Specialized FSR, Cyclone 1900w (pics 1st page)

[Kepler]

I cant give an exact price yet but very roughly, it'll probably be around the $600 - $700 mark with a quality shock absorber. If this sounds expensive, try pricing a similar DH frame...$$$$
Later i hope to offer cheaper hardtail versions which at a guess would be around the $400 mark give or take some bucks.

Paul

No brainer as far as I'm concerned at that price. Sign me up for my winter project

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I definitely like the look of the more geometric "FSR" design over the Norco, to me it simply looks far cleaner and not like an E-Bike as much as just a very strong DH/XC frame (well yes the motor chain and sprockets give it away, but I'm talking the over-all frame design :wink: )

I would think your price estimates are very reasonable, and I am happy that you will be making a hard tail version too.

Another thought to consider, with as many looks as I get on my Tidal Force framed Kepler Drive bike, (even when I was just pedaling it for bit before I moved the Kepler drive over from my hybrid) you might make a "non e-bike" version too to just sell as a tough DH frame, I would think that it would have some appeal to DH guys since weight isn't as much of an issue as strength to them if I understand correctly.

Only thing It is lacking is a nice DREAMSICLE ORANGE or ROOTBEER BROWN or some such other silly name and a website with lots of pictures of bacon & donuts and you will sell 1,000,000's!! :lol: :lol: (Just don't tell them what kind of metal its' made of, just use terms like futuristic "unobtainium" alloy guaranteed never to rust! )

 

[Mark_A_W]

Paul

For your custom frame, I think you should look at the solid rear end that's on my Giant DH team (see link in signature below). It is technically multi-link, but the swing arm is solid, one moving part for both stays, with a huge pivot.

I've had 4 fully susser e-bikes now, and it's the only one that has felt completely solid - all the 4 bar linkage types wobbled - the XC frames are the worst.

The stealth bikes are a simple motorbike style single swingarm for a reason - robustness and simplicity.


I can help out a bit with CAD if you need, but doing CNC programming from far away without knowing the mill or setup is very risky...

Mark

 

[grandmasterE]

Paul

For your custom frame, I think you should look at the solid rear end that's on my Giant DH team (see link in signature below). It is technically multi-link, but the swing arm is solid, one moving part for both stays, with a huge pivot.

I've had 4 fully susser e-bikes now, and it's the only one that has felt completely solid - all the 4 bar linkage types wobbled - the XC frames are the worst.

The stealth bikes are a simple motorbike style single swingarm for a reason - robustness and simplicity.


I can help out a bit with CAD if you need, but doing CNC programming from far away without knowing the mill or setup is very risky...

Mark

The devil is in the details when it comes to frame design and manufacturing. Any design that is available from any of the top bike brands can be built to be strong/stiff and light. The problem I see is that a lot of people buy cheap bikes that look similar enough to the uneducated, then consider the inferior imposter to be representative of the general design. A top notch version of any of the existing suspension technologies can be competitive, and each will have their pros and cons. Uneducated and inexperienced bias will only serve to limit the possibilities.

E

 

[VSkudarnov]

On the subject of the Specialized, took it for a 25km ride yesterday with the smaller 10ah battery. It consumed 4ah, maxxed out at 62.8kmh

Nice What sort of cadence/chainring you have with 1200W Cyclone?

I'll be having a chat with a sprocket manufacturer in the next few weeks to get some non-shifting front sprockets made to suit the Eno / Dicta freewheels PCD.
Will be enquiring about having some 30t, 34t, 38t, 48t and 50t sprockets made for our use. The 50's will be handy for the Cyclone boys looking to lower their motor to crank RPM's.

I am using 13T ACS with 52T from Rennen http://www.rennendesigngroup.com/ss104.html, can still shift (have 32/48/52 hilly road setup) and a comfortable cadence of 60-65 with 24V 360W Cyclone. Need more Watts uphill

 

[etard]

That price range seems way too low, but if you can do it and make it worth your while, these should sell fairly well. If you look at the major offerings from the other manufacturers, I'm guessing those guys are pricing themselves right out of the picture for most ebikers (hence we build our own ). I have to agree with Mark on the solid rear triangle: less flex, less parts, less to go wrong, easier design parameters, easier to make, cheaper to make. There already is a Cyclone kit produced for MTB, I'm guessing this could be one of your main competitors:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=23244&p=338791&hilit=cyclone#p338791

Things I would look for from custom ebike frame:

1. 4-6" of travel
2. Multiple shock mount options (perhaps even an offset cam)
3. Lots of mounting bungs (screw inserts in frame) for long distance options and even camping
4. disc brake mounts
5. 150mm dropouts for lots of options
6. Horizontal dropouts
7. large tire clearance
8. Skateboard bearing pivots (if you go 4 bar or DW link rear triangle)
9. Internal wiring exits like the Tidal Force

Good luck Paul, we are all rooting for you to succeed on this, you have a huge knowledge base here, so please include us in your journey.

Also, If you need anybody to take one of your frames to Vegas and set up a booth at Interbike, I would be more than happy to oblige.

 

[Mark_A_W]

Paul

For your custom frame, I think you should look at the solid rear end that's on my Giant DH team (see link in signature below). It is technically multi-link, but the swing arm is solid, one moving part for both stays, with a huge pivot.

I've had 4 fully susser e-bikes now, and it's the only one that has felt completely solid - all the 4 bar linkage types wobbled - the XC frames are the worst.

The stealth bikes are a simple motorbike style single swingarm for a reason - robustness and simplicity.


I can help out a bit with CAD if you need, but doing CNC programming from far away without knowing the mill or setup is very risky...

Mark

The devil is in the details when it comes to frame design and manufacturing. Any design that is available from any of the top bike brands can be built to be strong/stiff and light. The problem I see is that a lot of people buy cheap bikes that look similar enough to the uneducated, then consider the inferior imposter to be representative of the general design. A top notch version of any of the existing suspension technologies can be competitive, and each will have their pros and cons. Uneducated and inexperienced bias will only serve to limit the possibilities.

E

Ok.

But, so my Jamis Dakar, Mongoose Pro, and Kona Dawg were all junk? Look them up.
So what's better then? How many have you tried?

It is not "normal" for an XC dual suspension mountain bike to have 5-10kgs of batteries in the frame and possibly a 10kg motor on the swingarm.

Based on my experience with 4 frames, you are full of crap.


Paul, I've been thinking about this, and I think you should stick to 4130 cromoly. No need to worry about heat treating - just cut and shut, and way lesss fatigue issues. Full-throttle has an Avante D-eight (Keewee Cromo-8) surplus to requirements - the prefect starting point. BTW, this is how Stealth bikes started out, before he moved to monocoque sheet metal.

 

[grandmasterE]

Paul

clipped

Mark

clipped

Ok.

But, so my Jamis Dakar, Mongoose Pro, and Kona Dawg were all junk? Look them up.
So what's better then? How many have you tried?

It is not "normal" for an XC dual suspension mountain bike to have 5-10kgs of batteries in the frame and possibly a 10kg motor on the swingarm.

Based on my experience with 4 frames, you are full of crap.


Paul, I've been thinking about this, and I think you should stick to 4130 cromoly. No need to worry about heat treating - just cut and shut, and way lesss fatigue issues. Full-throttle has an Avante D-eight (Keewee Cromo-8) surplus to requirements - the prefect starting point. BTW, this is how Stealth bikes started out, before he moved to monocoque sheet metal.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a mongoose pro and a jamis dakar are each crap bikes. The Kona Dawg is a decent frame for its intended use. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare your team DH to a kona supreme operator which also weighs in the neighbourhood of 40-45 lbs, but uses a similar suspension design to the Dawg. I'm not surprised that you find a team DH frame to be stiffer than a XC frame. It should be, it weighs 50% more (the frame itself is probably 75% heavier).

I understand that you've ridden 4 different bikes and in some circles that might be an incredible number, but you are in no position to accurately judge if I am full of crap. You're comparing a QR rear end to a bolt-on through axle and then ascribing the extra stiffness to the suspension design. Good thinking. I'm not sure intelligent people would make the connection but you seem to have.

I don't even know where to begin with this other than to say I think you should keep an open mind. You never know where you might learn a lesson or two if you're receptive. Maybe spend 30 minutes at your LBC and double the number of different bikes you've ridden. Eight bikes as a grand total for your entire life will be a huge number I know, but just think how much you'll know then!

E

 

[grandmasterE]

Things I would look for from custom ebike frame:

1. 4-6" of travel
2. Multiple shock mount options (perhaps even an offset cam)
3. Lots of mounting bungs (screw inserts in frame) for long distance options and even camping
4. disc brake mounts
5. 150mm dropouts for lots of options
6. Horizontal dropouts
7. large tire clearance
8. Skateboard bearing pivots (if you go 4 bar or DW link rear triangle)
9. Internal wiring exits like the Tidal Force

150 mm dropouts decrease your options. All 150 mm dropouts are 12 mmx150mm. I have yet to see a hubmotor that has 12 mm flats and a long enough axle for 150 mm dropouts.

E

 

[Mark_A_W]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a mongoose pro and a jamis dakar are each crap bikes. The Kona Dawg is a decent frame for its intended use. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare your team DH to a kona supreme operator which also weighs in the neighbourhood of 40-45 lbs, but uses a similar suspension design to the Dawg. I'm not surprised that you find a team DH frame to be stiffer than a XC frame. It should be, it weighs 50% more (the frame itself is probably 75% heavier).

I understand that you've ridden 4 different bikes and in some circles that might be an incredible number, but you are in no position to accurately judge if I am full of crap. You're comparing a QR rear end to a bolt-on through axle and then ascribing the extra stiffness to the suspension design. Good thinking. I'm not sure intelligent people would make the connection but you seem to have.

I don't even know where to begin with this other than to say I think you should keep an open mind. You never know where you might learn a lesson or two if you're receptive. Maybe spend 30 minutes at your LBC and double the number of different bikes you've ridden. Eight bikes as a grand total for your entire life will be a huge number I know, but just think how much you'll know then!

E

So, how many E-BIKE converted duallys have you ridden?


And which was the stiffest frame for e-bike use out of my old bikes?

The Mongoose Pro. 7 Series ally, robust rear end. It was not super high end, but it's not the same as normal "Mongoose", which is K-mart rubbish.

The Jamis Dakar was not a crap bike - that's a $2000 bike, a beautiful ride before conversion. Sure, it was before hydros, but it was a well spec'd XC bike that rode really well. As I learned, dual suspension XC frames are not suitable for ebike conversions (well, maybe the lightweight friction drive).

The Dawg was stiffer, but not stiff enough, and not as stiff as the Mongoose. The Dawg is a heavy XC frame, but the pivots were not robust enough for me to feel confortable with a rear motor on that frame. A Stinky would be a bit better, and would be the bare minimum imo.


And the DH team (which is no longer through-hole rear axle - so that's irrelevant) is the best I've converted, rock solid. Ask Dr Bass http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18473

Also good is the cromo Avante D-Eight, with a similar suspension design.

This isn't about how many "normal" bikes anyone has ridden, it's about e-bikes, with unusual weights in unusual places, which have been tested to death (in two cases).


Ok, you're right, a Kona Operator will probably be fine, but I've need seen/heard of anyone converting one. A Kona Bass is good too, from reports of a friend with a BMC motor fitted and frame lipos.

It just seems easier to me to go with the design that is as close to a motorbike as practical, because let's face it, we are starting down that path. Keep it simple.

 

[AussieJester]

I cant give an exact price yet but very roughly, it'll probably be around the $600 - $700 mark with a quality shock absorber. If this sounds expensive, try pricing a similar DH frame...$$$$

That price range seems way too low

Agreed...bump it up to a an even 1000 Paul I think you guys are going to like
the design, i was lucky enough to see a 'rough' sketch on Friday, they will look sweet
and sell like hot cakes, how many other full suspension dedicated e-bike frames are out there
now, and of those how many are under a 1000 bucks...? I ain't seen any.

Have fun in Esperance catch you when your back

KiM

p.s Paul you have to up that pic of the poor ol Norco covered in orange tape

 

[Kepler]

Sorry, $600 to $700 is now documented. Can't change it now

 

[etard]

There is a term.... Can't think of it at the moment... Lemme think....

THREADJACKiNG! Yes, that's it! :lol:

150 mm dropouts decrease your options. All 150 mm dropouts are 12 mmx150mm. I have yet to see a hubmotor that has 12 mm flats and a long enough axle for 150 mm dropouts.

OK, you are right on that notion, but I was thinking of disc brake flange mounted sprocket clearing issues not hub motors which can be mounted to pretty much any bike. Maybe some rear axle adapters with torque arm clamps or something of the sort especially for the hub guys. But I guess if you wanted to keep it simple the 135mm dropouts would do, as long as the chainstays and seatstays didn't bend inward till up by the bottom bracket and shock mount.

 

[Timma2500]

...

 

[Kepler]

You know I am just kidding around Paul. You need to charge enough to make it worthwhile for you. This I certainly know from personal experience. I'm onboard

 

[recumpence]

Paul,

Good news, Astro is finally releasing my motors. They had some huge government order that bogged everything down. But, they are rolling again and my batch of motors is supposedly nearly finished and ready to ship to me.


Matt

 

[gtadmin]

Paul, as per PM

 

[dingoEsride]

Awsome stuff, hope yer back gets better, I'd be very interested in a frame (pending on money sit.), would these be balanced and tough enough to handle some rough territory? not the Rockingham neighborhood type, R/C motor type drive should have better central weight distribution,
take it easy
cheers mark

 

[hydro-one]

"Astro is finally releasing my motors. They had some huge government order that bogged everything down. "

Don't u mean Military order?

The kill bots are coming!!!!

 

[Whiplash]

Ok.

But, so my Jamis Dakar, Mongoose Pro, and Kona Dawg were all junk? Look them up.
So what's better then? How many have you tried?

It is not "normal" for an XC dual suspension mountain bike to have 5-10kgs of batteries in the frame and possibly a 10kg motor on the swingarm.

Based on my experience with 4 frames, you are full of crap.



Sorry to burst your bubble, but a mongoose pro and a jamis dakar are each crap bikes. The Kona Dawg is a decent frame for its intended use. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare your team DH to a kona supreme operator which also weighs in the neighbourhood of 40-45 lbs, but uses a similar suspension design to the Dawg. I'm not surprised that you find a team DH frame to be stiffer than a XC frame. It should be, it weighs 50% more (the frame itself is probably 75% heavier).

I understand that you've ridden 4 different bikes and in some circles that might be an incredible number, but you are in no position to accurately judge if I am full of crap. You're comparing a QR rear end to a bolt-on through axle and then ascribing the extra stiffness to the suspension design. Good thinking. I'm not sure intelligent people would make the connection but you seem to have.

I don't even know where to begin with this other than to say I think you should keep an open mind. You never know where you might learn a lesson or two if you're receptive. Maybe spend 30 minutes at your LBC and double the number of different bikes you've ridden. Eight bikes as a grand total for your entire life will be a huge number I know, but just think how much you'll know then!

E[/quote]


I think the thing to remember here, is its the RIDER that makes the bike, not the other way around. I personally have taken my life into my hands ( I know ) and BEATEN MANY very high dollar bikes down the local hills with my $150.00 Schwinn Protocol!(with over 1000 miles on the frame/motor) It all depends on what you like. I think Timma will do an excellent job here without any of our help, because he will test it himself, and design or no design, if it works that is all that matters, a brand name and a large price tag does not mean anything...Except that you were dumb enough to pay it. Besides, all Marks bikes are VERY nice in most anyone's opinion..

 

[shinyballs]

Ok where to start. The frames will have to be made out of aluminium, primarily 'cos my back these days is pretty screwed up and doesn't cope with lifting or dealing with steel in any way.
Given i'm only 32, i'd like to stay out of a wheel chair for as long as i can so steel of any sort (cro mo etc) is strictly out of the picture i'm sorry (edit: with the exception of torque arms).

Can you get a "helper" to help you with the lifting and other work?

 

[Timma2500]

...

 

[Whiplash]

This is the same reason I decided to just design a box and motor setup that could be installed on most any bike. Unless you buy BIG BIG quantities of metal, it is VERY hard to find a good price! Besides, for off road use, the battery is really best placed in a backpack for easy flicking of the weight, even though I would still rather have it on the bike for simplicity. Can't you just order a bunch of bike frames and mod them like your other projects? These all seem to be working quite well! I bet you can buy a cheapish frame, and mod it to what you want for less than the materials alone and labor to build one from scratch... Hell, you could buy complete bikes for that matter and beef them up where needed and have all the basic parts to build the bikes, then just have upgrades for the customer for brakes and what not... If I still had my dam TIG welder, that is EXACTLY what I would do!

 

[grandmasterE]

I think you might still find some interest at that price range, but personally I'd have to see what we're dealing with before I would commit. With a high quality shock that's not a terrible price (quite cheap compared to MTB frames).

How much cost would you estimate heat treating would add?

E

 

[VSkudarnov]

Make a test one, announce the pics and specs (weight), build a bike on that - then there will be more convinced people. They all want to see what they are ordering/paying for