Softail is PERFECT for ebike

[veloman]

After over 2000 miles of ebiking on rigid/hardtail mtn bikes, I've now experienced the PLEASURE of a softail ebike. My latest build: Proflex 853 from 1993.

Even riding a hard saddle like in the picture, and 1.5" wide tires, it was a plush comfy ride, WITHOUT the pedal power robbing of full suspension!

I was able to sit the entire time over these rough roads that use to smash my bike into me.

This is what I've been waiting for, for so long! I can ride efficient, smaller 26" tires at higher psi.

The only downside is that high speed handling seems a little squirmy, but that's okay, I'm not on a race track and I'm not going over 35 or 40mph.

I do need to upgrade the brakes though. Cantilevers aren't going to cut it in an emergency.

The rear 'shock' is homemade, as the original elastomers died long ago. I used 3 test plugs (just the rubber) and a 3 inch spring from the hardware store.

The beauty of this design is that it soaks up the pavement imperfections, but also doesn't significantly reduce your pedal power when standing. PERFECT!

 

[qtipslea]

Very nice bike. I especially like how it seems to have full suspension while still giving you that nice diamond frame for battery.

Can you buy this type of build new or does it always have to be custom made?

 

[MadRhino]

The next step is building on a recent high end DH or Freeride bike with 8 in suspension travel. Then you will experiment adequate geometry and stiffness for high speed.

 

[Hillhater]

.. What you are experiencing is the effect of short travel suspension, which is ideal for an "on road" Ebike.
Full DH suspension 4" or more travel is not required 99% of the time on road, and simply adds excess weight and flex.
If you look closely at the spec's, some current 2011 model road /hybrid bikes are available with similar "soft tail" features using urethane springs in the seat stay.

 

[veloman]

.. What you are experiencing is the effect of short travel suspension, which is ideal for an "on road" Ebike.
Full DH suspension 4" or more travel is not required 99% of the time on road, and simply adds excess weight and flex.
If you look closely at the spec's, some current 2011 model road /hybrid bikes are available with similar "soft tail" features using urethane springs in the seat stay.

Yes, that is all that is needed for most roads. It's amazing what even just half an inch of travel will do to soften the ride.


Softails need to come back. They make so much sense for the majority of people on ebikes and normal bikes. The other big problem with big suspension is that you often lose precious space in the main triangle, especially the real long travel DH bikes. I have no interest in doing jumps with my ebike, nothing more than speeding off a curb/sidewalk into the road. I rode my 1998 SPecialized FSR a few weeks ago on the road and some easy dirt trails. It's definitely a cushy ride, but the pedal bob and power absorbtion sucked big time! Travel is for jumps. 1" of shock absorbtion is for the street.

I'm really excited because even though I loved my ebike's speed and power before, it was beating me up and I couldn't continue with it like that. Tonight I will do my first real ride and report back. Let's see how it does at 32mph over some rough road.

 

[veloman]

Very nice bike. I especially like how it seems to have full suspension while still giving you that nice diamond frame for battery.

Can you buy this type of build new or does it always have to be custom made?

There probably is an ebike manufacter selling some sort of softtail, but I don't know myself. I got this bike off craigslist for $50! No one wanted it because there is no market for an old 'full suspension' mtn bike that needed work. The market all wants new big full suspension, hardtail mtn bikes or straight up road street bikes.

It just gives you that 'floating' feeling, like you are separate from the road, which is mostly good.

 

[MadRhino]

1" of shock absorbtion is for the street..

1" suspension is for going slow on the street. The bikes with one inch softail are not stiff at all, and that is why you feel that it's not handling safe at high speed. No matter the travel, a rear suspension need to have a linked swingarm with dual pivots on bearings, not to compromise the lateral stiffness of the frame. Also, the slack steer angle of DH racing frames makes an ideal Ebike for speeding on the road, for they handle like a motorcycle once the preload is properly set for this purpose.

Then, your streets must be much nicer than mine, for I can easily bottom a 6 in suspension in a pothole at 35 Mph here. :wink:

 

[Hillhater]

I guess its a personal preference thing !
Many folk seem happy to ride a Walmart rigid fork /frame with only 2" tires and gell saddle for comfort ( not me!)
Others couldn't contemplate anything less than a full DH long travel set up with top line components ? ( not me either)
So who is correct ? ...BOTH ! .. its whatever makes you happy. :lol:

PS.:... 6" potholes ? Maybe you should spend a few months on a full rigid 700c road bike , to learn how to avoid those babies !

 

[MadRhino]

It's a matter of speed, and where you have to ride.

 

[neptronix]

OK, i just rode a softtail bike at wal-mart when looking at the Genesis v2100 ( or is it v1200? ).

http://www.walmart.com/ip/NEXT-Avalon-26-Men-s-Cruiser-Bike/14272884

I now see what you mean! It's the best of all worlds, stiff.. no pedal bob.. and pretty dang light
Forget curbs and potholes, but the 'no maintenance budget' roads and other irregularities should be quite nice..

I do wonder who else makes softtail bikes. I am having a hard time finding any other. Not too interested in the walmart stuff really..

 

[Hillhater]

I do wonder who else makes softtail bikes...

Try the Trek FX range, look for the " Isozone Monostay" feature on some of them.
not a lot of movement, but it adsorbs a lot of the vibration.

 

[veloman]

I do wonder who else makes softtail bikes...

Try the Trek FX range, look for the " Isozone Monostay" feature on some of them.
not a lot of movement, but it adsorbs a lot of the vibration.

I can see this shock absorber working GREAT on a road bike. 95% of the issue with road bikes is the vibration and small cracks in the pavement, not potholes which you must avoid if you don't want to damage the wheels/tires/bike.


I did 10 miles on the softail ebike tonight. It's nice but I found out that I still need to stand when going over rough areas. It's a lot better, though not as perfect as I may of made it seem a few hours ago. A real full suspension would still be noticably better on rough stuff, especially at high speed.

I also noticed how much quieter the bike is. The chain never slaps due to the rear swing arm design, and the softail reduces jarring obviously. It almost seems like the rear 'shock' is reducing the motor noise, but I could be wrong. It just seems to hum very quietly.

I could get the real elastomer replacements and see how that turns out too. Also could get a Thudbuster seatpost.

I want to avoid going to the FSR, as it will hurt my performance accelerating since my pedaling is neccessary for decent accleration. I'm not looking to run a 40+watt hour per mile ebike. Right now I'm averaging 20wh/mile and think it's good to keep cost reasonable, and still have range.

I think my new bike looks really cool though. It may have even lost a couple pounds, I need to weigh it.

 

[amberwolf]

Regarding avoiding the potholes...often enough in traffic, you can't. Most of the damage on the roads here is near the edges, but it can be anywhere, especially on bigger raods with manhole covers all over the place (often several of them in a row), with 40MPH+ cars giving you half a lane or so to work with (even if I ride out toward the middle, which is often not possible as they may refuse to give enough clearance for that).

So then even at 20MPH hitting a 1" dip where asphalt is built up around a manhole cover can be quite the shock to the wheel on a heavily-loaded-with-groceries/etc.-CrazyBike2, despite the large amount of vertical frame flex I have in such a long bike (which is probably more than those softtails would generally give me, though I have not measured it).

Some of these things are 2" or more above or below the asphalt! Not many, but they always seem to come out of nowhere, or end up in a place I can't avoid them without risking engagement with traffic going twice as fast as I am and not really paying attention to me. Worse, there's all the places the asphalt is pushed up in very high ridges along concrete edgings, especially at curves and corners and intersections. So you end up not with holes, but short high ridges several inches wide across the path of travel, and up to several feet long in one direction or another.

It's like rough surf frozen in asphalt. :lol:

I keep intending to stop and take still photos on low-traffic days/times, with a ruler or other scale object, but I always forget.

 

[dogman dan]

Just crank down the preload on a FS bike, and it rides street like a soft tail. I agree though, it doesn't take much to take the chatter out of a hardtail with hard tires. Even 20 mm of travel would do wonders for the rough asphalt.

But for the heat cracks we have here near El Paso, at least 50 mm is much better. Extreme pedal bob just means the bike is tuned too cush, and it does matter what the front shock is set to. The front and back should balance in preload. To me, a bike is set up right when a bunny hop makes both shocks compress about the same. So to me, a hardtail with a front shock is all wrong right out of the box.

Maybe you could find a suitable chunk of rubber in a junkyard to fabricate an elastomer. I'm thinking in terms of a pick up trucks cab mount or something. Or maybe a real cush skateboard wheel? Bike inner tube wrapped real tight like a rubber band? Stack of rubber washers? Stack of rubber grommets from a hardware store?

 

[RallySTX]

Mabye Neoprene bushing from the auto parts store too. I'm thinking FS for my next build as we have rough roads that get frost heaves and crack in winter.
Brian L.

 

[veloman]

That's what I did, dogman. Rubber from test plugs and a spring inside them, then wrapped a tube around it all to help strengthen it. It seems to work good, though I don't get much travel once I'm putting my weight on it.
it does act like a pogo stick, but there's no easy way to slow the return homemade style.

This thread is all about how much an improvement a softtail is over a hardtail. Many ebikers ride a hardtail and I just don't think its a good match on normal city streets.

 

[Hillhater]

Regarding avoiding the potholes...often enough in traffic, you can't. ...

AW.. I hear you, and i know exactly what you mean, ..but..
If you have ridden a rigid lightweight road bike on 700 x23 rubber you will know also that you HAVE to avoid that kind of surface, or simply destroy tyre and rim etc.
It is a completely different mental approach to riding ,...ride to suit the equipment.
Likewise, If you ride a tough FS DH bike, then you dont think twice about rough stuff, probably even go looking for it + kerbs and rocks to jump off ...because you know the bike can do it and you are accustomed to bad surfaces.
Somewhere between those two extremes is where most of us are, riding "all rounder" bikes on "normal" streets, so you cannot adopt the ultra cautious "roadie" approach as its impractical, but if you ride with the DHFS mentality on a heavy Ebike, you will have problems.

 

[neptronix]

Well, guess who just found a proflex 555 on craigslist.
I may be copying you here, Veloman.. :lol:
The 555 appears to have some holes to bolt a torque plate into in the rear, the holes are probably intended for a rear rack.
The rear dropouts are very weak though and scare me. I hope the rear swing arm is steel, then the big gap can be filled..

Seen a few of these on the 'net where they've replaced the rear rubber bits with a standard rear DS spring. Here's one example:

http://forums.mtbr.com/all-mountain/proflex-563552.html

Perhaps i will not spring for the walmart bike i've been eying.

 

[sk8norcal]

I do wonder who else makes softtail bikes. I am having a hard time finding any other. Not too interested in the walmart stuff really..

isn't a softail just referring to all bikes with rear suspension??

what you guys meant is short travel FS bikes, or x-country FS mtb....


how about a URT design ? (unified rear triangle)
a lot of wallybikes are like this,

i read they are good for getting rid of pedal bobs when standing...

I like this design also,

 

[veloman]

I think my non drive side torque arm is functioning, but I'm not sure how much. So I'm running 800watts on those tiny dropouts ( they ARE steel, look at the welds on the swingarm) I would be freaked out if they were alum). Lookat my build thread, I posted a pic. I really like the ride, just be prepared for a squirmy feel when corning fast. its so worth it over the hardtail.

 

[Hillhater]

...isn't a softail just referring to all bikes with rear suspension??...[/img]

..Only in "Harley World"
but on bicycles...No , not at all.
A FS bike has a much more complex separate rear triangle with pivots, bearings , spring & Shock, etc. all of which adds a lot of extra weight and flex into the frame.
a true "soft tail" bike is like the last pic you posted, relying on vertical flex in the chainstays to avoid the need for a separate pivoting rear triangle.

 

[sk8norcal]

I guess that term developed later for marketing reasons,
originally I remembered them being call pivotless suspension.

this Dean is still called a "softail" and its has linkages and air/oil shocks,
http://rbikes.com/product/31dean-duke-softail-mountain-bike-frame-8838.htm

Regarding FS, technically anything that has frt and rr suspension is full supension.
it doesn't have to have springs or shocks, multiple pivots...

i.e.Trek had a FS bike, one main pivot with a stack of urethane.

When that Proflex bike came out, I remembered the magazines just called it a low pivot design.

 

[amberwolf]

Somewhere between those two extremes is where most of us are, riding "all rounder" bikes on "normal" streets, so you cannot adopt the ultra cautious "roadie" approach as its impractical, but if you ride with the DHFS mentality on a heavy Ebike, you will have problems.

I ride as if my bike was made of eggshells but it doesnt' matter--unless I were to do dangerous things like simply frequently stop in traffic till empty lanes opened up for long enough to go around the affected areas (which isnt' even possible in some places), the only way to avoid the problems would be to entirely ride on side streets where there's little enough traffic that I can either slow to nearly zero before going thru the damaged areas, or go to the other side of the street to avoid them. Or in some cases, up onto the sidewalk if there are driveways to let me on (no way I could ever curb-hop these things loaded up!).


That said, I am working on a fix for the problem:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=495434#p495434
but I have to find a narrower (and slick-style) tire; the wide knobby on there will not ride well and will cause chain problems.

 

[Hillhater]

....it doesn't have to have springs or shocks,....
i.e.Trek had a FS bike, one main pivot with a stack of urethane..

and a "spring" doesnt have to be a coil of steel,..nor a shock a cylinder of oil.
Urethane is a very good "spring" with some inbuilt shock /dampening properties.

but i agree, a "soft tail" is a full sus' bike if it has a sprung fork. ( some of which use urethane "springs too !)
Its gets to be a grey area when you consider the seat stays on some carbon bikes are designed to flex and adsorb road shocks.

 

[neptronix]

sk8norcal: thanks for the tip off on that Trek. Looks kinda like a regular shock/spring could be retrofitted. Haven't checked out the proflex on both bikes yet.

I like these bikes a hell of a lot because they still give you craptons of triangle room for batteries. What i want to do is run a 50-70 mile battery in my triangle one of these days and go on long journeys. Usually, most full suspension bikes don't have larger frame sizes, or the shock just eats into the triangle too bad.

20"-23" rear suspension frames.. i'll bite