Sick of manipulated dealer specs!

[Spacey]

How many dealers quote 40, 50 or even one guy quoted me 70Miles out of a 26V 10Ah (9.5Ah really) battery pack on there bike!

There really needs to be a standard here of how many miles can the bike do with next to no pedaling. I always quote this figure as actual tested only peddled when I absolutely had to i.e hills and I say approx 30miles on a 43v 11.5Ah A123 pack with a 250W motor.

Sure I could say it does 4,000miles if you peddle nearly all the time and just leave the bike on using no throttle, it's just not fair to the customer. 26v 9.5Ah ...come on!

 

[dogman dan]

Me too. I was sooooo pissed off when I rode my first few rides on an ebike. I was promised 20 mile range, AT 20 mph, from a brushed motor on 36v 12 ah sla's. It was more like 6 miles. I was able to eak out 10 miles if I rode about 12 mph, and used the motor mostly only on the uphill parts.

Thus was born my rule of thumb I have spoken of so many times. At 36v 1 ah per mile. Cut in half for the lead which only puts out 6 ah for 12 ah size, it's pretty spot on. That's little pedaling, and 20-25 mph.

Sure, you can double that if you want to, and I've done it. But at 12 mph and pedaling up 30% of the watts. (150-200w from the motor, 70-100w from my legs)

 

[Spacey]

I have actually got 30 miles from a 11.5Ah A123 at 43V i.e 16S 5P using a small geared 250W motor, if I peddled harder or at all on the flats it would have been a lot more. This is at 15mph though.

A123's being used at 1C hold their voltage all the way to the end so no speed drop off really unlike the cheaper packs. Some ebikes end up at 12mph towards the end of a charge.

 

[MadRhino]

I use 46 Wh per Km. Make it the new standard. :wink:

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

These numbers mean way less than consumers likely think.
Technically you can get somewhere between 0 and infinite miles out of any capacity pack. Requiring the pedals to be moving makes things questionable.

A friend gets about 42 miles out of a 6S 50AH LiPo pack, pedaling only up hills, 500W motor, about 20-22 MPH. That's 4-5x the battery capacity, and the low end of the rated miles.

 

[Drunkskunk]

I've figured out I use 29-30 watt hours per mile at 20mph regardless of the bike, if I ride the bike like a sane human.
Dogman's Law works out to 36wh/mi which is roughly my 29wh/mi +20%, so the battery would only be discharged to 80% at the end of the ride.
Perfect.
Its a rough figure to get things started. Calling it 1 amp per mile puts it in terms most Newbies can understand.


I recommend people avoid any dealer who makes claims like some of the dealers have been making recently. If they lie that openly, they can't be trusted for anything else, Such as honoring their warranty.

 

[Ykick]

I understand a little "fluffing" which is common when selling any product but these so called "dealers" really get to me. How PO'd would any reasonable person be if they shelled out $100-s-$1000's of dollars and wind up stuck out in the middle of nowhere with a flat battery because they believed "sales engineering" hype?

For once, I'd like to see somebody selling this stuff give a worst case range spec and be willing to back it up with personal experience! Most sellers probably don't even ride eBikes, they just see the $$$ potential and figure they'll get into the game.

Perhaps a riders' association is a good way to counter some of this gross misinformation being spread in the eBike marketplace? I also believe safety training and knowledgebase is another highly lacking area that is too often swept under the rug and ignored at point of sale. It's not gonna do these businesses much good if their customers get hurt and/or killed in the 1st few miles/hours of use.

 

[MadRhino]

The dealer often only give the manufacturer specs, yet if he's not a liar, he's incompetent and should not be trusted any better.

 

[neptronix]

Some dealers say headway cells can do 10C all day. Others say they'll do 5C all day. I put them through my tests and they're doing an excellent job of being space heaters at 3C constant for 15 mins. lol.

Don't even get me started on the shit that hobbyking pulls.

There needs to be a standard EPA/euro cycle-esque test for ebike mileage. Then again i don't won't the gubmint involved in my ebikes..

The best efficiency i've ever seen on 36v is 3 miles per amp hour, which is exceptional efficiency. Anything above that is an absolute 100% lie. And when you throw some hills into the mix, that number can easily be cut into 1/3rd.

 

[Beavinator]

Yeah its pretty rediculous the claims some of these dealers make in an attempt to sell their products. When I bought my Gio scooter the guy claimed that it would do 70km on the 48V20Ah Lead acid battery. I live on a steep hill and I only get 22km out of a charge! Thats a little bit less than 70km lol.

 

[amberwolf]

If they would simply give range with NO pedalling, and specify rider weight and test course map (even just a link to google maps with "we went up this street, back down this one, (etc)"), plus actual motor/controller/system current draw peak and average, anyone could figure out pretty much what they were really getting.

Even for places that require pedalling (pedalec types), doing this test without it (defeating/faking out the sensor) or by only doing fake pedalling that obviously does not add any energy to moving the bike would still tell people what they are gettng.

True for whole bikes, kits, or just a battery.


Even as just a range estimate, the above test would be way more helpful than what most places will actually publish.


Perhaps someone could startup http://ebike-range.com and keep a TESTED listing of actual ranges with stock parts, with teh test conditions, and links to the sources of the parts and the tests. Could also have actual capacities for batteries at various loads. There is probably enough data already here on ES that could be collated and published there, for anyone with the time to do it (not me, unfortunately).

 

[Sunder]

Have you gotten 8 hours out of your laptop?

Or 9L/100km out of your car?

Pretty much everything we get these days are over-advertised and under delivered.

There are two batteries for sale on eBay for my phone. One claims OEM 1200mAh, the other advertises 1600mAh, extended, but is exactly the same size. Which one am I going to buy? Of course the bigger one - bring it home however, and it tests 1000mAh, but I'm the 1 in 1000 that will check, and they still have 99.9% positive feedback.

As long as consumers let advertisers get away with it, they will do it.

 

[Spacey]

You're talking about the difference between 1,000mah and 1,600mah....yep it takes the piss but stating 70 miles when the truth is more like 10 to 12 is far too much.

 

[dogman dan]

Just gotta keep getting the word out somehow. Good honest reviews of every motor or battery you buy is a good starting point.
One of the things I really liked about Justin, and Jason, is thier willingness to have the truth about thier products seen.

As I always say, who cares how far you can pedal an ebike with the motor off, or set to use 30 watts. except for a few on our trusted vedors list, they won't do the range test themselves unless they use a fit cyclist riding the bike on a course that is gently downhill.

 

[ecowheelz]

I totally understand where you guys are coming from... and I completely agree!

The truth is, specs are provided by the manufacturers. The problem for us (as a dealer), especially online, is we're competing against other dealers carrying similar products. If we provide "real-world" numbers, then people will assume the other products are better and purchase elsewhere. As mentioned, many dealers have never even riden an e-bike (or seen one assembled in person!), so they have no idea what a realistic range is. So I feel like we have to provide the manufacturer specs just to compete...

But we try to clarify the manufaturer specs so that people realize they're not always realistic. Most manufacturers provide ranges for "pedal-assist" only and we make this clear. We also let people know lots of other factors will affect this. Plus, I personally wrote reviews (for most of our e-bikes) that provide realistic numbers (PAS and throttle-only). The last thing we want is someone complaining about a bike not performing to their expectations! So we try to be upfront and honest on our website, without pushing people away from our products.

In our shop (or if someone calls us to speak in person), it's a completely different story. Even if the manufacturer specs say "20 miles", we let customers know 10-12 miles is about average for a 10ah battery. Obviously, if they use PAS, they can expect more (maybe 15-20). But this isn't always the case...

So it's a fine line. We can't provide completely accurate numbers since every rider is different. And we don't want to downgrade the numbers so much that we loose busines to competitors...

 

[Gordo]

I may have a very different point of view. I've been involved with some form of electronic since 1954 when I took my first correspondence coarse from DeVry and also joined a HAM club. Over the years, I've also sold and serviced many electronic devices. I don't believe I have ever inflated a feature or tried to "sell" anything to anyone. What I mean, was when I selling computers, I often told people, who I judged to be incapable of getting any use out of one, to not buy one. One old guy, I chased away twice. He came back a 3rd time and told me he was going to buy one, no matter what I thought, so I sold him one. I ended up visiting him often and helping him get some use out of it. It was painful for both of us. He ended up giving it to his grandson. Many of his friends and family bought machines from me and always remarked on how "badly" I had treated "old John." :lol:
With an e-bike, I like the 1Ah per mile basic truth. But, if you size up a 300lb+ 5'10 guy who lives on a 3 mile long 3000' hill and sell him an e-bike of any description, I hope the guy comes back and sits on your head. If you take the time to find out what the person wants to do with a bike and sell him something that will do the job, NO MATTER WHAT IT COSTS, you will have done your best for the customer and your business. I have had a good friend call me up and ask me if I told his idiot son-in-law, he was too dumb to by a certain piece of electronics? Absolutely, and I've done this many times, in as nice a way as possible, because selling a complicated product to a dumb customer, will give you both, no end of grief. It all depends on what kind of dealer you want to be? A happy one with happy customers, or a lying prick with a bunch of PO'd former customers.
Be happy Spacey, building a business on reputation is the best way to go, for everyone. Don't stoop to the weasel sell either, letting the customer chose and then telling him, it was his mistake. You will find that trick practiced here on ES.
Hope you are healing well.

 

[sn0wchyld]

ive personally never seen consumption as low as 1ah per mile (or 1.6km in my language). mind you, I dont think ive ever gone for a ride that I didnt peadal for 80+% of the time... The other day I got 30km out of 5ah, including riding at wot, climbing a 10-20% grade for the best part of 1km, and plenty of other hilly fun. I gotta get lazyer I think .

 

[nechaus]

Sounds like snowball made of bullshit ...
Dealers trying to compete against other dealers BS..


* joesbattery can go 40 km off a charge .. hmm ill say mine goes 45" if you were in business with me... I would fire your ass"


One of the things that piss me off is how c ratings are advertised.

 

[dogman dan]

If you were paying attention, my rule of thumb, 1 ah per mile for 36v at 20-25 mph, is a rule of thumb for an 80-90% dod. At 25 mph, a 20 amp lifepo4 that delivers at least 19 real world ah before cutoff will go about 22 miles. I've repeated that one so many times on multiple types of motors. Range goes up at 20 mph, to about 26-27 miles. At 18-19 mph, to thirty.

If you were paying attention, you'd also see that number includes only moderate, close to faux pedaling. Pedaling adds less than 1 mph to the speed.

I'm not trying to say that dealers should advertize their max range at max speed with no pedaling. Just say at such and such speed on flat ground, with pedaling. It's unbelievable how much the numbers change when riding downhill, at .5% grade. So it's really easy to fudge range by simply riding down a river valley. True flat ground nearly doesn't exist except for following a beach.

My rule of thumb is not intended to be the advertized spec of any bike. It's just intended to give a guy a fighting chance of buying the right size battery. This bike says 40 mile range, my ride is 25 miles, but dogmans rule says a 10 ah battery( as supplied on the bike) is not enough. Hmmmmmm. Knowing the advertized range may be under ideal conditions, mabye a 20 amp battery better for my needs? Yup.

Personally, I've seen much less than 1 ah per mile range at 36v, at speeds of only 15 mph plenty of times. Try riding uphill 1000 vertical feet into a 30 mph headwind for 15 miles some day. If I don't ride slower some of the ride, I won't make it on the 36v 20 ah ping at all. All it takes is a front passing to the east in winter, and my rule of thumb leaves me barely enough to make it home on that day.

 

[Dave Sloan]

Reminds me of when I used to buy GM cars because they advertised such great mileage. When my GM burnt up due to a faulty heater cord sensor I bought my first Ford. I was not looking for the mile maker at the time but it came with a display showing number of miles left and miles per gallon. After getting used to the "NUMBERS" I realized the alternatives. This SUV got great mileage at five miles per hour less then the rated speed. Also I was able to get four miles per gallon better mileage when pulling a trailer then anything that I had previously driven. Bottom line is with the numbers available the manufacturer should give you the numbers like they do for torque and horsepower in a graph so that the consumer has a choice depending on the way he/she drives. Hills are a constant depending on slope but wind resistance (for vehicles) depends on design and should also be stated in the specifications also.

 

[Gordo]

* joesbattery can go 40 km off a charge .. hmm ill say mine goes 45".... if you were in business with me... I would fire your ass.

+1

 

[REdiculous]

Forget ah/mi because it's stupid and it sucks....

wh/mi is totally universal and can be turned into an unofficial MPGe rating very easily. If it moves you can at least guess at its wh/mi....

"How many ah/mi does a worm get?" is unanswerable nonsense, but you could figure out how many wh/mi a worm uses (or give it a guess) and then compare that to a train. :wink:

 

[ty cohen]

If the standard should be 1ah per mile for a 36v, then what would be the standard for a 48v. Does voltage play a part in mileage, all other things being equal (ie speed)?

 

[sn0wchyld]

If the standard should be 1ah per mile for a 36v, then what would be the standard for a 48v. Does voltage play a part in mileage, all other things being equal (ie speed)?

yep, voltage is pretty much just as important as ah. two bikes that differ only on voltage (ie same motor/controller/rider/terrain etc edc) will have different ranges. double your voltage for the same Ah, and you'll double the range at the same speed (ignoring some fairly small extra losses in the controller/motor). its not quite as clear cut as that but it gives the basic idea. that's why w/h a mile is a better measure than ah a mile.


edit
heres a sample i prepared earlier...

you can see that A has half the voltage but twice the Ah of B (ie same wh), and when they're running at the same speed, their ranges are nearly the same.

 

[dogman dan]

Dogmans rule of thumb for 48v is about .75 ah per mile.

Stating AH per mile without stating the voltage is every bit as stupid as stating range without stating speed.

And nearly as stupid as stating wh/mi, to a noob who barely understands AH. And BTW, nearly all battery sales pages don't say what the wh capcity is. What size is your HK pack? It's stated in milliamphours. So your noob is going to have to calculate to get wh, when he's clueless what a wh is.

At some point, you have to start talking in wh. Obviously this is the universal measure, and it SHOULD be the way a battery is specified in the for sale page. Wh/mi is the only way to accurately measure the efficeincy of a ride, and works to compare any bike to any other bike, regardless of voltages.

The stupid rule of thumb is just used to get people with no experience to have some kind of clue if the bike can do thier commute. Not how far is the max the bike could potentially go. But how far the bike could reliably go in average conditions, AND have some reserve capacity for the messed up day you get to ride home into a 40 mph wind.

That's why it's a rule of thumb. Ive never called it an accurate calculation of range. If anybody wanted that, I'd have to explain wh, wh/mi, and the whole thing. Or I can just type, "you have a 13 mile ride, so a 36v 10 ah battery will be undersize if you want to ride 25 mph. Why? then I quote the rule of thumb.