SIKK Fat Bike 49cc/MXUS 3000W Build

[diggler]

This is my latest endeavor.
A Sikk fat tire bike, 29" steel cruiser frame, 7 speed with disk brakes.
Right now it's just a gas bike but soon it will be electric also.
Gas engine is 49cc hue shang four stroke coupled with a Skyhawk stage three centrifugal clutch gear box.
The power is then transferred through a jack shaft from sick bike parts to the front sprocket that has a free wheel. Then through the bike chain to the rear 7 speed. As far as I know this is the only gas fat bike with a jack shaft kit. (I had to fab the BB) Go's ~30mph
Soon to come are some custom fenders from Big O Manufacturing fenders. If anybody is looking for full coverage fenders for a fat bike I recommend him. The only other place is kcfenders which are beautiful wood fenders but there like $500.
Next to go on the bike is a longer muffler.
Then I have to figure out panniers. I'll prob make these custom. Any body got good links for custom saddle bags/panniers?
And on it's way from teslanv is a MXUS 3000W V1 4 turn and a 18fet Infineon. He programed it for me to have 120 phase amps
I will prob use up the garbage grade b lipo I got from hk 18s.
Then I'm goin 24s 10-15Ah lifepo4 headways no bms. I be bms. I'm looking forward to not having to replace my batteries for 2+ years.
Pictures will come soon! Stay tuned...

 

[neptronix]

Yea, that MXUS will outperform the gas motor any day of the weak, given the right combination of voltage and amps. Might wanna look to offload the gas motor son. It's just gonna be dead weight..

 

[cjh]

Got a link to kcfenders?

I know of these ones http://stores.bigomfg.com/fender-kits/

 

[diggler]

Sorry they are MK fenders. Here is the link.
http://mkfenders.blogspot.com/

 

[diggler]

Yea, that MXUS will outperform the gas motor any day of the weak, given the right combination of voltage and amps. Might wanna look to offload the gas motor son. It's just gonna be dead weight..

O yah it will!
The only reason why I'm put the gas engine on there is for unlimited range.
In two winters from now I plan on goin from MN to TX to Cali. Then buy a car and drive back.
I don't want to get stranded and I don't like peddling. :lol:
But the gas kit surprisingly doesn't way that much. This howl bike is way lighter then my 48v 40ah 1000w commuter. (it broke several kickstands)
I'll have to take it all off and weigh it sometime.
The heaviest part of the kit was the motor mount plate, but the sick bike parts jack shaft kit came with that integrated and it is way lighter.

 

[diggler]

just ordered this.
http://www.affordablegokarts.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=c638db64079167759bae7cbfbc5a34fd&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=A&Product_Code=2502&Category_Code=MTRBK49
I thought frigg it, I don't want the exhaust goin anywhere near the batteries. Also eventually I'm getting every high performance part I can get for this little engine anyway.

Fenders just arrived! To be honest they don't look as cool as I thought but still way happy to be douche free for now on.

 

[diggler]

here are some picks of the bike.
It's all dirty already

 

[diggler]

Got the fenders put on today.
Still need one more brace in the back but they will work till I get it. Brace will have to be longer though. I'll see if I can get him to actually make one longer.
As far as ordering the custom fender package from Big O. Don't do it its a scam. He didn't even give me all the right hardware.
Basically It was two rear fenders and three identical braces. The only thing that would have made it custom is if he would have at least drilled the holes to the right size on the braces and the hardware. The L bracket was wrong too, I made a slot in it instead of the hole so I could adjust to where it needed to be. So just order parts from him and customize your self. Other than that. I really like the durable abs plastic and the braces work good too. When everything is bolted down, the fenders are very solid!

 

[DanGT86]

I linked over here from the mxux sale thread because you asked about ammo cans as battery boxes. I did it for about a year with the $8 plano plastic ammo cans and headway cells. They work ok. Pretty water proof and easy to get into for servicing stuff. With the handles removed there were good access holes for wiring to run my cell-logs since I was not using a bms. They survived a few good falls without any serious damage. I made aluminum ribs to support the cell holders and bolted them through to the outside. Each can held 8 cells. The total weight for the 16 cells and 2 boxes was about 15lbs The only part I didn't like about this setup was the headways.

I don't want to tell you how to build your bike but I would not recommend using headways. They are about 2x the size and weight of my 18650 cell pack and without a BMS they are commonly coming very far out of balance. I bought 17 for a 16s pack and ended up needing the extra one because one has strange voltage spikes. The 18650 cells have doubled in capacity since I bought the headways so they seem to be an even more dated design now. Some of them had completely rusted boltholes on the neg terminal too. They are easy to configure and were a good learning experience but there are way better options now.

Am I reading it correctly that you are using the gas motor and the MXUS at the same time? Can't say I have seen that done here before. If so I look forward to seeing how that turns out. I have a feeling the gas motor will only get in the way by weighing you down but that's no reason not to give it a try.

Here are some pics of the headway ammo cans.

 

[diggler]

Thanks for the info.
That's the second time I've heard that headways get out of balance quickly.
Did you balance charge, or just bulk charge and rely on your cell logs to balance?
I'm wondering how they got rusted. Was there ever condensation in the box? Maybe dielectric or grease or paint can prevent this?
Are those 15ah or 10ah cells? Do you think you could fit two more rows in there without your aluminum brackets?
I want to run 24s lifepo4. So 12 in each box. From your pics it looks like they'll fit.

As far as batteries go I'm not final on anything, but I really would like to run lifepo4.
All lifepo4 cells are ~2x the weight of lipo, but should last over 2x the cycle life.
24 10ah headways are 20lbs just cells and 24 15ah headways are ~30lbs just cells.
I guess I'm okay with that.

You mentioned 18650's. That's a pretty broad description. What chemistry? I assume li-ion because you said half the weight. The newer li-ion one's that are higher then 3ah are typically 1c right? The ones that are 3c are less than 2ah right? I'm going to be 72V or 78V and 65A max so that's around 5000W. If I went with a 1c cell it'd have to be a 60ah battery!

I don't know. Looks like I need to do more reading in the battery section. Maybe I'll just go lipo again. Those 16Ah 6s packs definitely caught my attention.

 

[DanGT86]

I balanced them all before I assembled the pack and used an RC charger to balance every once in a while. After a couple weeks they would be really badly out of balance. I was turning the cell-logs off by disconnecting the ground wire with a switch but the cell logs still drain unevenly when shut off. Lots of people have modified them for more consistant power sharing. The cell logs do not balance like the similar battery medics. There are some high powered BMS (100A capable)available now too at reasonable prices so its easier to justify using one. I guess what I am getting at is that it may not have been entirely the fault of the headway cells. The one freaky bad one with the jumping voltage was strange.

The rust was how they arrived when I bought them new. Probably bad quality control or they were manufactrued at differnt times and had different shelf time to rust some.

I have not heard many good reviews on headways either.

The ones pictured are 10ah. (38120 from memory)

I will measure the boxes to see if another row would fit. I bet 10 cells per box is max.

I was talking about li-ion 18650 cells. I think the samsung 25R cells sound like a good high discharge safe cell in a small package. I guess when you said you wanted LiFe cells I was thinking you just meant non lipo.

A 21s6p of samsung 20R cells comes out to be 75v nom 11-12ah is only 6.3kg at a compact (75x120x403mm) Those are rated almost 10c I believe. Probably wouldnt run them that hard but a pack like that could still meet your power needs.

Those 16ah lipo packs are tempting but with the random quality of HK lipo its a lot of money to have tied up in one pack if a cell is junk. Those hardcase turnigy 4s5ah packs for $25 are the ones I have to resist impulse buying.

 

[diggler]

Frigg it I just got these.
Didn't want to worry about it and these are really light for the capacity!
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__66487__Multistar_High_Capacity_6S_16000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack_AR_Warehouse_.html
Now I'll be ready to rock as soon as I get my motor n controller and everything ells.

O anybody know the closest motor to this v1 MXUS 3000w on the ebike simulator?

 

[diggler]

:lol: I read your reply after I already purchased!
Yep it was an impulse buy.
I actually have new faith in the headways after I read your reply.
I would never leave any type of cell log or balancer plugged in. And I would always balance charge, and note cells at end of cycle.
I have a 300w 20A balance charger that would charge my b grade lipo's 12s 40Ah in a little more then two hours.
(well, for the first three months until they started getting really bad)
And if that is still too slow I can always brake the batteries down and use more chargers.
But that's good news about the bms's. I've never used one. How many amps can you charge with them?
O and where did you buy those headway's? I was going to get mines at headway headquarters. There in the us, should be good quality and I think there is a warranty. Don't quote me on that.
10c from a 18650! wow that's impressive.
How did you do your build. There is a battery build on here where a guy uses copper strips compressed on the 18650's with this specific foam enclosed in a plexiglass box but pvc is better to use. I'll have to find that thread!
I remember reading it a while ago and if I ever actually make a battery out of these 1000 laptop cells I got from a recycle center, that's how Im'a do it. Cause no matter how good you test old cells you never know when one is going to crap out on ya, and with that set up you could pretty much change the cell in a minute.

 

[spinningmagnets]

That's the second time I've heard that headways get out of balance quickly

Teklektik charged his Headway pack every time with a suitcase that had one tiny charger for each cell.

https://www.electricbike.com/teklektiks-dual-motor-yuba-mundo/

 

[diggler]

:lol: That thing is hilarious. But genius!
I was actually going to do the same thing by use one of those 4x6 chargers that can charge purely though the balance plugs.
That's another thread I have to read. Can you leave the battery connected in series and charge at the same time through the balance plugs? I don't see why not each cell has it's own charger basically. There's no parallel and series going on at once. One could just bulk charge then top off with the 4x6. Since I plan on going 24s lifepo4 this would work perfect.

Actually the real reason why this would be so awesome is because eventually I have an idea in the ol noodle. I want to having two batteries on the bike and a switch I can do on the fly. When one gets half DOD switch to the other then use a separate 12v battery to charge the one that's been depleted. The 12v battery all along will be charging using solar panels, magnetos and little wind turbines. Then when eventually I wont be able to charge any more and both batteries are ~%70 DOD, I'll fire up the gas engine and putt around till I can get somewhere to recharge/fill up.

The best part of it is when I'm putting with the gas, I'll still have one battery charging and the other ON and ready for any momentary burst of acceleration and regen breaking. Also cant you set the motor to drag regen but not actually brake. (just naturally letting the electrons flow back)

That's why the 4x6 charger is perfect. I would just need to plug in the balance wires back and forth or rig up some sort of relay system so I could just flip a switch and boom done. 8)

I know crazy right? Talking 300 + miles between stops. We'll see.... :|

 

[DanGT86]

my headways were purchased from headway HQ as well.
The BMS I mentioned that was about $70 shipped can be charge at continuous 20A.
They are not that hard to use if you understand how to wire a balance connector to a pack its basically the same theory. Just a wire to every cell and the big wires at the ends of the string. BMS pretty much works like a balance charger but its automatic and in the pack so you just plug in a bulk charger and it does the rest. The other benefits are that it will cut discharge power if a cell goes under voltage while riding and they also have short circuit protection so you don't melt down if you short something on accident.
http://www.bestechpower.com/74v20spcmbmspcbforli-ionli-polymerbatterypack/PCM-D131.html

The 18650 pack I was giving size of was a quote for one I was going to have built. . I have not made one from those cells yet. Doctorbass sells sony konion cells from makita drill packs. His sale threads have good links to pack building methods when working with this format cell. I have yet to see a reliable method that doesn't involve soldering. The spring and foam connections are still in development by a few brave people.

The multiple charger methods like the one pictured and charging through the balance leads work if the chargers are isolated. If you plug multiple chargers into the pack and they are all connected to the same power source it can create a short if they are not isolated. Picture the chargers as just a wire in that case. You have effectively created a series and parallel connection at the same time. That is a short unless isolated.

As far as the solar panel magneto wind turbine on board charging goes. You need to do a bit more reading on that. Basically it works like this. If you bring enough gas to go 20 miles and have enough battery to go 20 miles then at best you are going 40 miles or less. Hybrid cars can use the electric motor to cover the ranges and rpm where the gas motor is least efficient. They can also use regen as a brake to get energy that the old brakes used to throw away. This combination yields the best possible MPG for the gas motor. If you removed the electric motor from a hybrid and drove only highway miles you would get the same basic MPG. This requires tons of programming to decide how and when to use electric power. Your simple gas motor would not have that complex computer controlled power distribution.

Any regen wind turbine or dynamo has to convert motion into electricity and it gets that motion by slowing you down. If its not slowing you down than its not capturing energy for you. In short, your best bet is to carry as much battery as you possibly can. If you have 20lbs of motor and 10lbs of generator attached to it just trade it out for 30lbs more battery and you will probably get max range.

 

[diggler]

Yes this is not the first time I've been told it was a dumb idea. Thanks for your input. But I'm still going to try it. I have two years to develop and test, so we'll see how it go's...

At least if it fails we will have a reference to prove it. For all those people that look at your electric bike and say, "you should make a way for it to regenerate power when you peddle".

On another note. I just got my motor and 18fet controller today.

O boy is this thing heavy
The gas engine might have a hard time just getting the wheel spinning with this beast in the hub.

 

[diggler]

I was thinking originally I was going to use this motor.
http://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/gearless-20-24-26-700c-28-inch/newest-48v-1500w-rear-spoke-hub-motor-electric-bike-motor-998.html
It sais 90.5% efficient. RPM 731, must have thinner laminations. I just wonder is this a brand new 9c now 35mm magnet width? I also wonder about the wind? I know some people think there is no difference between winds. (John) But I consider this build one of many scenarios where you cant just go to a smaller wheel. So WITH THIS BIGG ASH 29" OD WHEEL I THINK A HIGHER TURN COUNT IS APPROPRIATE. There I said it. I just emailed these questions about the motor but if anybody here knows please tell me.
I do have a 72V (100V max) 15fet 4410's regenerative controller just collecting dust. It would be a good match with this 1500w motor I think.
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/131098947426-0-0/s-l140.jpg


Supposedly with this controller once you hold throttle for 8 seconds it will automatically cruise.
Can anyone tell me if this is a programmable controller?

 

[DanGT86]

I also wonder about the wind? I know some people think there is no difference between winds. (John) But I consider this build one of many scenarios where you cant just go to a smaller wheel. So WITH THIS BIGG ASH 29" OD WHEEL I THINK A HIGHER TURN COUNT IS APPROPRIATE. There I said it. I just emailed these questions about the motor but if anybody here knows please tell me.

You are correct in attempting to get an appropriate wind for your wheel size. The large wheel will work better with a high wind low rpm/volt motor. If your mxus hub is a 4turn than you are probably looking at around 50mph at 72v for that fatbike tire.

The argument about different winding count motors is pretty common around here. The way it works is that the low turn count (fast motors) require more amps per volt. The controller technology and sizes that we use have trouble supplying huge amounts of amps at low voltage so the high turn motors feel like they have more torque when accelerating. If you could supply the (fast wind) motor with enough amps then they would accelerate the same and make the same power. volts x amps=watts. So the motor winds are all capable of performing exactly the same but the amps required is still a reason to choose a wind appropriate for your wheel size and speed requirements.

 

[diggler]

Yes well said it's all relative to each different scenario and efficiency/performance desires.
Mine are 400-500w cruising a little above 20mph (I like 22.5), at least 45mph top speed (I got no suspension so this should be plenty fast), and of course the 26x4" fatties.

That's why I got the 18fet Infineon with this motor. I knew I was going to need lots of amps to move this 4t motor in this wheel.
The controller is 65A battery and right now it's set to 120 phase amps. I told teslenv to set the phase amps as high as he thought the 13awg motor phase wires could handle. I think I can go much higher phase amps with this controller, but after reading more I see that john and zombies generally run under 2:1 ratio of phase to battery. So if I ever get the phase wires replaced and I want to push more phase amps, it looks like I'll have to upgrade to a 24fet or a max-E or a slabvon, (spelling?) for optimum performance.


Teslanv is going to be selling V2 in moto rims with either 4t 5t or 6t. I was thinking of getting a 6 turn and swap motors. 6 turn V2 in the fat bike and V1 4 turn in the 17 or 19" moto speed bike. (it's too bad I didn't hold out for the V2 4 turn, it has more copper, thinner laminations, and an aluminum stator, but weighs a bit more). If I do get this 6 turn I'll stick with this controller but probably go 84 or 96 volts, and the amps this controller can put out would be plenty for the 6 turn motor. (I think?)

I was also thinking of going with two 1500w 9c's that was in my previous post. Fat tires just kind of scream AWD! I did a quick search on Alibabba and these popped up.http://www.aliexpress.com/item/KF01-2015-New-Style-Black-48V-1500W-Brushless-Gearless-Hub-Motor-for-Front-Wheel-Ebike/32259869254.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/KRT01-2015-New-Style-Black-48V-1500W-Brushless-Gearless-Thread-in-Hub-Motor-for-Rear-Wheel/32260400145.html
I only looked on Ali because I noticed the shipping from leafbikes was pretty high. But are these the same motor? The one on Ali doesn't give an efficiency %, and it sais 600 RPM. The one on leafbikes sais 90% efficient, and 731 RPM. They both say they have 35mm wide magnets. So wht's the deal do you think the leaf bike one has thinner laminations?

Well I can deliberate back and forth all day but in the end the V1 4turn is still a good powerful motor, and I'm sure I will be tickled with the performance. As long as the gas motor can still move the big hub reasonably well.
Yesterday I went to the bank on my fatty and the derailleur was frozen stuck in first gear (again). So I took that as I should go off road. :lol: I cut though a field with 3 foot tall grass and 8" of snow. The gas engine had no problem barreling through, and if I can't do that with the MXUS in the rear hub with just gas power, I'll probably switch to the 1500w hubbies.

 

[diggler]

Here's a nifty chart for the mxus 3000.

teslanv wrote:
21x3-Turn Wind (12 Kv): 240A --> (11.43A per strand)
16X4-Turn Wind (9 Kv): 180A --> (11.25A per strand)
12x5-Turn Wind (7.2 Kv): 144A --> (12.00A per strand)
10X6-Turn Wind (6 KV): 120A --> (12.00A per strand)
9X7-Turn Wind (5.1 Kv): 103A --> (11.43A per strand)
8X8-Turn Wind (4.5 Kv): 90A --> (11.25A per strand)
7X9-Turn Wind (4 Kv): 80A --> (11.43A per strand)
6X10-Turn Wind (3.6 Kv): 72A --> (12.00A per strand)
5X12-Turn Wind (3 Kv): 60A --> (12.00A per strand)

Looks like these are all for V2. I wonder what mine can handle because its 15x4. Probably ~170A-160A. IDK it doesn't matter, I probably wont be going over 120A anyways because of the wires and the ratio to battery amps. I could beast it up, do the axle/cooling/phase wire mods and go with a 90A controller though. Then push 180A at 72v ~13kw, or 180A at 84V ~15kw on a small 17" moto wheel. Nice to know what this thing can do. Maybe dial the phase amps back a bit to be closer to 1.8/1, like 162A.

This chart is also useful to know where the 6 turn V2 will be sitting. Looks like my current controller will work perfectly for the 6 turn. I can even go to 96V if I want more speed. Probably only do 110 phase amps though to have ~1.7/1 ratio. That's still ~10.5kv, 110A at 96V. I wonder how fast it would go on the fat bike. I'll have to go and look at the math from the mxus 3000 thread.

 

[diggler]

Today started out good for the bike build. I woke up to see Doc Bass's TA's had arrived and the high performance muffler showed up.
I got a mirror, mini tach/hour meter and big brackets for gas tank a couple days ago, so it was time to put some work in on the bike.

I got it all done and just made my own brace for the rear fender. (will paint later)




I was pretty exited about the new pipe and stuff so I decided to go for a ride.
I found some cool trails that went though woods then a hill at about a 40% incline about 150 feet long.
About the fifth time I went up the hill I herd a little bang and the bike stopped moving!
The engine was still goin but when I gassed it it just seemed like the output shaft was stuck, and no movement on the output shaft of the gearbox. It was dark and I was about a half mile from home so I had to peddle home. First time I had to peddle since I got a flat on my ebike last summer.
When I got home I saw this!


Guess I was being too hard on it.
We'll see if I can fix it, but someone on motorbikes.org was supprized I had one of these gearboxes. He said they were hard to find these days. IDK it's the one that came with the motor. Most likely I'll get a belt drive next time around.

 

[diggler]

I didn't do anything with the TA's yet because I'm waiting till I get the wheel built to see where my gears are lining up. I might just put one TA on the left (like my last two builds) IDK we'll see. I haven't got the rim yet, and I still need to order the spokes.
I should do that right now. My wheel build is identical to wesnewells so some 12g 166mm spokes with washers.

 

[diggler]

So I got some answers tonight.
I don't think they know what I'm talking about when I ask thickness of laminations.



Today at 1:36 AM

Yes,we have 1500w front.The price is the same to rear.

Yes,we have 26" * 4"rim 12g spokes.

* Yes,we can make different windings.

Magnat: 46pcs 35mm height.


----- Original Message -----

From: shaun

To: sales@leafbike.com

Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 3:17 PM

Subject: 1500w rear DD hub motor

Do you also make a front one?

I plan on using for a fat tire bike 26"x4".

Can you mount on 26"x4" rim 12g spokes?

Do you have different windings available?

What is the thickness of the magnet laminations?

thanks

shaun

 

[diggler]

more on emailing them about those motors on this link.
I was hoping I'd get more feed back but the seller was actually really good about answering questions.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65793