Spokes not touching on new wheel build

[LegendLength]

I finally bit the bullet and laced my 9c up to a new rim that I've had sitting around for a while. One thing I'm noticing though is the spokes aren't touching each other where they cross. In fact there's a gap of around 1/4 inch.

The original wheel was the same (I think) but I'm concerned because I read a while ago that the spokes should touch so they transfer the forces better.

I have laced it using single cross and the spokes alternate in the hub. Meaning one faces outside then the next faces inside etc.. I get the feeling I could solve it by having all the spoke-butts facing outwards but it would require re-doing the wheel. So i'm just wondering if anyone has any comments regarding the fact that the spokes don't touch. i.e. is it a bad idea, in particular for off-road riding.

 

[Ykick]

I'm new at wheel lacing but I don't think you're in severe risk territory with the way you laced. 'Seems like a lot but perhaps you're using wide rim/motor?

I noticed this when deciding whether to alternate spoke heads in the hub flange. I elected to do 'em all the same direction based on some reading here and how my original wheel was laced. They touch a little but I doubt there's much strength actually realized.

I think good quality spokes/rim will overshadow any potentially inceased strength from touching spokes.

 

[LegendLength]

That's good to know. If yours aren't touching very strongly with the non-alternating method it makes me feel a bit safer.

The motor is a standard 9c, the newer model (square edge rather than rounded).

 

[Ykick]

The motor is a standard 9c, the newer model (square edge rather than rounded).

Same as mine...

 

[StudEbiker]

Sounds like you didn't pass the spoke behind the one that it crosses to me. AFAIK, a 9C laced in a 26" rim should have the spokes touching. The problem is, not very many (if any that I've found) wheel building instructions detail building a 1X wheel, but in a three cross and 2X, the guides always say to pass the spoke behind the last spoke it crosses. In a 1X then you pass it behind the only spoke it crosses is how I read that. Someone with more experience might have something different to tell you, but that is how I've done mine and it has worked so far.

Now when I did this with the Nuvinci, I got a little messed up. The guide that comes with it said to use a non alternating pattern on the spokes and go with a one cross. I called tech support and the guy told me they always did alternating, so I did. By passing the spokes under behind the cross I ended up with too much deflection. I should have followed the guide and not the advice, but so far it's been fine.

 

[dogman dan]

I think you crossed them the wrong way. When you flip it the other way, the spokes will touch and may actually bend around each other just a bit. Look again at how you have them started, and how you crossed them. Imitate what you see on the other, presumably front wheel.

 

[bobc]

It is customary to cross the last crossing (away from the hub) behind the spoke from the other side of the flange. I can think of no very good reason to do this, I can only think that it will add a modicum of spring to the wheel (but not a lot).
I would say don't worry about it!
Bob

 

[LegendLength]

in a three cross and 2X, the guides always say to pass the spoke behind the last spoke it crosses. In a 1X then you pass it behind the only spoke it crosses is how I read that.

Yeh that makes some sense. They do say to go over for the first cross but then under for the last so I guess it could be either. If I went under with this setup it would bend the outer spokes a fair bit but as it stands they are bent anyway (outwards).

I think you crossed them the wrong way. When you flip it the other way, the spokes will touch and may actually bend around each other just a bit.

I tried to copy my existing lacing (from the original rim that came with the 9c) and I'm fairly sure I have it copied correctly. I'll take a photo now perhaps you could have a look and see if it seems too dangerous to ride on.

 

[Tench]

I used to lace this way but in recent years i have noticed a trend for wheels to be laced with the spokes over laped the other way causing some deflection to the spokes, at first i thought the wheels had been done wrong but on reflection this way makes for a "quieter" wheel. When done the way you have done it the wheel will ring like a bell when tapped, over lapped so they press on each other it has a much deader sound. I dont see the integrity of the wheel being any different whichever way they are done.

Simon.

 

[CaptJ]

I have a Phoenix II hub motor. It came laced with all the spoke hubs on the outside of the wheel. The reason for this is that it is possible for the spoke with the hub on the inside to bend the hub or crack it. This is because the hub is so large in diameter the spokes have a greater angle to the rim. The phoenix uses 12g spokes which need to be real tight. Also by having the spokes touch each other, keeps more tension on the non-drive spoke. When the drive spoke is under tension it pulls straight thus making the non-drive spoke that crosses it deflect slightly. This adds a little pull on the spoke so it stretches or flexes less.

 

[biohazardman]

I have a BMC V2S and an older 500W Goldenmotor both are laced similar to what you have done. Both have 12Ga Sapim spokes and 5K miles of not so easy mostly road miles on them with no problem. Had you not brought it up I would never have given it a second thought. That's not to say it is right or wrong cuz I doesn't know.

 

[LegendLength]

Good to know. I'm pretty sure my original had gaps in it and it seemed to handle medium off-road well (fire trails basically).

I just took it down some fire trails with 1 foot high jumps and it hasn't fallen apart on me yet! The spokes have loosened though but that is a normal break-in thing as far as i know.

 

[biohazardman]

mine loosen up two or three times and that was bout it except for the occasional one or two when I hit something big.

 

[sn0wchyld]

in a three cross and 2X, the guides always say to pass the spoke behind the last spoke it crosses. In a 1X then you pass it behind the only spoke it crosses is how I read that.

Yeh that makes some sense. They do say to go over for the first cross but then under for the last so I guess it could be either. If I went under with this setup it would bend the outer spokes a fair bit but as it stands they are bent anyway (outwards).

I think you crossed them the wrong way. When you flip it the other way, the spokes will touch and may actually bend around each other just a bit.

I tried to copy my existing lacing (from the original rim that came with the 9c) and I'm fairly sure I have it copied correctly. I'll take a photo now perhaps you could have a look and see if it seems too dangerous to ride on.

from the looks of it you've just forgot to put the spokes 'behind' each other, ie the spoke that your dinner fork is on should have passed on the left (relative to the picture) of the spoke it crosses over before going to the rim, thereby forcing them to touch. Fixing it wouldn't mean taking the whole wheel apart, just every 2nd spoke, and you could do it 1 spoke at a time and keep the wheel fairly true as you go.

As far as I know its all about load sharing under power/breaking, as it means all spokes/nipples/hub flange holes take some of the load in these situations, rather than just every 2nd one, since the spoke under tension is able to transfer some of the forces to its partner spoke. Not sure how much difference it makes though. ask JRH or some other wheel building member on es, they'd probably know the real reason why its done.

edit
now that I think about it more, having spokes touching each other could also help in maintaining tention between the hub and rim... if 1 spoke slackens a tiny bit with the spokes crossed and touching, then that 'slack' can be in part taken up by its partner. if they dont touch then you (relatively) quickly end up with a very loose spoke which is doing nothing to help keep your rim in place. I'd love for anyone to tell me if there is any truth to that thought, or whether I'm just crazy. or both... :?

 

[dogman dan]

No garantee that any particular hubmotor is laced "right". Especially if a vendor laces his own, and hires a stoner to do the lacing.

FWIW, I have one hubmotor still running after quite a bit of use that was laced with the cross wrong. The spokes do touch, but they don't have that extrat springyness the proper cross has.

 

[Ykick]

A properly tensioned and stress relieved wheel build shouldn't need much, if any, re-tensioning. The Chinese stuff always seems to need it but my wheel rebuild with eyelet rim and single butted spokes hasn't seen a spoke wrench since I built it in Dec and has about 600 miles on it. I weigh 240lbs too.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

No garantee that any particular hubmotor is laced "right". Especially if a vendor laces his own, and hires a stoner to do the lacing.

FWIW, I have one hubmotor still running after quite a bit of use that was laced with the cross wrong. The spokes do touch, but they don't have that extrat springyness the proper cross has.

lol

I got a cell-man ananda laced into a 20" rim by a doofus at the local bike shop....you know that trick you do where you take a biro between your thumb and index finger and shake it to make it look like its bending??? Well thats what my spokes look like.

Despite this, the wheel seems to have no wobbles or dips. It seems true, at around 400rpm.

The smelly lazy doofus.