Suggested mods for Razor Pocket Mod

[Krunchy]

Hello everyone, I'm new to e-vehicle modding in general and I have a version 20 Razor Pocket Mod that my mother won from a promotion quite a while ago. It is currently sitting inactive in our basement because all of us are over the weight limit (150 pounds). From what research I have done, the weight limit seems to be dependent on the weight the motor can reasonably move without burning out. So, I would like to upgrade it to be useable by someone weighing around 250 pounds. Here's a list of what I plan to do:

Replace throttle (stock one is on-off) with http://www.amazon.com/ScootsUSA-109-3-4277-Electric-Scooter-Throttle/dp/B00H4GN83E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405962758&sr=8-1&keywords=hall+effect+throttle
Replace controller with either http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=41_74&product_id=180 or http://www.ebay.com/itm/171321762971?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 I've heard that the YK43B likes to burn out Unite motors, but some other opinions would be appreciated.
Replace the stock on/off switch with this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Auto-Battery-Cut-Off-Switch-Disconnect-Kill-Solid-Brass-With-2-Removable-Keys-/121050693426?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c2f2eff32&vxp=mtr Not sure if this is needed but I don't know what current/voltage the stock switch is rated for.
Replace the old 2x 12v 7AH batteries with three of these in series for 36v 15AH (right?) http://www.amazon.com/15AH-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery/dp/B0090W1OZE/ref=sr_1_300?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1405994207&sr=1-300 rigged up similar to this image

(credit to rxse7en on modifiedelectricscooters).
Replace the stock 24v 250w motor (MY1016-B) with http://www.ebay.com/itm/151232108134?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 running at 36v


I do have a few questions about my upgrades, though. Firstly, which controller should I go with? I would prefer not to burn out my motor, but will the lower-amperage controller be able to supply enough power for the motor? Next, will I need to change gearing to get it to run (fairly flat ground with a few small hills) with a 250+ pound rider? Stock has an 11 tooth motor sprocket and an 80 tooth wheel sprocket for a ratio of 7.27. Lastly, will I need to rewire the Pocket Mod with larger gauge wiring to support a more powerful motor/controller? Stock wiring is (I believe) 16 gauge in some places and 18 in others. I have 20+ feet of 12 gauge on hand, but I can easily get the same of 10 gauge.

Hopefully you guys can help me out with planning this build and hopefully I can get it up and running soon.

EDIT: I just noticed the label on the motor says ZY1020 rather than MY1020. Is this a knockoff motor and should I go with something different?

 

[Dauntless]

First off I say NO to your choice of motor replacement. You're talking of replacing a near 3,000rpm ZY1020 motor (Much the same as a MY1020) with a 2,500rpm at best, thus losing a bit of your RPM at little or no torque gain. If you spend money, seek a definite improvement. Such as a 750w motor with nearly 3 times the torque. http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/PMDC-Motor-48VDC-750W-2-56N-m-used-at-electric-scootor-motor-scooter-parts-with-CE/601157_359615596.html You would also need a new controller. But you might actually be able to go up some of the hills around you with that, maybe even with an adult riding it.

But before you spend the money, try running the motor and controller you have at 36v. Perhaps you'll be satisfied.

Yours is a novelty project I'd take on if I could get my hands on one. They haven't come available around me. Not sure how much load that frame and wheels can stand up under.

 

[Matt Gruber]

The weight limit is for the frame and wheels too, not just the motor.

I looked at it but i am too close to the weight limit to buy it new. i weigh 140.
But since you have it, might as well see where it bends. So i'd get a 120T sprocket, OR take the rear wheel of the e300 and put the 80T on it. I've have 2 e300's like this on 36v, the difference is amazing. i bet it could pull 250 at 12 mph without burning up, on level ground, but if it burns up and doesn't bend/break being so overloaded, then look into a bigger motor.

 

[Krunchy]

Thanks for your suggestions.

Dauntless: The Pocket Mod has the MY1016 24v 250w motor at stock. Is the 500w motor running at 36v not a big enough upgrade to be worth the $60? Also, I have considered running it stock with 36v but I have been told that with the on/off throttle it'll burn out the motor right away due to pulling too much current from a dead stop to full acceleration. I'd have to replace the controller and throttle to even try to run it at 36v with the stock motor.

Matt: Where do I get a 120T sprocket? The highest I've seen for the Pocket Mod is 90T.

 

[Matt Gruber]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251321058051?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
i have 3 of these 20a limit on hi, 15a on low. 9.99 + 6.99 for their throttle. not exactly a lot of money to try it.
120T? i have not looked. too lazy. that is why i'd try an e300 rear wheel w/80T.

 

[Krunchy]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251321058051?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
i have 3 of these 20a limit on hi, 15a on low. 9.99 + 6.99 for their throttle. not exactly a lot of money to try it.
120T? i have not looked. too lazy. that is why i'd try an e300 rear wheel w/80T.

That looks like a decent way to try out 36v, but the shipping time on it is insane. Is there anywhere I can get one for the same or a little more with a more reasonable shipping time?

 

[Matt Gruber]

2 took 15 days
1 came in a week.
to me, that is fantastic, all the way from china shipped FREE!
my suggestion is to check CL for a local dead e scooter. i saw 1 for $25 another $100 w/new tires. these cost $699- 1200 new. take out 60# SLA and convert to Li-ion. they could then handle your weight. These have pedals so they can be LEGAL maybe, depending on you and your cops.

 

[Krunchy]

I'm on a pretty tight budget right now (sub $300) so lithium is pretty much out of the picture. I'd also like to use the existing platform that I already have, so I'll see what I can do with the Pocket Mod and then go from there in the future.

EDIT: Also Matt, when I said the shipping times were insane, I was talking about this listing http://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-250w-brush-motor-controller-for-E-BIKE-scooter-/261516233528?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item3ce3950b38&vxp=mtr which is from the same place but for $3 more and the estimated arrival is between 3 weeks and a month and a half, same for the $6.99 throttle that they sell. Have they maybe changed their shipping times since you ordered?

 

[Dauntless]

Okay, you were going to BUY a ZY1020. Still the same point applies: How fast does it go now? How fast do you want to go? If you change the gear ratios, you change the speed. If you lower the RPM without changing the gear ratios, you lower the speed. If the gear ratio went down 10% but the RPM went up 50%, performance improves all around. Going to 36v at the same wattage, RPM, same gear ratios as you posted, accomplishes nothing.

If you want a 250 pound person to ride this, that will require more power. If you want to ride up grades, (Not even steep hills) you need more power. If you want to keep up with the Olympic marathoners, (Not the fastest runners) you need more power. There's a 1,000w Currie scooter that doesn't make it to 20mph, looks like it goes uphill pretty well. 11/90 gear ratio, 2,600rpm posted, 10 inch wheel.

 

[Krunchy]

Ok, so the ZY1020 won't do what I want. Got it. Would a 1/2 horsepower 12v DC motor running at 36v give me enough torque and speed for a 250 pound rider to have decent hill climbing ability? And what would my range be like on 15AH batteries? Assuming I can get one for less than about $140 and figure out how to mount it I should be able to stay under budget.

 

[Dauntless]

The motor I posted will more than double the torque, that's 3 times the wattage. Currently it would be near useless if you tried to ride it, a slight improvement will make it suck slightly less. I haven't rode one, I can't say much. I just know 250w won't do much for you. Slight improvement won't do much.

Razor parts are often so interchangeable. If you want to run the wheel slower to the rpm they have a 9t pinion that probably fits the motor and/or a wheel sprocket that's 90t and probably fits, if you want to make it faster you pretty much have to get a higher RPM motor. If you doubled the RPM of the motor and were higher torque but stepped back a bit in the gear ratio, there's where your hill climbing gets easier while you're also faster around town.

You don't want to go all that fast on that thing, but the 1000w Currie is no speed demon.

 

[Krunchy]

The motor I posted will more than double the torque, that's 3 times the wattage. Currently it would be near useless if you tried to ride it, a slight improvement will make it suck slightly less. I haven't rode one, I can't say much. I just know 250w won't do much for you. Slight improvement won't do much.

Razor parts are often so interchangeable. If you want to run the wheel slower to the rpm they have a 9t pinion that probably fits the motor and/or a wheel sprocket that's 90t and probably fits, if you want to make it faster you pretty much have to get a higher RPM motor. If you doubled the RPM of the motor and were higher torque but stepped back a bit in the gear ratio, there's where your hill climbing gets easier while you're also faster around town.

You don't want to go all that fast on that thing, but the 1000w Currie is no speed demon.

Is the 1000w Currie a 36v or 24v motor? Do you know the part number of it so that I could try and find the best price for it?

EDIT: Maybe I would have less confusion if you could tell me how you would mod the Pocket Mod with a budget of $300, disregarding my current parts list. If you have the time to do that and you're not too busy, that'd be great.

EDIT2: Going back to what you mentioned about it having to have pedals, I've looked up the laws for electric bicycles on Wikipedia (not the most reliable source, I know). The law for Ohio states that it has to have functional pedals, no more than 20mph top speed without pedaling, and a motor under 750w. My question is are Razor scooters like this considered electric bicycles or are they categorized some other way? If they are categorized a different way, is there a list of laws governing that category that I could check out?

EDIT3: Found this motor, claims to be 3000rpm at 12v. http://www.ebay.com/itm/141285431422 Would it be safe to run at 36v and what kind of performance (speed, acceleration, runtime) would I be able to get with it? Is the second shaft likely removable?

 

[Matt Gruber]

http://daytona.craigslist.org/mcy/4541609634.html
i'd buy this and a new battery, etc.
that kids toy you have is not allowed on the street! maybe the sidewalk if cops let you.

 

[Krunchy]

Really Matt? Well, that sucks. Is something like what you posted required to be registered with the DMV to be ridden on the street or is it considered a bicycle? Is it even worth it to try and upgrade this? Keep in mind that if I don't do anything with this I'm most likely not getting a new scooter of any sort.

 

[Dauntless]

http://daytona.craigslist.org/mcy/4541609634.html
i'd buy this and a new battery, etc.
that kids toy you have is not allowed on the street! maybe the sidewalk if cops let you.

OMG, a Voy Electra. I'll second that. I have one of those. A bit underpowered, a mite small, but I still love that thing. If only you were in Florida to pick that up.

It's a good question what might come of you running around on the Mod. At 6,000rpm, if you ran the Currie 9/90t combination you'd still go over 20mph. You have to decide just how fast you'll allow yourself to go on that thing.

Currently there isn't a Currie scooter with a separate 1000w motor, it's part of a housing. No replacement available from Currie for your purposes. But you can get the oem parts. http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/36-volt-1000-watt-motor-controller-throttle-kit-standard.html

 

[Matt Gruber]

Really Matt? Well, that sucks. Is something like what you posted required to be registered with the DMV to be ridden on the street or is it considered a bicycle? Is it even worth it to try and upgrade this? Keep in mind that if I don't do anything with this I'm most likely not getting a new scooter of any sort.

No tags here. They often advertise them as DUI scooters. no license as it has pedals and is legally a bicycle.
I use my razor e300 at car shows. i use my street legal ebike for errands etc.
All you have to do is watch traffic to find out what is legal in your area. if you see several every day, than they must be ok. or ask a cop. show a picture.

 

[Krunchy]

Well there are several golf carts that are constantly driving on roads and sidewalks around town, and I'm 90% sure they don't have turn signals, brake lights, or any sort of tags. I live in a really small town that doesn't have a police station or fire station or anything like that so we're under the jurisdiction of a police station about 15 miles away. I can't remember the last time I saw a police car in town.

EDIT: Also, I found a scooter like Matt linked in Detroit (about a 2 hour drive), but it's in the same condition and they're asking $400 for it.

 

[Dauntless]

There are karts like the Gem that are street legal in California, maybe that's what you're seeing.

I looked up the VOY in Ohio, the guy has a motorcycle and a gas scooter if I remember, shouldn't be able to get what he wants for that Rocketa, either. Probably one of those people who buys them and figures he can get more for them.

 

[Krunchy]

There are karts like the Gem that are street legal in California, maybe that's what you're seeing.

No, they're just stock electric golf carts. I drove past one today, all it had on it was a rear view mirror and a slow moving vehicle sign on the back.

At 6,000rpm, if you ran the Currie 9/90t combination you'd still go over 20mph.

If I'm running that motor, though, the lowest number of teeth I can get on the motor sprocket is 17 since it has a 5/8" shaft. Is there some formula I can use to figure out a rough estimate for top speed?

 

[ARod1993]

There are karts like the Gem that are street legal in California, maybe that's what you're seeing.

No, they're just stock electric golf carts. I drove past one today, all it had on it was a rear view mirror and a slow moving vehicle sign on the back.

At 6,000rpm, if you ran the Currie 9/90t combination you'd still go over 20mph.

If I'm running that motor, though, the lowest number of teeth I can get on the motor sprocket is 17 since it has a 5/8" shaft. Is there some formula I can use to figure out a rough estimate for top speed?

If you have the motor voltage constant (or motor KV), that'll tell you how many RPM you can get from the motor per volt you put in. Basically, (Motor KV)*(Nominal voltage)*(little sprocket/big sprocket) will give you the wheel RPM; multiply by the wheel circumference to get speed in inches per minute, then use the conversion factors (or Wolfram Alpha) to go from inches per minute to miles per hour.

 

[Krunchy]

If you have the motor voltage constant (or motor KV), that'll tell you how many RPM you can get from the motor per volt you put in. Basically, (Motor KV)*(Nominal voltage)*(little sprocket/big sprocket) will give you the wheel RPM; multiply by the wheel circumference to get speed in inches per minute, then use the conversion factors (or Wolfram Alpha) to go from inches per minute to miles per hour.

Thanks for your help, but I have no idea what the voltage constants are for any of the motors I'm considering. Is there any way to find that value other than the manufacturer's specs?

 

[ARod1993]

If you have the motor voltage constant (or motor KV), that'll tell you how many RPM you can get from the motor per volt you put in. Basically, (Motor KV)*(Nominal voltage)*(little sprocket/big sprocket) will give you the wheel RPM; multiply by the wheel circumference to get speed in inches per minute, then use the conversion factors (or Wolfram Alpha) to go from inches per minute to miles per hour.

Thanks for your help, but I have no idea what the voltage constants are for any of the motors I'm considering. Is there any way to find that value other than the manufacturer's specs?

If the motor is listed as providing a given RPM at a given voltage, just divide the RPM by the voltage listed for it and there you go; other than that you could try spinning the motor up to a test voltage unloaded and with an encoder of some sort mounted on the shaft.

 

[Krunchy]

I think I did something wrong... I filled all the variables in for this motor http://www.ebay.com/itm/141285431422?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 (12v, 3000RPM) running at 36v nominal with a 17/90 gear ratio and a 12.5" tire and came up with like 630mph...

EDIT: I did it again, got a more reasonable number at 63mph, but it's still pretty high. Does it account for any loss of efficiency in the motor at higher voltages? I'm guessing rider and equipment weight will bring the speed down considerably as well.

EDIT 2: Electric motors are usually rated for their RPM at no load, right? So what type of top speed am I actually looking at? Is there a specific percentage of the calculated speed that is usually accurate?

 

[Dauntless]

Okay, I think you're getting confused enough on projecting speed that you need to forget everything so far and start over. Let's just say you're stuck calculating to the best case scenario and giving a bit extra if you like.

Let's star with your wheel. If it's 12", that means the diameter across/top to bottom, etc. The circumference of that wheel is that 12" x pi, let's call that 12 times 3.141592. When it rolls one complete revolution, it's rolled 37.7 inches. Let's set a speed limit where you should be able to safely control that little guy at 20mph. That's 1/3rd mile or 1,760 feet a minute. Divide that 1,760 by 3.15 feet, the circumference of the wheel, so you get that 560 revolutions of that wheel in one minute will be 20mph. As long as you're using a 12" wheel that's driven, the 560 revolutions will be a constant You're aiming for, not much above or below.

I offered up 10:1 gear ratio, 9/90. This would reduce the 6,000rpm of the motor to 600rpm at the wheel. At exactly 5,880rpm and if the 560 estimate is precise, you'd be going 21mph. with the original 11/80 gears you'd be going --- well, I'll let you figure it out. Take that 5,880rpm and divide by the number of teeth on the wheel sprocket. Then multiply by the number on the motor pinion. 5,880 / 80 x11 = 808.5rpm wheel speed. At wheel speed 28rpm = 1 mile per hour, that barely misses 29mph, if I'm going that speed I want to be on something better suited for that speed.

Your current motor should peak at about 2,500rpm. At best, how fast will the current rpm, 12" wheel, 11/80 gear ratio team up to take you? If you ran that motor at 36v successfully and it did indeed rev up to 3,750rpm, how fast would you be going with no other modifications? My point has been to try 36v on the oem equipment FIRST, see if you like it BEFORE you spend money. If you have a 3,00rpm motor and a 12" wheel, you can reverse engineer to know you want 5 1/3 revolutions of the motor for every revolution of the wheel. Oops, something like a 12t pinion and a 64t sprocket. Pocketbikes had a #25 chain, Learn what size chain you have. (I'm pretty sure it's a #25.) I don't know what yours has, but they had 60 through 66 sprockets as I recall. They attach differently, that would take some work on your part to get it right. Or is a pocketbike rear wheel about 12" with a tire on it" (They have 6" RIMS, the tires might be another 3" on each side.)

One mod I like to recommend. Last weekend a guy had 3 bikes, a scooter and a tiny tricycle for $5 each at a garage sale a few blocks from me. I got a 24" full suspension mountain bike, a 20" moto bike, and a 16" bike, all with front and back hand brakes. If you can find such a 16" you can pull the front forks/wheel/brakes and put them on your scooter, it should handle better and stop better. You might even be willing to let the speed edge up to 25mph. Though I haven't seen exactly how your forks go on, so I can't swear that it's doable. Oh, I also like the Meat Hooks, a bar across the front of the frame to put your feet on outside the footboard. You might have to get creative attaching that.

 

[Dauntless]

I believe this will provide the 12" size, that the chain will work, the brake will work, that at 2,500rpm the scoot would go 16mph. Meaning at 3,000rpm it would go 20mph. http://www.ebay.com/itm/200X50-TIRE-TUBE-WHEEL-RIM-POCKET-BIKE-RAZOR-SCOOTER-/150601463326 But you're going to have to figure out for yourself if that's true.

Cheaper here, but I can't count the teeth on the sprocket. http://www.electricscooterparts.com/razorpocketbike.html

(I should make sure I'm done before I start posting, eh?) Oh, more, for less. http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/rapororewhas1.html and http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/raprvrewhasc.html

55 tooth, about 19mph if the tire makes the full 12", less if it's smaller. I have no way of being sure it truly fits. The brake might be a different size, but maybe you can swap, etc.