Seeking information pre build.

[BrianMH13]

After a year of owning an Aipas 2,600+ miles on it. I know I really like eBikes. I want to build a bike from scratch now. I have welding experience and plan to fabricate my own frame and build it all up from parts and materials including the battery pack. I have formerly been thinking in terms of how big of a pack can I build (for long range) but recently realized that a better approach is build a moderately sized pack and set it up for fast charging. If I can charge the pack most of the way in about an hour that would be kinda ideal really. It would keep the bike lightweight, less expensive to build the pack and an hour or so isn't a big inconvenience. Could be getting lunch, shopping etc. while charging.

The bike I want to build is probably more a lightweight motorcycle than a true Ebike (with pedals)

The idea is a supermoto type bike running 3" street tread tires mounted on double wall 24"x4" wheels. Like a Stealth Bomber almost but using an in frame motor instead of a hub motor and different wheels/tires. 20-30mi true range and 50mph would be excellent. That's all I've got for criteria at the moment.

I figure this thread can be for discussion of everything pre build including recommendations/discussion for electronics like motors, controllers, and battery cell types.

 

[E-HP]

You need to decide what voltage you'll be running. For 50mph, you'll need 72V minimum, but higher voltage may run more efficiently, but the cost of the controller goes up quickly for voltages above 72v. 50mph requires around 5kW.

Using the Grin Simulator, and choosing a random high power motor and adjusting to meet your requirements to get an idea of the power and torque requirements, the bike's performance should look something like this for 50mph capable, and 30 mile range. You didn't specify whether you needed 30 miles AT 50mph, but that's what is currently modeled. You'd have twice the range with the same system, if you controlled you throttle hand and didn't need to ride 50mph for the full half hour.

Motor Simulator - Web Tools - Resources

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

For a battery that big, there are a few option (EV batteries, etc.) but for the common cylindrical cells, the 18650 and 21700 cells are most common. The 21700 has higher capacity, so less spot welding, and fewer chances of screwing up. The two cells models below have a really high charge rate for lithium ion cells. The Molicel batteries have a good reputation for higher output and high capacity applications. You could go with other name brands (Samsung, Panasonic, LG, etc.), but not many have the ability to charge fast.

The P45B have a capacity of 4.5Ah, and the cells charge at 4.5A standard rate and 13.5A for fast charging, so a pack constructed with these cells can charge in 1 hour from dead to full at the standard charge rate, and 20 minutes for fast charging. I'm using these in one of my packs, but only charge at 8A to baby them, but for my daily riding it only take me an hour to charge up (8Ah) for a ride, and an 8A charger is still pretty compact if I want to put it in my bag. It's a 4P pack, so maximum charge rate would be 54A (that would be a huge charger lol), so at 8A, I only see about 1.5C degree temperature rise while charging.

The P50B cells have a capacity of 5.0Ah, and the cells charge at 5.0A standard rate, and 15A fast charge, so like the P45B cells, full charge in an hour at standard, and 20 minutes at fast.

Here's a thread of one ES member building a high quality, high capacity, pack, using P42B cells (same charge rate, smaller capacity). I've been waiting over 2 years to see it completed, but hopefully sometime soon.

Eastwood’s first battery build

-I’ve edited the title as I will just use this thread for my first battery build* So my question is, will I get more range from a higher voltage pack with discharging less amps, or lower voltage with more discharge amps that has more amp hour capacity? Battery build will be with 340 cells as...

endless-sphere.com

 

[Nix Liou]

In addition to fast charging options from Molicel, most of the new tabless cells are capable of 2C discharge, which should be sufficient charging in an hour. Options like the EVE 50 PL (not in full production yet, only preproduction), the Reliance RS50, the Tenpower 50XG (Supposedly will be in full production some time in November, from what I've heard), or even the 4Ah cell offerings (Tenpower 40XG, EVE 40PL, etc). Molicel options are more easily available, currently, and due to their anode construction they can handle fast charging better than other options.

There's a couple things to consider here, though.

Going off of the calculation from E-HP, 30 miles of range at 50mph would likely take ~3kwh of battery capacity. Charging that in an hour will need a 240V circuit or some other way to get >3000W of power to charge with.

Some layout options would be 20s8p for 5Ah cells, 9p for 4.5Ah, or 10p for 4Ah cells. That means you will need 160-200 cells (21700 format).

Personally I would currently recommend the Molicel P45B, on the basis of cost, unless you want to get adventurous with the RS50 or wait for the production 50XG or 50PL

 

[offGridDownUnder]

For your speed criteria and the idea of an "in frame motor" you are making a motorcycle or moped. I'm pointing this out as when you do come in contact with the legal system in any way - and this is not entirely under your control as their are other road users - you will lose your entire investment unless you follow through to get certified on all your components and get insurance.

By staying in their lane, ebikes and their riders are actually very privileged under the current definitions - kind of a shame to abuse that goodwill. Just something to think about while deciding on what to build.

 

[neptronix]

Sounds like a cool idea but you'll be the first to get busted after some kid dies on an ebike and your local lawmakers decide to crack down on ebikes. The guy with what looks like motorcycle tires is the first to go

Do you really need something that is both very fast and the opposite of stealth?

Here is what 60mph but almost stealth looks like:



I'd move more in that direction considering the legal environment. Of the people that report getting busted on this forum, all of them had fatbike looking things..

 

[BrianMH13]

Thanks. It's going to take me a while to digest the technical recommendations here as I hardly understand electricity. It's basically magic as far as I'm concerned at this point.

In regards to the legalities. I don't plan on needing to be stealth. I just got a 900cc motorcycle and am going to be riding that with insurance, registration and taking motorcycle rider course(s).

If I build the light emoto discussed here I'll be almost certainly going the insured and registration as a motorcycle route.

Being that I have a motorcycle now I would just be building such an emoto for fun, the experience and to get to town quick from where I live (semi rural) if I do and it goes well enough maybe build a couple for sale. I don't know.

I plan on having a Solar system set up this next year and have a couple good size panels a nice charge controller and a good amount of PB batteries. Would be cool to have a nice ebike to take advantage of basically free "fuel". I like the sound of combustion engines but I like the quietness of electric too sometimes.

Maybe I should build something in between first. An actual e bicycle that's not super crazy but is a good bit better performance than my Aipas. If I do that I would probably want to build a Cargo bike with a hub motor or maybe dual hub motors and would be fine with 30mph speed.

 

[Nix Liou]

Thanks. It's going to take me a while to digest the technical recommendations here as I hardly understand electricity. It's basically magic as far as I'm concerned at this point.

If you do decide you are interested in tabless cells, I've been thinking about organizing a group buy for the EVE 50PL when it hits full production (Dec-Jan).

As for the legality, good luck on registering and insuring it. I've heard that it can be pretty difficult in some areas.

 

[99t4]

Maybe I should build something in between first. An actual e bicycle that's not super crazy but is a good bit better performance than my Aipas.

I vote for this option. Use is as a springboard for developing your electrical skills. ===>

I hardly understand electricity. It's basically magic as far as I'm concerned at this point.

 

[neptronix]

If I build the light emoto discussed here I'll be almost certainly going the insured and registration as a motorcycle route.

I have never seen anyone on this forum successfully register a vehicle without a VIN as a motorcycle. It's a legal requirement in every US state that a motorcycle has a VIN. And you can't just make one up!

If this is your intent then i'd focus on converting an existing motorcycle.

 

[E-HP]

If I build the light emoto discussed here I'll be almost certainly going the insured and registration as a motorcycle route.

Since it’s a motorcycle and not an ebike, you may want the admins to move this thread to the Emotorcycles subforum, especially if you’re intent is to register it.

 

[BrianMH13]

Well what the hell if the State won't let me try to do "the right thing" they can F-off then. I presumed it was possible. If there is no avenue to make a machine that's skillfully built and safe I consider that an overt violation of my rights.

Sorry but not sorry if that triggers some of you but such an America isn't my America.

 

[BrianMH13]

I have never seen anyone on this forum successfully register a vehicle without a VIN as a motorcycle. It's a legal requirement in every US state that a motorcycle has a VIN. And you can't just make one up!

If this is your intent then i'd focus on converting an existing motorcycle.

There isn't a motorcycle that would lend itself to what I would want it to be.

I can't just make up a vin number but another "person" can? Because that's what a vin number is. A motorcycle company which is legally considered a person makes up vin numbers...

 

[BrianMH13]

There are custom motorcycle builders like the famous Orange County Choppers that build custom frames basically from scratch. There was obviously a way they were doing that. Maybe I would have to form an LLC or have a registered business license first.

 

[ZeroEm]

There isn't a motorcycle that would lend itself to what I would want it to be.

I can't just make up a vin number but another "person" can? Because that's what a vin number is. A motorcycle company which is legally considered a person makes up vin numbers...

Now your getting it. It is upsetting. Most here try to push the limits and some get busted. The speed limit here is 28mph for Ebike. Any faster requires license.

 

[harrisonpatm]

There are custom motorcycle builders like the famous Orange County Choppers that build custom frames basically from scratch. There was obviously a way they were doing that. Maybe I would have to form an LLC or have a registered business license first.

It is entirely possible, and you don't need a business. Every state has their variation on the process, but there are almost always legal and established avenues for getting a homemade/custom build registered as a VIN. You'll have to look up the specifics for your state, but the general idea is:
1. Document all parts of your build, lots of pictures
2. Save every receipt for every nut, bolt, washer and stock material; you need to be able to prove that you own this thing you built
3. Contact your county office for an inspection
-In my state of Michigan, step 1 is to have a cursory inspection from a police officer or sheriff, where they look for basic requirements like headlights, turn signals, horn, brakes, etc. Only after that first step can you schedule an inspection from a county inspector, whose job it is to check for structural integrity, build quality, overall safety and suitability for road use.

4. Pass inspection from certified inspector
5. Take your certificate or proof of inspection to your DMV, Secretary of State, or other motor vehicle office
-Depending on your state laws, proof of insurance may be necessary at this point, so you'll need to find an insurance company that's okay with insuring a homemade vehicle with no VIN yet. You can see where this may be an issue.

6. They will assign a new VIN for your homemade vehicle and affix it onto said vehicle
7. Pay taxes and registration fees for said vehicle, just like if it was a car or motorcycle you want to be registered and titled
8. Enjoy
As you can see, this is why it's often preferable to convert or modify a vehicle that already has a VIN or some sort of previous legal status for road use. Easier to fly under the radar that way. And if you go the "bike" route, be aware that in the best case, you're in a current gray area depending on your speed and riding practices.

Places like Orange County Choppers are either modifying existing bikes that have a VIN, working on bikes like old Harleys where the VIN was assigned to the motor rather than the frame (I know a guy who makes a decent side business doing that, you can do whatever you want with the frame if the VIN is on the motor), or they're big enough/have enough connections in their local government to grease the wheels. Or, they're doing every step I mentioned above exactly as they should, and they do it enough that they're good at it.

Well what the hell if the State won't let me try to do "the right thing" they can F-off then. I presumed it was possible. If there is no avenue to make a machine that's skillfully built and safe I consider that an overt violation of my rights.

There's a difference between the State violating your rights vs. "the rules for doing what I want to do are too inconvenient and difficult". I also converted a motorcycle to electric. I decided that the route for doing it legally was easier by converting an existing vehicle, rather than trying to make one from scratch and legalizing it. It also perfectly reasonable to be upset and angry regarding the legalization of ebikes and the confusing classifications stemming from that. But as stated earlier:

By staying in their lane, ebikes and their riders are actually very privileged under the current definitions - kind of a shame to abuse that goodwill. Just something to think about while deciding on what to build.

It would be a shame to put a ton of work into your build and just have it get ticketed or impounded.

 

[E-HP]

Well what the hell if the State won't let me try to do "the right thing" they can F-off then. I presumed it was possible. If there is no avenue to make a machine that's skillfully built and safe I consider that an overt violation of my rights.

Sorry but not sorry if that triggers some of you but such an America isn't my America.

Safe? Riding among cars with only 5 or 6 HP on tap isn’t safe. 900cc can get you out of most situations, but not all. It’s true that there are two kinds of riders: those who have gone down, and those who will. It’s the first rule of motorcycling. If you start thinking you’re safe around cars, it won’t be long until you're a grease spot on the pavement. It’s no different with electric, except you’re in a much worse situation due to the descending torque curve. You twist the throttle at car speeds and nothing happens, less torque where you need it instead of more. People convert motorcycles so they can run high voltage and power on a proven platform. Easier to stuff a 100 pound battery into the frame. Even then, you need to build for double the speed you plan to ride at in order to have a safety margin at your riding speed.
I think it’s probably a good thing that my bike isn’t legal. I have a greater tendency to only ride it fast for short periods when nobody is around. I’ll bet you have never ridden your 900cc bike for a full day without breaking the law, just like no car driver does, so why be triggered by the law? Just build it and have fun, or go out in the street and protest, if that makes you feel more fulfilled.

 

[neptronix]

Sorry but not sorry if that triggers some of you but such an America isn't my America.

Well.. what part of Oregon do you live in? I know some parts in southern Oregon are basically anarchy zones.. but for the rest, it should go like:



..but the department of motor vehicles should work the same way in the entire country.

One fun hack that motorcycle builders use is to modify an existing frame that has a VIN on it.

"it's a modified such and such" is a valid way to legally register some freakish motorcycles.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Well what the hell if the State won't let me try to do "the right thing" they can F-off then.

Did you know that 'you' (meaning anyone) can't practice medicine without a license? And the licenses are actually kind of hard to get?

Bear with me a bit further...

The good reason for this is to prevent misery inflicted by self-important idiots preying on gullible and frightened people.
The bad reason for this is to suppress viable alternative medical approaches to preserve monopolies.

Both are true. The sincere people enforce these licenses to prevent misery, the selfish people use them to gain power. Yup.

Well, who is responsible for making this work out as it should? Hint: you say you are an American. Well, then it's on you. You're the citizen, the government's power is the power the citizens lend to it - with strict guidelines about how it may be used and mostly how it may not be misused.

Oh, "they" aren't doing it right?!? Well, it's on you to get to work fixing that. You are the citizen. You're it. If it's frocked, it's because the citizens are letting it be frocked - no one else is responsible. These aren't Alien Overlords - all there is is US. Just us.

I'm in my 60s. My own experience suggests that whining about what others do and don't do isn't as helpful as I thought it was when I was younger. But don't stop there.

Perhaps you're the guy who starts to finally straighten out the ebike laws so that they provide the potentially enormous benefits they promise - ecological and social changes that can lead to some serious improvements in the lives of all around you.

Maybe it's just a different path than you thought at first, but someone has to do it, right? I'm waiting and looking for my fellow adults in the room to step up. I'm in Australia, and I'm just getting started myself, but I ain't stopping yet.

You want to ride around on an ebike? Well, maybe it isn't just "pay money, get rocks off". Maybe there's a bit more to it.

 

[BrianMH13]

I like all the comments here. Thanks. I have had a very "contentious" "relationship" with law enforcement. Stuff I won't go into detail here chances are because much of it is disturbing and as much as I think it's important to discuss maybe this isn't the correct venue for that.

I do live in Southern Oregon. It's not full on Anarchy but as far as I live it's kinda close.

Even still I turned 40 this year and I'm not trying to be a rebel without a cause. Ultimately I gotta do what I gotta do but I'm trying to live in accordance with a legal framework if only as a formality in order to reduce my liability, reduced excuses, supposed justification the State or bad actors may use against me.

I lost my license around 15 years ago in California for a thing that wasn't a crime in most places and attended the program the court told me I needed to take. I didn't really have the need for a car for many years and just presumed that at some point all I would have to do was go to the DMV and my license would be reinstated. It turned out that the court told me to take a class that "satisfied" "it's" requirements but didn't satisfy the DMV requirements. The class I attended, the class the court instructed me to enroll in was a 4 week class. The class the DMV "needed" from me was a 6 week class.

It was the functionally the same class the difference being one had two additional meetings to appear as a more thorough/intensive program.

Another example of the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing and me having to pay the price (at best)!

OffGridDownUnder says it's up to US to deal with this sorta thing and I mostly agree. If the government fights the will of the people and individual freedom when there is a history of safe, thoughtful, good willed conduct from an individual or group that is a serious problem though. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen but I probably should put forth more effort (formally) in this matter and my other grievances otherwise all I have is me complaining to thin air or an internet forum...

 

[2old]

Well what the hell if the State won't let me try to do "the right thing" they can F-off then.

Probably you wouldn't like some of the other requirements like working front and rear turn signals, rear light(s) etc, but if your area is like most, there won't be policing of these attributes.

 

[MxusMick]

As I ride my ebike and ponder deep thoughts while listening to birds sing in a modern America wrought with "manufactured crisis", Corporate Hysteria, and one sided ideology, censorship is the game, victimization is the daily claim, and whining about problems is lame. The same who drool about accountability, the same who conveniently " shift rhetoric" to become moral stewards, must be held accountable for actions committed over the past decade. AI is a " lie" an artificial definition defiler, the haters will hate, but I think my AMERICA is GREAT. The blame game is pathetic today, America deserves Reparations from the " haters".