Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 battery

[babyhughie]

HK Lipo is great if u have a safe place to charge, want to pay attention when charging and don't have a lot of cash.. My 18650's I can leave the house, sleep n do whatever I want while charging. The possibility of Lipo burning down my house even when they aren't on the charger and KFF?? I'll stick with 18650's, with Cell_man now making a 75v triangle pack with the samsung 20R high discharge cells their is no reason to buy lipo unless you don't have the cash for the cellman battery. A guy on here just had his first test drive and hit 43mph with the 75v triangle pack. Just my 2 cents

 

[999zip999]

HK Lipo is great if u have a safe place to charge, want to pay attention when charging and don't have a lot of cash.. My 18650's I can leave the house, sleep n do whatever I want while charging. The possibility of Lipo burning down my house even when they aren't on the charger and KFF?? I'll stick with 18650's, with Cell_man now making a 75v triangle pack with the samsung 20R high discharge cells their is no reason to buy lipo unless you don't have the cash for the cellman battery. A guy on here just had his first test drive and hit 43mph with the 75v triangle pack. Just my 2 cents

That's over 1,000 usd plus shippping , charger, and tri. bag. S 1,350 ? I would love one.

 

[Hillhater]

Why would you want to use these cells in a pack?
300 cycles, might as well go with lipo from hobby king.

Energy density, safety, quality, flexible dimensions..

How many HC lipo packs you know that run without problems for at least one year?

Partly true , but a biased viewpoint.
Energy density is good, but power density is not so hot.
infact if you are using those 18650's near their max output (1C+) then you may well lose most of that energy density advantage due to cell IR causing heating and wasting energy.
Also 18650 packs have a high % of "Void" space between the cells, so finished pack energy density is not dissimilar.
Safety..? sure there have been many reports of fires etc with lipo, most of those "incidents" have been attributed to user error and build quality issues. Also, remember lipo is used for high power set ups ( RC heli's etc) and often seriously abused in those applications.
18650 safety..?... remember the laptop fires ??....and we have had other pack fires reported here too. Again mostly user errors.
Quality....directly related to price..i would suggest... and can be offset by some diligent inspection and testing before assembly.
Flexible dimensions ??..remembering that HK lipo are pre-assembled packs,..so that is not really an apples to apples comparison,
and hugely offset by the skills, tools, and time involved to configure a custom shaped pack !

Needless to say, the advantages of HK lipo deserve bearing in mind at this point..
Power density .. very hard to beat with commercially available cells and important for high load set ups.
Ease of assembly. basicly, "plug and play" with few skills needed. Balance leads also provided. Ideal for the DIY'r
Ease of repair .. due to the above simple assembly .
Cost and availability. !

I am a big fan of 18650 cells, but its no clear cut winner by any means.
Really, the situation determines the choice. If you want high capacity (Ahr) with minimum weight, then probably 18650 would be the way to go.
But , if you need a lot of peak power, without excess capacity or weight, then LiPo would be favored.

 

[auraslip]

HK lipo is for toy bikes for people that see this as a hobby and can afford to throw a thousand dollars at a battery pack every other season. I'm right now in the process of tearing apart my packs and replacing bad cells after a year of service and a year in storage. You know how long it takes to test each cell in a 22s10ah lipo pack? meanwhile my almost 5 year old ping pack keeps trucking (minus the shit charger and bms)

I would love to build an ebike pack out of these cells so I could finally have a moderately powered ebike that I knew I could rely on for years to come. Only problem is the termination. So much work to put them into a solid pack..

 

[Matt Gruber]

got 2 dewalt packs on sale 2/98
PLUG & PLAY
an hour later i was riding my dirt bike.
took an hour to make up the plugs.
They have jacks for individual cell testing or balancing.
and a 3 year warranty!
so, i avoid spot welding, soldering, pack building, and since they use HIGH POWER 18650 i can ride with just 2 packs. faster bikes would use more packs, but you get the idea. EASY AS PIE.

 

[Hillhater]

I dont think 2 Dewalt packs would do much...or last long... on a 48+ volt, 50 amp bike !

HK lipo is for toy bikes for people that see this as a hobby and can afford to throw a thousand dollars at a battery pack every other season. I'm right now in the process of tearing apart my packs and replacing bad cells after a year of service and a year in storage. You know how long it takes to test each cell in a 22s10ah lipo pack? meanwhile my almost 5 year old ping pack keeps trucking (minus the shit charger and bms)..

How do you kill an entire lipo pack every other year ?
How do you make a 22S, 10Ahr HK lipo pack worth $1k ???
You could assemble that from 12 of the $25, 5 Ahr , hardcase packs for $300 in cells ?
My 10S , 15Ahe HK lipo has been running for 5 years and only ever lost one cell (my fault )..which was quickly replaced in a few minutes ( swap out a 5S pack) for max $50 ..( but in reality only $10 as i still have 4 good cells available :wink: )
And yes, i understand the Ping packs are mostly good...if you dont need more than 20 amps !
Testing HK lipo is a easy and quick process.
Cell balance can be monitored daily ( cellogs) and condition can be assessed well enough from a cell level IR check every few months ( 10 min per "brick" )
I dont know how you would tackle testing an equivalent capacity..(10S, 6P ?) 18650 pack regularly ??

As i said,..most of the faults with HK lipo can be traced back to human error !

 

[Matt Gruber]

i plan to put my 6 makita packs PLUS the 2 dewalt packs on my ebike. that is about 432 wh for $213 including shipping. no it is not the cheapest, but is safer imo (each cell has a thermal fuse)
would easily handle 50 amps, and weighs 10#. (but i'd go for long rides rather than fast high amp rides)

 

[999zip999]

I have had 4 small fires out of the top up of konion cells out of used makita packs. I order 30 used makita tool packs, he had only 18. But just found 12 more out back. They where shipped and the Canadian postal strick happen. After a month on the shipping dock. They arrived. I think 8 where between 8-10 volts. Almost all had there tamper plug removed. So had been open. Some would shoot a small flame out the top. Yes these where handle very carefully. When I move the cells from the back of garage to the front for recycleing. They caught fire in the garage. Very bad. These cells were under 2.5 volts.
Yes konion cells out of makita tool packs do caught FIRE.

 

[Matt Gruber]

try to stay on topic

 

[Schlafmutze]

12p24s, slightly tempting with these 25Rs.

 

[Hillhater]

i plan to put my 6 makita packs PLUS the 2 dewalt packs on my ebike. that is about 432 wh for $213 including shipping. no it is not the cheapest, but i've NEVER seen a report of a fire with either dewalt or makita packs. (each cell has a thermal fuse)
would easily handle 50 amps, and weighs 10#. (but i'd go for long rides rather than fast high amp rides)

Matt, where do you buy those Makita packs so cheap ?....$115 for 6 ?
..or are they used packs ?
..and I estimate that at 36 v , that set up would need to be running at over 4C to supply 50 amps....!
That will warm them up !..and waste a lot of power as heat.

For comparison...a 450 Whr pack of HKLipo ( hard case) would cost $150 + freight! , weigh 7 #, and supply that 50A at under half their rated output . .....Whilst keeping cool.

 

[999zip999]

Sorry Matt but it's true. Fire report yes, by the fire department. Police report for a fire ? Why not the F.B.I or C.I.A or mister wizard. So used makita packs with konion cells can caught fire Matt. Batteries can make fire. Clue.
I have had over 550 konion cells.

 

[Matt Gruber]

i plan to put my 6 makita packs PLUS the 2 dewalt packs on my ebike. that is about 432 wh for $213 including shipping. no it is not the cheapest, but i've NEVER seen a report of a fire with either dewalt or makita packs. (each cell has a thermal fuse)
would easily handle 50 amps, and weighs 10#. (but i'd go for long rides rather than fast high amp rides)

Matt, where do you buy those Makita packs so cheap ?....$115 for 6 ?
..or are they used packs ?
..and I estimate that at 36 v , that set up would need to be running at over 4C to supply 50 amps....!
That will warm them up !..and waste a lot of power as heat.
l.

Here is the math. i derate by 50% for C rating. so these makita 10 amp cells, i max at 5. 6P=30a. Then i connect the 2 dewalts in parallel. they are rated 11C or 44a, but i have tested only at 20a, so i use 20. 20+30=50a. 36 volt pack.
the makita are used $10each+shipping from drbass, and have to be repaired, which is a lot of work. and they are 2-3 years old, so while they are cheap and great to learn on, the new dewalt packs are great for PLUG and PLAY if u catch the sale 2/98. at the regular price 99each forget it, imo. I think the dewalts are the only tool packs that have jacks for individual cell pairs! kudos to dewalt engineers! google dewalt DCB204
Also, this topic is about 18650 high power cells. When you go to a Corvette club and tell them that a Mustang is cheaper and does the same thing, you are not going to get a good reception. And if your mustang is a cheap chinese copy then you get laughed at.

 

[Hillhater]

So you are quoting costs of limited availability used cells with new, internationally stocked product..?
The question was asked as to why you would choose 18650 over HKLIPO LiPo , some exaggerated reasons were given, so it was necessary to answer them so as not to misslead anyone.
By the way, you may find your " Corvette" cells were made in Japan ! :wink:

 

[Matt Gruber]

JAPAN is my choice. my sanyo from 2000 lasted 10 years, so i am impressed. made in japan.
china is known for cheap copies.
it takes lots of study to really compare different chemistry. i dont claim to be an expert.
china also makes fine quality products. are HK fine quality? like sanyo? panasonic? sony?
i'd rather have used makita packs than new HK. But i was only testing a replacement for sla.
money is not the worry. it is fires. i tried to make a V cell catch fire. i shorted it. the fuse blew. so i sawed off the + terminal and drove a screw into it. it smoked, but no fire.
Now short your HK pack and report back.

 

[t3sla]

Sanyo and Panasonic cell manufacturing are the same company, they merged divisions a few years ago.

 

[Matt Gruber]

Sanyo and Panasonic cell manufacturing are the same company, they merged divisions a few years ago.

yes they merged in 2009. what is your point?
My point is there are BRAND NAMES with a reputation to defend.

 

[parabellum]

Now short your HK pack and report back.

I believe they changed over time as well. I took turnigy 4s hard case apart on the new year to show off in front of my friends, how dangerous my life is, riding lipo moped. I shorted them, punctured repeatedly holes with screwdriver, shorted inside with same screwdriver, I just got them ballooned, hot and little smoke at most. I was able to get fire on last cell by overcharging it to ~ 6V and then puncturing resulting balloon.
Cells where ~3.9V initially.

And finally, LiPo is actually Corvet in 18650 Corolas world. Do not compare them.

 

[Mammalian04]

I took turnigy 4s hard case apart on the new year to show off in front of my friends, how dangerous my life is, riding lipo moped.

Lol Parabellum... that's the story of my life too. Ha ha. I would make a terrible thug...

 

[silviasol]

The other thing to consider is how much amp draw there will be. Under 2c lipo will be safer, draining 10c+ is another story. That is where cell quality would come into play for the most part imo.

 

[Matt Gruber]

a good bouncer would kick out trouble makers that can't comprehend the topic. it is 18650 high power.

 

[parabellum]

it is 18650 high power.

:lol:

 

[nukezero]

Today I fully tested my 18650-25R in real world conditions on a Mac motor 8T.

The configurations are as follows:

52 cells, Samsung 18650-25R 48v - 13s4P 10-Ah total capacity

I was riding the bike like I stole it, basically hammering the throttle up to 32mph at times. I got a total of 14.3 miles out of the entire pack before BMS shut me down. Battery measured 54.1V at start and 40V at end.

The pack was consistent always pulling me up to 30-31mph, before the last two pulls, it got me up to 25mph only... then I realized why 10 seconds later. The entire pack shuts down and I'm stranded about 1000 feet from home. These cells discharge real flat and smooth and then fall straight off the cliff. So it is best to invest in a cycle analyst or watt meter. The LED voltage indicators I have on my throttle are too little too late.

 

[ecruz]

Here is my battery porn!!! VTC5 22sx12p

 

[madin88]

ecruz, that pic makes me envious.
may i ask you where you did purchase and do they also offer spot welding?