, so you could trick this out pretty easily. It's dimensions and feel will remind you of a road racing bike... so you will like the feel of it.
The big problem would be getting the bike from here to Florida. Driving here to get it is a big deal (and no longer cheap) and shipping it would be a big hassle because it's not going to fit into a box very easily. The batteries would probably be cheaper to just remove than to try to ship.
I'm in no hurry either, so if you have any plans for a vacation (or a race) this summer where you somehow have a trip planned to go past this way then you could pick it up then.
RB Cats
1 mW
Why do you take this bike to the Bike Rayce in Neosho, MO.to try to sell it. I took two of my EV Global bikes last year and I had several people interested in buying them. Check out solarbike.org. The web site has not been updated for this year Rayce, but I got a Email that the event is still to take place. I will not be able to attend the Rayce on Sunday June 1st, as I have to travel to Boston for business. I am thinking that I may go on Saturday afternoon and check out the inspection process, but I would have to leave early Sunday to travel back to Saint Louis to catch my 5PM flight.
RB cats
RB cats
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RB Cats said:
Jay64 is a "special case" because he's a professional motorcycle road racer looking for some kind of ride in the electric bike area. Selling to him is something that benefits him and me at the same time because I'll know that it's being sold to someone that could appreciate the bike and it tends to make my work look better. (Jay hears "who made it?" and then he talks about my work... the word get's passed on etc...) Selling locally is also to my benefit because I might then gain a riding partner which adds a lot to the fun. Selling into cyberspace over the internet (like ebay) is good for maximum money return (which you would think I would be all excited about with me being so cheap all the time) but it doesn't really give much otherwise.So I want to explore the "high end" options first before I "go slutty" and sell for the highest price. You know what I mean? :wink:
Neosho, MO is something like 200 miles from Kansas City... it might as well be in Canada because I would never drive that far for just a "fun ride" with a friend. Though I suppose it's possible that someone from Kansas City might attend.
EMF
100 kW
After trashing nearly every thread in these forums with your ramblings, the one time you can make a legitimate post somewhere ...you decide against it. At least you're consistent.safe said:
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