Samples here-Flanged GOOD Quality FW's w/dual Row Bearings

[Miles]

however I prefer another freewheel which is rated at 550 LB/in. Torque and the 16T is only (138g) 4.9 ounces. these are proving to be much more bomb-proof...

That's an endorsement for the Excess.......?
http://www.excessfreewheels.com/

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

Got this email today (Wednesday, April 27, 2011):

Mitch,
I finally talked with White Industries. They are working on designing us a dual bearing freewheel. They just needed to confirm a few design issues with us. I don't have any time frame but they are working on it.
Thanks,
Jim

Received another email (July 27, 2012):

We are continuing to press White for a dual bearing solution and they claim to be working on it.

15 months and the only change is from this "they are working on it".

To this "they claim to be working on it":

however I prefer another freewheel which is rated at 550 LB/in. Torque and the 16T is only (138g) 4.9 ounces. these are proving to be much more bomb-proof...

That's an endorsement for the Excess.......?
http://www.excessfreewheels.com/

EXCESS PRO SERIES FREEWHEELS

Lighter, faster engagement, and stronger are the 3 goals that we set out to do when making a Pro level freewheel and we were able to far exceed all of our goals with the new Excess Pro Series Freewheel.

The Excess Freewheels are rated at 550 LB/in. torques, that far exceed the current FW on the market, which are rated only at 420 LB/in. We made these to meet the current needs of a high performance and reasonably priced freewheel.

Does the excess use dual bearings?

If not they might be more willing to work (actually do it, hopefully for a lot less than $10k) on this than White? Maybe someone (Miles?) should contact to excess?:

If that doesn't pan out is there an easier, cheaper way to accomplish this goal than building a custom FW? Something with its own bearing (8mm wide should be enough?) that bolts to the flanges of the White. Same BCD as a chainring so it could be used to mount chainring(s).

 

[myzter]

I have emailed Excess (BMX racing group) about the freewheels they make... even tried to open discussing via Facebook account they have..
- bmxracinggroup.com/brg/contact/
without any feedback or responses so far...

the Excess freewheel is pretty solid, BUT It does have a small amount of sideways movement...

*Update
I got some feedback however it is only regarding the sideways play .. I asked them about... and they replied that

"Yes, that is part of it to help self adjust the chain alignment."

so I took apart the freewheel and found that they use three spacers... one is tiny bit thicker(right side in photo) than the two others which are very thin...
I have successfully removed one of the thinner spacers and this will tighten up the sideways play.. It would be possible to remove both of the thinner spacers IF a guy could spot weld the cover in just the right tightened place.. e.g. before the bearings start to make a grinding noise.. back it off a bit//

I have a video posted on : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29163&p=636293

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I got some updates from Jim at sickbikeparts:

I may have a solution for you finally. It is not a White unit, they say they are still working on it but I have something else you might want to try. Let me know if you are interested.

It isn't exactly what I envisioned but it should be serviceable. It is a high quality 3 pawl double bearing freewheel. It is similar to the Dicta but good quality. It uses a caged bearing on each side so not sealed but better than loose ball and 3 pawls instead of 2 and of course nice chromoly steel. We have some out for trial with some of our customers and so far no one had killed one.

Do you want a sample? You can just pay shipping and I will send you one.

The problem is my health is so poor that testing an ice cream flavor is about all I can handle. If someone wants to test this, preferably in comparison with other units let me know and I'll try to set it up.

 

[speedmd]

If it is a near direct swap out for a flange type ASC, count me in. Can machine adapters if not. I was just about to try making a support bearing hub for the ASC and it looks doable but very tight on my build. Can pay pal you the funds. PM me.

cheers

 

[myzter]

Good news indeed!
I need one!
Not too long ago I viewed a pic from a bike expo .. with a new design freewheel part was shocked.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi.

I quoted your posts and pm's, then added the following:

Let me know if you want me to arrange a sample for either or both of the guys above, or if you still want to send me one. I could at least post pictures, with my impressions and maybe show it to a few friends.

Thanks for the response. I did have one of those guys contact me but after I really informed him what it was and that is essentially the same FW that ACS offers ( 3 pawl double bearing freewheel) he lost interest. I think it is a good freewheel for the money. Not quite as good as the White unit but much better than the Dicta. The White unit isn't that good for electrics anyway due to the single bearing. I keep harping on White to do a dual bearing unit and they keep saying they are working on it but alas it has been over 2 years now and nothing.

So no samples for now .

 

[boostjuice]

The Excess freewheel's internals look to have an identical ratchet/pawl profile to the ACS Crossfire. I supsect they are made in the same factory, and that locking strength, material type, and tolerancing is much the same. Crossfire models can often be found marginally cheaper and they're more widely available, so I don't see the point of seeking out the Excess model especially.

Crossfire internals:

 

[comradegerry]

It pains me to see that there is still not one free wheel producer that can see a niche in the market for a dual row flanged freewheel.

Tensile make a 60 click freewheel with dual row bearings, fully servicable and decent quality, available for 37.50 from Tarty Bikes.

They sell the outer ring with the teeth on their website as a spare for 11 UKP delivered.

http://www.tensile.net/tensile-freewheel-spares.html

I asked them today via email if the would be interested in doing a run of 50 outer rings, flanged, rather than with the teeth cut. It would be easy for folks to drill 5 holes them selves.

I also asked if they would be interested in a run of 100 units, flanged and drilled with the 5 hole pattern that folks have got used to on the WI model and a cost involved.

Would 100 units sell, eventually, in the sales thread of ES?

Does it appear durable enough for use at the cranks or am I barking up the wrong tree?

I will post the reply I get back from them, if I get one.

 

[Chalo]

wow, that´d be super. I want two, depending on width and number of pawls. I want as many pawls as possible.

It is the nature of pawls that they do not all engage at the same time. Often it's just one at a time carrying the entire load. And when they break into pieces and wander around, they cause problems.

My point is that redundant pawls are not better, even though they have proven to be an effective marketing feature for ACS and others.

P.S. -

This potential development from White Industries, a freewheel with two precision cartridge bearings in it, could be the first entirely adequate solution to the problem of freewheeling a chainring with motor power on it. That would make it a game changer for kits like GNG and Cyclone as well as for stinking gas engine powered bicycles.

I applaud White Industries if they come through, but I still think y'all shouldn't be so afraid of pushing pedals. You think you'll mess up your toenail polish or something?

 

[Miles]

Does it appear durable enough for use at the cranks or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Hi Gerry,

We did discuss the Tensile before, in the other freewheel thread. I'll dig out the reference.

 

[Miles]

Here you go: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=363731#p363731

 

[comradegerry]

Thank you Miles for reminding me of the "freewheel museum" thread, it was but a distant memory.

I will have to re read it again in all it's glorious detail.......

 

[boostjuice]

I just thought I'd report success in a making a super high locking torque 'Hybrid' freewheel with dual row caged bearings. This FW has six synchronously engaging pawls (the largest factory offering being three synchronously engaging pawls)

Recipe:
1 x Tensile '96 click' FW inner
1 x ACS claws FW outer

(Yes you will have to buy both freewheels whole to cannibalise the needed parts from both, But the ACS one won't cost you much)

+

= Hybrid Vigor

The two odd halves from different manufacturers mate together perfectly.

So why does this 'Hybrid' have such high locking strength? In standard trim, the 6 pawls of the Tensile FW inner mesh with the associated 32 tooth outer in 3x asnynchronously timed pairs (two at a time 'lock-in', 3*32 = 96 'clicks'). By substituting the FW outer for one with a tooth count that is evenly divisible by three, all 6 pawls engage synchronously, rather than in offset pairs. The ACS Claws outer's have 18 teeth and the pawls fit in the tooth valleys more 'snuggly' than they do even in the tensile FW outer. I suspect this mod would work just as well with an ACS Crossfire outer (30 teeth), but I haven't tried it.

Note: Whilst the ACS Claws FW's are snynonomous with poor quality, it's the inner FW component (that is discarded in this mod) that has the poorest tolerances. The outer section is more acceptably finished, and with the CNC accuracy of the Tensile inner, all 6 pawls engage at EXACTLY the same time. Try as I might, I cannot simulate a 'race' condition (less than all 6 pawls engaging in synchronisation) by turning the FW outer with even, controlled slow rotation to test for this fault.

 

[myzter]

Nice work boostjuice
I dont need the mod part for my current setup as Im only pushing 1200watts... and the Excess has worked great..
But when I upgrade my motor....for sure... what I need is a fw with no lateral play...I cant go higher than 95t sprocket because too much wobble..

 

[Miles]

Nice work boostjuice
I dont need the mod part for my current setup as Im only pushing 1200watts... and the Excess has worked great..
But when I upgrade my motor....for sure... what I need is a fw with no lateral play...I cant go higher than 95t sprocket because too much wobble..

Yes, very clever idea. Not much to do with motor power, though....

 

[boostjuice]

Miles is correct. People, the benefit from the added robustness of this Hybrid freewheel is most beneficial when used in Freewheel cranks where torque loading of a cyclist standing on a crank is by far the highest of anwhere on a bicycle/e-bike. If a flanged ACS 'Crossfire' outer fits as nicely as the 'CLAWS' outers, then this will be the strongest dual row freewheel available that is also easily adapted to chainrings.

 

[Chalo]

Miles is correct. People, the benefit from the added robustness of this Hybrid freewheel is most beneficial when used in Freewheel cranks where torque loading of a cyclist standing on a crank is by far the highest of anwhere on a bicycle/e-bike.

Hello? The pawls don't engage together; in fact it is an engineering impossibility for more than three pawls to share a load at the same time. Usually it is one or two. More pawls can offer smaller angular backlash, but they don't withstand more torque.

 

[Miles]

in fact it is an engineering impossibility for more than three pawls to share a load at the same time.

Share the load equally, you mean? For sure, it's not "impossible" that they share the load.

 

[Chalo]

in fact it is an engineering impossibility for more than three pawls to share a load at the same time.

Share the load equally? You mean? For sure, it's not "impossible" that they share the load.

The degree to which hardened steel pawls will "squish", combined with the applicable manufacturing tolerances for these things, implies that at most three pawls can transmit load at the same time. The others can be "engaged" but not carrying load, or not engaged, but only three points can be loaded even if the bearing is entirely relieved as a force path. Often one or two pawls transmit all the torque, as I said before.

 

[Miles]

Often one or two pawls transmit all the torque, as I said before.

That may well be the case. I've no idea whether there's anything to be gained, in practice, from having more than three pawls in "engagement" but I'm happy that BJ is experimenting with the idea. The fact that lax tolerances mean that even a third pawl is often a passenger doesn't mean that two is all you need.

 

[boostjuice]

Indeed the steel of ratchet teeth and pawls have no elasticity (rebound after compression). The pawls are definitely harder than the ratchet teeth though.
If as Chalo suspects, no more than 3 teeth are initially transmitting load, but the loading of these is sufficient enough to 'indent' their respectively engaged ratchet teeth, one or more of the other pawls can then 'join' in sharing load. If the CNC indexing accuracy of the pawl location is fine enough - Which it looks to be VERY tightly toleranced on the Tensile inner- surely the depth of indenting of the more poorly indexed ratchet teeth can be limited to a point where any given tooth does not catastrophically shear-off in a given intermittent high torque application, hence increasing the lifespan of the FW outer dramatically.

In a nutshell, 6 synchronous pawls effectively slows the rate of ratchet tooth indentation to the point of failure due to more pawls available to 'catch' intermittent high torque loads that might otherwise tear off ratchet teeth completely. Yes the FW outer is case hardened and ratchet teeth will crack at the stress riser point within each tooth valley at a certain point of force/repetition, but a post-mortem of at my destroyed FW outer suggests a small amount of indentation occurs before cracking begins.

 

[briangv99]

spotted this one on the GNG LR thread, maybe one to add to BoostJuice's freewheel collection http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=42785&p=867901&hilit=+token+freewheel#p867754

 

[myzter]

so I found the next freewheel to test after the Excess freewheel trial... the Excess works - 1000's of km's thru rain, snow and sun without issue... however it will become damaged with hard impacts from landing2-3' jumps.. perhaps it can withstand the impact, but when the motor is spinning at the same time as impact the bearing races or the inards become damaged from the different chain lines etc.. so Im trying the TOKEN dual bearing "Shark Bite" freewheel.. six pawls.. 120 points of Engagement, or every 1-2 degress I was quoted by a rep.. just ordered the cromo version (140g) = $95 comes with a removal tool.. but they also offer a lighter aluminum version I would like to test at a later time...

 

[panurge]

Yes, it is one to try, no doubt.......
I'm very interested in how it works for you, and if there is enough room to broach or grind the splines on them....
If the widest diameter across the removal pockets is 33,8mm or less, than we should have enough material for the splines.
Cheers