Strongest/best rear wheel for heavy cargo e-bike!

[orange streak]

Im seeking to have the very best 26" rear wheel built for my mid drive motor, yuba mundo cargo e-bike to support my new 7kwh battery!, which turned out to be unfortunately 90 lbs.(pounds)!, which needs to be on the rear platforms for this build. As a matter of fact I need the best rear wheel possible. I currently have a stock 48 spoke tandem yuba rear wheel with 14 gauge spokes, & 14mm axle, but I have broken many previous ones before with 96 pounds of lead batteries, and need a better setup to support the weight, speed, uneven road & powerful mid drive motor. I myself weigh 225#. The chain currently is very close to the current 2.5" maxxis tire, and I enjoy this big tire absorbing bumps while also pumped to <72psi for times of high efficiency, especially for upcoming world guinease range record.
I would like to have help deciding what is best for my bike as I have been learning. All I have gathered is to use a storng bicycle wheel or a moped rim & tire. A 19" moped wheel setup may take to much energy, watt hours per mile (goal is 20-25wh/mile), and I would need less than a 2.5" smooth road tire, which unfortunately doesn't run high pressure. Or ive seen a 2" wide bicycle rim with a 48 spokes, with a 4 cross lace pattern.

Should I get a steel bicycle rim or a aluminum rim, & 12 gauge stainless double butted spokes, with brass nipples? Looking for a wheel builder, considering Holmes hobbies. Need advice & a builder.

On the last note, a alternative & final sprocket setup is being decided. Probably a hub with disk flange holes one both sides to allow a disk brake on left side, along with a rim brake.
& mount the sprocket on the peddle side along with a freewheel adapter, then screw on a 5 speed freewheel, should work out the clearance issues I hope, because can't mount a sprocket and disk brake on other side.

What kind of setup do i get for a strong wheel build and efficiency?, for such s demanding task. The bike should weigh about more than 165 pounds!
View attachment 3

 

[amberwolf]

A 19" moped wheel setup may take to much energy, watt hours per mile (goal is 20-25wh/mile),

If you look at my SB Cruiser trike thread, where I carry cargo heavier than most (and which wiggles a lot, too), you'll see I"m running Shinko SR241 moped tires, 2.5" wide, though smaller diameter than you need, on 20" ex-Zero Motorcycle rims (still ligth enough to be bike rims but tougher than any I've used, and wide), laced to the hubmotors with Sapim 13/14g butted spokes, radially. These wheels not only have to carry the cargo with vertical loads, but also take a lot of side loading in turns and when the cargo wiggles and moves around while I"m riding.

For Wh/mile, I don't see much, if any, difference between the Shinko tires at about 30PSI+ and the various bicycle tires i've worn out (very quickly, some in only few hundreds of miles, much less for some others) at anything from 50-65+PSI. But I feel a huge difference in ride quality (better with Shinkos) and the Shinkos also wear much better and grip better, showing almost no visible wear in the maybe 3 months I"ve been using them so far, where other tires wore out completely or just came apart in that time (or less).


That said, I'm also just using normal medium-width 26" front bicycle wheels on Yogi's trailer, which doesn't see quite as much weight or side loads as the trike itself (which has my weight and the trikes to contend with, as well as the dog (formerly with Tiny, now with Teddy)). All I did with the wheels was make sure they were tensioned and trued, before using them (saved from other old bikes). It hasn't been in service very long, only as long as the Shinkos, but so far has had no wheel problems, or tire problems. The tires are regular bike tires (Kenda Kross type, cuz it's what I had available), with slime protection strips inside them, and old thick tubes cut to make liners inside those, and thick tubes inside those, cuz all the crap on the road edges and not wanting to have to deal with a flat on a heavily loaded trailer in the Phoenix heat. (but I do carry a whole spare wheel with tire/etc already on and inflated, just in case).


As for spoke size, unless you're using rims built for 12g, don'tuse them--you won't be able to tension them correctly and the wheel may fail as spokes flex/break.

Use 13/14g butted so they can actually be correctly tensioned without damaging the rim.

If you use moped/motorcycle rims/hubs then you can use spokes made for those, which are thicker, and they'll be fine that way.

There's lots of info about wheels and spokes and whatnot all over ES if you read around, that will help you understand why.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, nobody ever suggested that you would have problems carrying that much battery every ride.

But replacing to a moped tire and wheel could be worth it in the long run. It will domino into 5 new problems, but in the end, finally a really strong wheel and tire that is up to the beating it will take when running fast. I assume you still wanted to run faster than most cargo bikes do.

The frame is aluminum right?

 

[orange streak]

Well, nobody ever suggested that you would have problems carrying that much battery every ride.

But replacing to a moped tire and wheel could be worth it in the long run. in the end, finally a really strong wheel and tire that is up to the beating it will take when running fast. I assume you still wanted to run faster than most cargo bikes do.

The frame is aluminum right?

Thanks to all trying to helping me out. The yuba bike is a high tensile steel frame. Yes, I can see a aluminum bicycle rim not up for the task with 12 gauge spokes. For me at this weight, going fast or faster than 20mph, & hitting uneven road patch, its all over for the yuba wheels, every single time!!! Moped rims would be more attractive if able to fit 26" bicycle tire.

Is their & can a steel bike rim handle 12g spokes?
Can you get stainless double butted sapim 12ga spokes?
If going moped or motor cross rim, what is the best smooth road tire? Should I instead go with even thicker spokes?, or stay above 12guage.

 

[orange streak]

If you look at my SB Cruiser trike thread, where I carry cargo heavier than most (and which wiggles a lot, too), you'll see I"m running Shinko SR241 moped tires, 2.5" wide, though smaller diameter than you need, on 20" ex-Zero Motorcycle rims (still ligth enough to be bike rims but tougher than any I've used, and wide)

For Wh/mile, I don't see much, if any, difference between the Shinko tires at about 30PSI+ and the various bicycle tires i've worn out (very quickly, some in only few hundreds of miles, much less for some others) at anything from 50-65+PSI. But I feel a huge difference in ride quality (better with Shinkos) and the Shinkos also wear much better and grip better, showing almost no visible wear in the maybe 3 months.

It hasn't been in service very long, only as long as the Shinkos, but so far has had no wheel problems, or tire problems.

Well not to bad I gueass for a trike, but was hoping to see the difference in energy use per mile from at least a 2 wheeler, even better smooth tires. But I'm trying to focus mostly on the type of wheel required to take all this weight at constant 25mph or less. Sure though I have to admit that I want to pull hard, do small wheel spin outs, & I'd like to take it safely above 40mph for short events. So I need a deemandind wheel setup with strong spokes.

 

[Chalo]

Don't use 12ga spokes. They dramatically increase maintenance and reduce the weight a wheel can carry reliably, versus 14ga spokes. My own most reliable wheels for heavy loads have used 14-15ga or 15-16ga spokes. Thin elastic spokes allow the rim to flex inward more when bearing a heavy weight without the spokes going slack.

Do use a 48 spoke wheel. Here in Austin where we have hundreds of pedicab trikes rolling on 26 inch bicycle wheels, the Alex DM24 drilled for 48 spokes is the most popular choice for its endurance and cost effectiveness. These trikes don't go terribly fast, but they routinely see loads of a thousand pounds or more on surfaces ranging from city streets to dirt and sand.

High tire pressure is harder on your wheels and every other part of your bike. It can cost you speed, too, because all the energy transmitted to you and your bike as shocks and vibration comes directly out of your forward motion and can't be restored to the system like tire deflection can. There's a balance to strike where you minimize rolling friction in the tire but also minimize bump losses, and that pressure is usually lower than the tire's maximum pressure rating. The surface you'll be riding on is the most relevant variable.

Another thing I have learned from my own heavy lead powered e-bikes in the past, and from pedicabs, is that whenever possible, you want to cushion your load for the sake of the bike. Suspension or even simple padding attenuates the peak forces that your cargo can transmit to your bike's frame and wheels. My own observations of my e-bikes suggests that hard mounted battery packs beat up wheels similarly to three or four times as much rider weight, simply because they're not compliant. Mechanically suspending your batteries in the Yuba bike would be complicated, but attaching them to fabric slings or putting resilient foam underneath them would be comparatively easy.

 

[Chalo]

If you're undertaking a record attempt, you need a faster tire than Maxxis Hookworm. This tire from Compass is almost as fat as the Maxxis tire, but with thin smooth tread rubber and a fine supple casing like a road racing tire. It's not cheap, but it will make more distance for the same energy compared to any other similarly sized tire.

 

[999zip999]

What's a 90lb battery ?

 

[orange streak]

If you're undertaking a record attempt, you need a faster tire than Maxxis Hookworm. This tire from Compass is almost as fat as the Maxxis tire, but with thin smooth tread rubber and a fine supple casing like a road racing tire. It's not cheap, but it will make more distance for the same energy compared to any other similarly sized tire.

Thats a impressive tire but at $84 dollarsa tire!, no thanks that's out of my budget for tires! That is not cheap. I pay no more than $30 a tire, but appreciate the suggestion. My 300 mile goal, on a single charged battery will need smooth tires for sure and 2.3+ inch tires seem right for the weight of bike.

 

[orange streak]

What's a 90lb battery ?

Its 90 pounds of lithium ion battery, 18650 battery cells, that's also 40.9 kg of weight! Just add 5 more pound and pack is mounted, & complete. That's why I can't stress enough about the strength of a rear wheel to take abuse on roads & long trips.

 

[orange streak]

So I took time to do a little research on a good built wheel, here is what comes to mind:
(Tandem wheels) use velocity or ryde 48 spoke double wall rims or if findable 3 wall, & can have 13 gauge stainless double butted spokes with stainless nipples, & have a 3x to 4x spoke cross pattern for strength. Sounds good and may hold up, not sure, but for how long on such a beast of a e-bike I'm using. I would use the mag wheels that I have, but wish I new a person who says they can drillout the 10mm hollow axle hub and put a 14mm solid axle in. 14mm axle mags don't exist for the public, unless you have money $3000+ a wheel? The other idea I wanted to mention was some wheel builder taking a 68 spoke rim and at least 2x or maybe 3x cross spoke pattern with thick spokes may be the overkill I'm looking for? No idea where they get their hubs? I lean towards moped rims, tires, & very thick spokes but I need to know how bad the energy consumption is before deciding that route.
I can imagine coming down from a small curb with the weight & ruined my wheel! Looking to have the best rear wheel built to handle the abuse.

What do other's think on the matter please? Especially a 68 spoke wheel maybe built right would be even stronger?

 

[Chalo]

How do you propose to true a mag wheel when it gets bent?

Radially laced wheels are hugely weaker than cross-laced wheels if they have to transmit torque.

 

[dogman dan]

Back to the frame,, since it's steel, it will be possible to make some big modifications to it.

Such as running a smaller diameter than 26" moped rim, spreading the frame if needed to get chain clearance, welding on stuff like disc brake mounts, etc.

But honestly, I'd say try the strong wheel Chalo suggested first. Then you keep 26", your rim brakes, lots of tire choices, and so on.

And I'm just going to keep beating on you about that battery. You don't need to pack all of it every day. But you do need the bike to stand it on the long rides. I get that.

Chalo had a great suggestion about letting the battery move a half inch on every bump. This is a half inch less impact on the rim, every pavement crack. The same kind of thought process is why my very first home made cargo bike was made as a full suspension ride. It handled heavy loads on terrible roads for long tour rides,,, using very cheap wheels.

See my signature for that bikes thread.

 

[friendly1uk]

Keeping it bicycle, them alex 32 rims are hard as nails. They see big blokes taking big drops in competition circumstances. They are very tried and tested. 770g but they are 39mm wide so will support some tyre
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/rim/alex-rims/dx32/prd_416197_139crx.aspx

 

[ColinB]

Can you tell us more about this world record attempt? What are the parameters? Is there a maximum battery size? Time limit? Type of vehicle? Some may say a cargo bike with a 90 lb battery isn't a "normal" bike. Are you allowed to pedal during the attempt?

- Rather than increasing the battery size, why not look to improving efficiency? (Velomobile?) Slowing down also uses much less power.
- My bike is heavy. I like it, but the additional weight is a pain. Expect things to break.
- Would a trailer be an option for you?
- Solar panels allowed?
- For any parts that you use, ensure that they are readily available.

Colin

 

[orange streak]

How do you propose to true a mag wheel when it gets bent?

Radially laced wheels are hugely weaker than cross-laced wheels if they have to transmit torque.

Yes that goes over my head, a bent aluminum mag wheel is just something to toss in the trash. But mags can be torqued harder, with out breaking a spoke, oh well. A 68 spoke wheel. that is laced & spoke crossed would be neat, I've never seen anything like that before done, and would increase strength I assume.

 

[orange streak]

Back to the frame,, since it's steel, it will be possible to make some big modifications to it.

Such as running a smaller diameter than 26" moped rim, spreading the frame if needed to get chain clearance, welding on stuff like disc brake mounts, etc.

But honestly, I'd say try the strong wheel Chalo suggested first. Then you keep 26", your rim brakes.

You don't need to pack all of it every day. But you do need the bike to stand it on the long rides. I get that.

Yes the frame could be widened to 142mm drop out, or put & weld on a brake tab for the sprocket and be a sprotor brake, but frame is to pretty out of box for that, I even wax & clean it regularly.

I will keep on deciding in the use of Alex rims, sound attractive here, but I don't know why I found so many bad reviews about the rim?, keeping a eye on this, I'll decide.

Just Reapeting my self: wonder if I can get a motor sprocket with also a 5 speed freewheel on the peddle side, maybe, and worst case, is to spread the frames drop outs so it fits. This would allow a disk brake to stay on the other side & use it in combination with rim brake, for awesome braking for rear, that would mean I would have 4 brakes, two hand levers, sweet setup!

 

[orange streak]

Can you tell us more about this world record attempt? What are the parameters? Is there a maximum battery size? Time limit? Type of vehicle? Some may say a cargo bike with a 90 lb battery isn't a "normal" bike. Are you allowed to pedal during the attempt?

- Rather than increasing the battery size, why not look to improving efficiency? (Velomobile?) Slowing down also uses much less power.
- My bike is heavy. I like it, but the additional weight is a pain. Expect things to break.
- Would a trailer be an option for you?
- Solar panels allowed?
- For any parts that you use, ensure that they are readily available.
Colin

Sure for you, no prob. This guinease world record will be titled: furthest traveled on (upright) ebike on a single battery charge. Then with the time left I will see about fitting in: Most miles traveled on a e-bike in 24 hrs, will see.
No battery charging, or swapping allowed for the fist attempt, all done on a single bike frame, with no cheating trailers. A given speed will be set for best efficiency. This is a e-bike for peddle assist for the attempt will be peddled. The motor will be set to not go faster than legal 20mph, & peddled for faster speeds. & aero dynamics will not come to play for this one, but would like to see how that works on the front bread basket if possible. My efficiency needs to be under & better than 21wh/mile, hoping for a speed to get good 19 wh per mile. Hope not to exceed 23wh/mile at least. All planned on using a high school running track privately. Event will be a group effort of at least three people (team orange streak).

Unfortunately right now motor does not fit in the new yuba bike frame & looks like tube needs filed or grinded to fit,
& very bad to sum it up is the stress of agruing to keep the whole battery on bike without having to move out, long story!

As for my ride I'm doing something similar to the electric terry motorcycle which has the most battery range for motorcycles (over 200 miles), & I still have room on frame for 2.5kwh of battery in triangle, but for me who cares. Only Odyssey trikes has more battery than me at the moment on frame, but that's a trike, and my bike can carry more, good luck their! Still, maybe I'm not a up right bike and just a cargo bike? All all record attempts submitted have to be verified and approved by guineas within a given wait time, months for setting official record. Anything else you need to know? Me & odyessey trikes are looking friendly competive at each other, but I could win,

 

[orange streak]

Well thanks for all of the advice so far, I will look into the Alex rims and think about getting them. I spoke with wheel builder Bob Mould & he insisted to do both wheels because of stress on front, & wanted to do the 48 spoke wheel idea & quoted me for $1,000. Holy crap!, I just can't comment on that, maybe he is just to good for me then! Again hope wide rims and cushy big tire absorb impacts & potholes well. Considering for everyday use to lower back tire psi to maybe 60psi to absorb a pot holes, I guess. Thanks, unless any other comments feel free.

 

[Chalo]

I spoke with wheel builder Bob Mould & he insisted to do both wheels because of stress on front, & wanted to do the 48 spoke wheel idea & quoted me for $1,000.

Alex DM24 rims in 48h drilling cost $25 each from Main Street Pedicabs. Dan's Competition has 14ga stainless spokes for $0.25 each. You can build on your existing rear hub if it's in good condition. My shop charges $50 per wheel to rebuild 48 spoke wheels. You can get comparable rates from competent wheelbuilders elsewhere. To me, that's adding up to $175 plus shipping, plus more if you need a 48h front hub, for a new wheelset front and rear. You probably don't need a new front wheel, though, because front wheels are stronger than rears and carry less weight.

I don't doubt that Bob Mould does a great job and uses top notch components, but you can get excellent wheels for your purposes for a fraction of his cost.