SoCal Grange Race Roll Call!!!! Congrats PaulD!!!

[SoSauty]

Hmmm, at $100+ a lap, I've had better days. Actually, could someday be a neat memory.

Sad about #74 Chris with his blazingly fast 49cc pedaless mo-ped. He turned 1m19sec laps to Paul's 1m21sec laps. #74Chris, #100Luke, and #81AGK were to have their own unlimited race after the 11hp Ultimate. AGK mistakenly thought he was to race in the ultimate; ultimate unlimited, we can see the confusion here. In the Ultimate AGK lost power, Luke's ran intermittantly, and Christophe was left with no one to race. He quietly came, set a startling pace for a 49cc and may have left a bit dissappointed. I guess we now know the ceiling performance for Mornis/2strokes (and in some sense e-bikes too).

Thanks Paul for honest data, approached 6K did 'ya? That's approaching 8 electric hp if you maintained close to 90% efficiency. MBR did comment that your bike screamed with acceleration, even above 40mph. 2 seconds off a refined race fairing bike with decades to evolve. The #74 is all business, has a pedal that pushes against his variator to raise his rpm.s coming out of turns.

Congrats, and I know you (Paul) to be a humble pie sort of guy. But everyone wants to knock off #1, next time you may have #74(unscored) to tangle with, Farfle/Aidan might find a 5400 to replace their 5300, then there's Etard with his newly Thud prepped Turnigy 80-100 and Thudster himself with the new Turnigy 120 monster You've set the benchmark, but I doubt you can rest on your laurels come spring 2012

Don't be so hard on Astro, the 3210 has a 45cc equivalency and the 3220 = 70cc or the same size as the Turnigy80-85. In practice, due to low gearing the CA read 120 amps with the motor heating to 165f with 15f to spare. With the afternoon wind I noted 137amps up the long straight away. Got caught up in racing and hoped my lowesh gearing would keep the motor from smokin'. Should've current limited or disciplined my throttle use.

 

[GCinDC]

PaulD is the champion of everything. He rides so smoothand fast and perfect.

Pretty low CG on his bike, huh, with that lower batt pack? Anyone else ride it? Must help a LOT on those turns, no? Congrats!

Looks like it was a lot of fun! Thanks everyone for the entertainment. Can't wait to join someday...

Any plans to visit DC soon THUD? :lol:

 

[liveforphysics]

PaulD is the champion of everything. He rides so smoothand fast and perfect.

Pretty low CG on his bike, huh, with that lower batt pack? Anyone else ride it? Must help a LOT on those turns, no? Congrats!

Looks like it was a lot of fun! Thanks everyone for the entertainment. Can't wait to join someday...

Any plans to visit DC soon THUD? :lol:

That whole bike was only like 60lbs total.

Not just low CG (which often hurts a motorcycles handling performance), but extremely low weight overall (which always helps performance).

 

[Hillhater]

That whole bike was only like 60lbs total.
Not just low CG (which often hurts a motorcycles handling performance), but extremely low weight overall (which always helps performance).

..and PaulD must be one of the lightest riders there, so all things combined with his track skills adds up to a solid result.

PS:... i notice PaulD's bike seems to have a "stock" frame also, so i do wonder if all that time & effort you guys put into fabricating "race special" frames, is really necessary ?
Less time frame building = more time sorting drive train and testing etc !

 

[sk8norcal]

He quietly came, set a startling pace for a 49cc and may have left a bit dissappointed. I guess we now know the ceiling performance for Mornis/2strokes (and in some sense e-bikes too).

that looks so cool
its got only one variatior with a pivoting engine, instead of two on a regular scooter

this is his channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tomahawktuning
there are some moped racing on there,
maybe time to race against the moped racers for more competition..

[youtube]myBPEjvQHRY[/youtube]

 

[acuteaero]

PaulD's frame may have somewhat conventional looking geometry- but it was definitely purpose built, from scratch- here are some closeup shots in lovely late afternoon light:

A beautiful bike for sure, and as the results show, it's got the right balance of power, handling and reliability to be fast, and last. If the low-end commutation problems were sorted it would have had a strong chance against Luke's bike, even before Luke's bike slowed down. PaulD mentioned plans to start over and build something completely new for next time, though...

 

[Kurt]

Thanks for sharing the pics. The 80-100 looks like it has stock winding's. Always hard to tell from a photo but the gearing looks reasonably tall for 66v. I would be interested to know the final ratios. 24" wheels?

Is there a build log of this bike?

Kurt

 

[AussieJester]

@Kurt re: windings, definitely look stock
IIRC though Paul changed out stock bearings and shaft?

One thing i particulalry like about Paul D's, aaaand Farfles bike also
is they both still resemble a functional bicycle, more in the 'spirit'
of the e-bicycle i guess you could say? ... Take nothing away from Luke's build
it also has its merits... jm2cw

KiM

 

[liveforphysics]

I believe PaulD said his motor was 100% off-the-shelf stock.

He had the screws that retain the little skirt bearing holder fly out in the 1st heat! I think it only had 2-3 of them left IIRC (did you put some back in there?, I don't remember)

After finishing the 12 lap ultimate race and winning, we checked his motor temp, I can't remember what the winding temp was though, I think it was just slightly over the boiling temp of water IIRC, but I can't remember. lol

 

[Kurt]

I believe PaulD said his motor was 100% off-the-shelf stock.

He had the screws that retain the little skirt bearing holder fly out in the 1st heat! I think it only had 2-3 of them left IIRC (did you put some back in there?, I don't remember)

After finishing the 12 lap ultimate race and winning, we checked his motor temp, I can't remember what the winding temp was though, I think it was just slightly over the boiling temp of water IIRC, but I can't remember. lol

100deg - C 212 F Not what you would like to hold in your hand. But hey it didn't burn up in smoke. The 1st thing I did was locktight the can screws.

I am just interested in the gearing ratio compared to my trike with same motor and a very similar drive line.

What was the bikes max speed with enough road was 49mph maxed out.

My gearing is giving me .625 MPH - volt . I would get 41mph at 66v with my gearing. So I think he was geared a little higher as he at least did 49mph on 66v.

I think I need to look into one of them 24 fet controllers and up the amps.

Kurt

 

[PaulD]

Yeah, I probably should have used locktite on those screws after re-assembling the motor. They were such a PITA to remove I figured they wouldn't come loose. Everything on the motor is stock. Gearing is about 10:1 with a 24" wheel. I'd say top speed on a flat road isn't much above 50, so gearing was about perfect for that straight.

 

[SoSauty]

Agreed the 24 fet allows a nice hi-voltage use. I suspect the comparitively low 12S 44.4Voltage is what caused the 3220 to melt. My Astro had an open can and a CPU fine finned heat sink with 20Xs surface area. According to the hub simulator, hi-voltages are the ticket for hubbies for sure. A testimony that amps contribute more to heat than voltage. (This stands corrected by LFP) Still, 233f after 4min to cool, sounds to be the limit before smokin' a motor. (P.S. Thanks again Paul for lending a hi-amp charger to get me back on the track, even if it did earn me a nickname :wink: )

Some of the Cloud9/RockShok rear shocks only have about 2" travel. The 5-8" swingarm travel on Mtn bikes is due to the arm providing a lengthier radius thus longer arc. Shouldn't be too difficult to place the shock, or 2 shocks, out by the axle rather than around the bottom bracket. That should provide enough dampening for a butt to notice.

Sk8norcal

maybe time to race against the moped racers for more competition..

Yep, Farfle will find a way to tweak a tad more power and get the tires to track those corners. Thud will bring out his new Turnigy 120 (100cc electric). Etard will race a Turnigy80-100(80cc electric), same as Paul's, but with a 2 speed shifter. It's now to the point where some of us won't have the skill or time/$$$ budget to run with the pack. Doubtful the Morinis will want to be lapped either. Oh, the times they are a changing.

 

[Lyen]

I believe PaulD said his motor was 100% off-the-shelf stock.

He had the screws that retain the little skirt bearing holder fly out in the 1st heat! I think it only had 2-3 of them left IIRC (did you put some back in there?, I don't remember)

After finishing the 12 lap ultimate race and winning, we checked his motor temp, I can't remember what the winding temp was though, I think it was just slightly over the boiling temp of water IIRC, but I can't remember. lol

I witnessed Paul S checked the motors temperature on both your ebike and PaulD's ebike about 4 minutes after the Ultimate race.

The motors temperature were at:

Luke's ebike at 216 F
PaulD's ebike at 233 F

A typical hall sensor generally retired at around 120 degree Celsius. PaulD had the advantage if he mounted the hall sensors externally. :wink:

 

[Lyen]

Yeah, I probably should have used locktite on those screws after re-assembling the motor. They were such a PITA to remove I figured they wouldn't come loose. Everything on the motor is stock. Gearing is about 10:1 with a 24" wheel. I'd say top speed on a flat road isn't much above 50, so gearing was about perfect for that straight.

You may want to consider using the Nord Lock washers.
http://www.nord-lock.com/

I think Shinyballs who was also at the race last week is still selling it:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25721&p=398599&hilit=nord#p372045

 

[liveforphysics]

Agreed the 24 fet allows a nice hi-voltage use. I suspect the comparitively low 12S 44.4Voltage is what caused the 3220 to melt. My Astro had an open can and a CPU fine finned heat sink with 20Xs surface area. According to the hub simulator, hi-voltages are the ticket for hubbies for sure. A testimony that amps contribute more to heat than voltage.

Complete 100% conceptual fail.

Thud will bring out his new Turnigy 120 (100cc electric). Etard will race a Turnigy80-100(80cc electric)

Where do you pull these 100cc and 80cc numbers from?? You know there have been 100cc engines with over 100hp... (compound-turbocharged 100cc 2-strokes on methanol). A bone stock off-the-shelf RM80cc engine makes over 21hp...

 

[Kurt]

Where do you pull these 100cc and 80cc numbers from?? You know there have been 100cc engines with over 100hp... (compound-turbocharged 100cc 2-strokes on methanol). A bone stock off-the-shelf RM80cc engine makes over 21hp...

+1 on this . I had a little rm80 when I was 13. I remember that thing throwing 100kg adult off the back when it hit power band and lifted the front wheel. Another thing is you could ride it all day without overheating because even though it was only 80cc and had a stack over power for its capacity. It still wasn't on the ragged edge like a small electric motor would be at even 1/2 that power.

I love electric but That dinosaur juice has got some power !

Kurt

 

[Ypedal]

I dont know how old you are, but the current generation liquid cooled 85's are freakin awsome.. my friend's daughter had a factory RM a couple years ago and i was the pit crew.. at 200 lbs that thing pulled me like nothing.. ( gutless at low rpm, but rev the piss out of it and hold on.. cant imagine a 500 .. )

 

[dogman dan]

Well, tomorrows Friday. I guess this means no handlebar video was ever shot fromt the E bikes?

I know how it can be though, half the cams on the track never get turned on correctly in the exitement of the lineup. Or you end up with 10 laps of footage of your foot, the sky, or something.

 

[Thud]

here is a veiw from the team farfle buke dogman:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=31157&start=210

 

[dogman dan]

Been looking for vids in pics section too, but missed that thread. Thanks!

A few miniuites later. Ahh, that's better. Very noticeable how much faster the ebike heat was than the slower guys filming in the gas heats. Cool to see the whole race nearly silent except for a few tires squeals, then enter the pits to the sound of rap rap rap.

Very surreal, to see an all electric heat. I expect the gas bike sounds now.

 

[Kurt]

I dont know how old you are, but the current generation liquid cooled 85's are freakin awsome.. my friend's daughter had a factory RM a couple years ago and i was the pit crew.. at 200 lbs that thing pulled me like nothing.. ( gutless at low rpm, but rev the piss out of it and hold on.. cant imagine a 500 .. )

I'm 33,
Mine was late 80's first of the water cooled 27.5hp stock. It was way ahead of its time. The 2010 models are only 28hp . So back in the day when I was lucky to weigh 50kg and the bike is only 70kg so total weight with rider was 120 kg with 27.5hp!! That was my introduction to motor powered transport flying around our farm at 60mph - gearing limited.

even the 1979 models had 15hp!

I think between fast dirt bikes that and a decade of playing with highly modified light weight Honda cars has left me unimpressed with the acceleration of most electric bikes in comparison. But hey I try and treat the two differently and they are both fun.

Kurt

 

[SoSauty]

The 80cc and 100cc numbers come straight from the HobbyKing site. Then look at Turnigy80-100, multiply and take the 1st 2 digits, wah-la 80. The Astro 3220 is 3.2" X 3.4", or 81mm X 86mm. Multiply mm one gets 69.66 round to 70cc. It's just a rough gauge of engine size/mass to dissippate heat. Turnigy 80-85 gives roughly 68cc size/mass. The Turnigy 120 is listed as 100cc equivalent.
https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=5142
Gotta read down aways;

Equivalent: 60-80cc Gas Engine

I suspect the ES boys to be pushing those Turnigy's to the highest of a HK given range.
(We may need to use the imperial foot to measure your(Luke) motor mass :wink: )

Still, the 3210 ran 12 laps on 12S@70+amps and the 3220 died on lap ?7 on 12S@140amps.

 

[Kurt]

Still, the 3210 ran 12 laps on 12S@70+amps and the 3220 died on lap ?7 on 12S@140amps.

I could be wrong but is not having Amp limiting just asking for trouble with the Astro motors and most likely the Turning motors to. The 80 - 100 on paul's bike was limited to 100A and by the sounds of it temp readings during racing conditions this is the upper limit before overheating even with a light weight rider.

The 3220 is around the same size motor as a 80 - 100 so pushing 40% more Amps wouldn't the 80 - 100 have burned as well under the same conditions?

I know people have feed both motors a lot more amps than that but its usually burst and not racing conditions.

perhaps halls and a 24 fet ebike controller or The new RC CA is the answer to non melted Astro motors fit for racing.

Kurt

 

[SoSauty]

Sorta the point I meant to make but didn't get it all out. The Astro is closer in size to the Turnigy80-85 and just a bit smaller than the Turnigy80-100. Almost certainly, the hi-amps was the A3220s' demise. What I meant by lo-voltage being the problem is that by having higher voltage available, I could've dropped the amp use down, (raised the rpm) and still had the same power.

Under some circumstances, current limiting has created problems. The CA current limiting developed here on ES holds promise. Paul equipped his motor with hall sensors, which permitted the use of the higher voltage sensored controller, a proven solution. I have a Fighter Cat controller/ESC rated for 16S and planned to set run it at Tucson 10/29. It'll make a nice table prize at the Spring race

 

[liveforphysics]

The 80cc and 100cc numbers come straight from the HobbyKing site. Then look at Turnigy80-100, multiply and take the 1st 2 digits, wah-la 80. The Astro 3220 is 3.2" X 3.4", or 81mm X 86mm. Multiply mm one gets 69.66 round to 70cc. It's just a rough gauge of engine size/mass to dissippate heat. Turnigy 80-85 gives roughly 68cc size/mass. The Turnigy 120 is listed as 100cc equivalent.
https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=5142
Gotta read down aways;

Equivalent: 60-80cc Gas Engine

I suspect the ES boys to be pushing those Turnigy's to the highest of a HK given range.
(We may need to use the imperial foot to measure your(Luke) motor mass :wink: )

Still, the 3210 ran 12 laps on 12S@70+amps and the 3220 died on lap ?7 on 12S@140amps.

Hobbykings CC rating is for the mounting plate size on RC aircraft... Likewise, RC aircraft engineswimm are designed for constant WOT rpm droning along forever without overheating, and the RPM are severely restricted by the prop diameter, so the engines are crippled to run at like half or a third the RPM a kart engine or anything you're putting on a bicycle could run.


Secondly, rating a motors lower by its volume is simply insane. Lol. My motor never spun over 3,000rpm at this last event. I could have made identical power with 1/3rd the motor size if it was spinning to 9000rpm, saved a bunch if weight, and had a faster setup, but I didn't want the complexity of a 2 stage drive.

Any electric motor is not goin to output more than you put into it. If for example, your bike would have used 2 x 3220 motors in series on the same controller, (motors at half the turns to have the same RPM on your pack voltage) you would have had exactly the same performance, (slightly worse from a heavier setup), the only difference would be that it would be sharing the heat between 2 motors and maybe not smoked. It would have been no advantage otherwise, not pulled a bit harder, just end up being more reliable. You can't try to class an electric from motor size, its just absurd. The folks making reliable setups get punished and the ragged edge setups get rewarded, and the class divisions still aren't remotely indicitive of the performance.