Stirling Combined Heat & Power Plant available in Britian

bigmoose

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Apparently Baxi UK is currently selling/installing Stirling Cycle based Combined Heat and Power plants in the UK. These produce 1 KW of AC power and the rest is hydronic heat (hot water) I would assume they have about 3 or 4 KW of waste heat in the hot water system. ... I don't have the specs thought.

Is anyone in the UK familiar with Baxi and British Gas as referenced here?
http://www.baxi.co.uk/products/2137.htm

Anyone in the UK know the price of these units? Can you buy them outright, or are they a lease from British Gas? Anyone have a good spec sheet on the units?
 
Whispergen.com has been installing them for several years so their products have a track record you can look up. They recently shifted offices from NZ to Spain for the EU market.
 
Thanks Dak, the wisper gen uses a different Stirling engine core than the Baxi unit I believe. It is the Baxi in particular that I have an interest in... really interested if they can be purchased outright somewhere "across the pond" from the USA.
 
Looks failure eh Dave ;) Thanks for posting this. It sure is interesting to think about not paying what we do for our power here. And possibly a more efficient way of keeping the home running!
 
No worries Bigmoose,I love Stirling engines, though I've never a working engine apart from toys. I imagine if everyone had one as a boiler we could get rid of a lot of power stations. It looks like its eligible for a feed tariff of 10 pence/KWH in the UK (normal supply price is 12-14 pence)
http://www.fitariffs.co.uk/eligible/levels/

I wonder how quiet it is?
 
Nick, thanks for that table! You explained a lot to me with that about what is going on with alternate energy in the UK. My word, look at the tarriff's for wind and solar! 30 to 40 pence per KWh!! ... for 20 years, and they are inflation adjusted! Did I do this right, They are going to pay me 0.47 to 0.63 USD for every KWh I pump into the grid from wind and solar, and 0.16 USD per micro CHP KWh. If that were here in the US, a 20 KW diesel genset would be running 24/7 on 10% diesel and 90% natural gas and my shop/lab would be toasty warm on this 24 degF morning!

Interesting the various incentives around the globe.

As for quiet, they show a suspension mount for the Stirling capsule in the data sheet, and have shown installations on the laundry room wall. I think they had extensive testing in the UK and perhaps Germany in past years. I would think it is reasonably quiet, but do not know for sure.
 
So gee, I got into this forum to tell you about these Sterling engine backyard generators, but the next best thing is to find I'm getting to respond to someone saying the stirling engine is "Reasonably quiet." It was finding this video that had me wanting to mention combined heat and power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MGLGQYonsg&feature=related

Not enough to watch, you've just got to turn the sound up and listen. This was considered a quiet engine for most of the 19th century, an alternative to the steam engine. Scary. Perhaps you've heard the nickname of this particular engine: The DINGFUTZER! (Eventually the word was applied to any loud, odd functioning machine.) Imagine a neighborhood with one of these in every backyard. The car makers have tried to make this viable for your daily driver. Imagine a freeway full of cars with slightly less smog, slightly better gas mileage, considerably louder that today's cars.

These homes are likely to also have solar, wind turbines, all sorts of reverse metering.
 
Dauntless said:
Imagine a freeway full of cars with slightly less smog, slightly better gas mileage, considerably louder that today's cars..

Why would you compare a 19th century engine to modern car noise levels ? :shock:
dont you think that there may have been a little development of this technology since that Quadricycle was built ! :roll:
 
Hillhater said:
Dauntless said:
Imagine a freeway full of cars with slightly less smog, slightly better gas mileage, considerably louder that today's cars..

Why would you compare a 19th century engine to modern car noise levels ? :shock:
dont you think that there may have been a little development of this technology since that Quadricycle was built ! :roll:

Huh? Hmmm, any further development of the Stirling engine has FAILED. (I should put 3x eyeroll there.) Which is why it HASN'T gone back into use for cars. Beyond that I can state my own shock at your question. Why WOULDN'T I be comparing a 19th century engine to modern car noise levels in a statement about efforts to bring it back?????????????????
 
One of our members helped design the stirling engine powerplant that used the heat from isotope decay to power a deep space probe that is soon to be launched to travel out past our planets perhaps checking out Jupiter and its moons or hopping a comet. (feel free to correct me if i got any details off) ... did a slight edit for you Luke! Hope you don't mind.


Why did they use a stirling? Because nothing has been made thats better at converting heat to electricity. Stirlings can be absolutely dead silent. So silent that you could set your ear on them and not be sure if its running or not.

The cool part about this setup, is the waste heat goes into your hot water heater, which is energy you were going to use anyways to heat your water. It effectively makes the machine close to 100% efficient on a system level. I think its pretty cool, but the price seems high on this version, and the output seems low.


Now if that member could design a DIY makeable free piston stirling and hot water heater that is scalable and able to be made from a few hundred bucks of off-the-shelf hardware wouldn't that be great? And make the plans all open source of course. :) The world could use that.
 
The engine I designed and had a provisional patent on was simpler then a Stirling and I believe it should be able to produce greater efficiency. It is just 2 discs that spin out of time to each other and they spin away on one side and together on the other side. I know we can make it cheep! I will try to find pictures. It was all on my computer that crashed! I let it go to public knowledge because I could not afford the full patent!
 
In my machine shop class, the final project was set in front of us and we were told: "Build this (Stirling) engine." I went nuts, building couplings, ball checks, things not required to simply hook the finished product up to the compressed air and let it run. Oh, the things I imagined building with it.

But then I love that stuff. I have copies of the 'Boy Mechanic' series. ("The ideal book for every wide awake boy.") As a kid I checked out the various books like that from the library and did all kinds of things with them. If only there weren't already better ways to do the things depicted in those books. I love the idea of building an all metal or all wood car, but I've been to school for composites and I understand which is the better way to go. I wanted to make either the Flymobile http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/popular-mechanics/The-Boy-Mechanic-1000-Things-for-Boys-to-Do/How-To-Make-A-Flymobile.html or maybe the boys motor car. (Starting on the 8th page here of the entire Vol. 3, ONLY 800 THINGS FOR A BOY TO DO!) http://www.scribd.com/doc/58600984/The-Boy-Mechanic-Vol-3-800-Things-for-Boys-to-Do

Of course this would be powered by whatever Stirling engine I needed to build, plus my 10 gallon portable air tank. Once I'm done with it, where would I keep it?

Modern medical science has found a use for leeches, a creature that will gladly suck dry an infected cyst, etc. In the right situation you can use almost anything. That Stirling engine sure does throw off a lot of heat into those homes, I understand that's the key to making it useful, capturing and venting that heat into the house. So do I also understand you don't want to run your Sterling on a hot day? You can build something to work some of the time, you can build something to work much of the time, I'd prefer to build something that works about all of the time.

Not sure how much money Detroit spent trying to create a "Modern" Stirling to be at least less polluting, more efficient. The short answer to the question of what happened is to say they failed. But oh, there was such great promise.

A lot of things work on paper; I even have a certificate that says I'm some sort of machinist. But ultimately it has to work in a practical manner. They tried so hard to mix water into aviation fuel during WWII, not only to save fuel but to carry the heat away from the engine in a manner better than the unburned fuel does. A basic inefficiency of the internal combustion engine is that it needs to vaporize unburned fuel for the cooling action. Using water instead looked so good on paper, they just needed to make one of their ingenious approaches work. Now you have alcohol fuel, which readily mixes with water. Alcohol doesn't carry away as much heat as gasoline does, but water carries more. Will they really be able to use water in alcohol? Can they keep it from rusting out the engine? Will it (Insert problem here)?

I like novel approaches. I do not like enormous hopes attached to bandaid solutions. There's a reason the use of the Stirling engine diminished, that reason is that it's not as good. Space X right here in Southern California is building space delivery vehicles with off the shelf technology, they just read what's been done in the past and recycle that technology for a fraction of the cost. They may get a lot of satellites into space for considerably less than the cost of NASA, but they won't be coming up with the next big thing.

Don't know whatever came of my Stirling engine, though I'm sure it's around the house here somewhere. Darn, but I have to be realistic about my chances of building the next big thing. Ah well, I was the kid that build the treehouses in the neighborhood, today I fix or build something that leaves people asking "How did you do that?" Even when it's not so impressive, it's more than they can do. The way I DIDN'T do it is by letting myself become addicted to an ideal that just HAS to work, it just HAS TO.

I may never build or fix the next big thing, I may never build the electric offroader that wins the Baja 1000. (I have great fun trying to come up with a way.) But lord protect me from ever building the next Dean Drive!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_drive

http://deanspacedrive.org/?p=376

And it can be all yours.

http://terrificshare.com/search/%7B9A08D6BB-EF2E-48C1-A610-ACB56B578839%7D.htm

1155053699_The_Boy_Mechanic_3.jpg
 
Nice read dauntless! For those that may love Stirlings here is an old report from 1986 that many may not know existed. I find the specifications on page 38 very interesting.

..............................Stock Celebrity..........Stirling Engined Chevy Celebrity
MPG...........................31............................41
0 to 60 ......................13 ...........................12.4 seconds
HP .............................92...........................83
 

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bigmoose said:
Did I do this right, They are going to pay me 0.47 to 0.63 USD for every KWh I pump into the grid from wind and solar.

You're close, but not quite. They pay 43.3p (0.63USD) for every KWh you generate - regardless of whether or not it goes in to the grid (i.e. You get paid for the stuff you use too). On top of that, they pay another 3p per kwh for half of what you generate as they cannot tell how much is pumped in to the grid (no export meter, only generation), so they assume 50%.
In reality, with my diddy 2kw array, about 80% of the energy I produce ends up in the grid. I simply dont have much that uses more an a few hundred watts. Now if I had AC, that would change...
 
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