Hillhater
100 TW
..if they are using those, then they have also invented "anti-gravity" !!fechter said:
At 5.2 Wh/kg , it would need ~~ 700kg to give 3.55kWh capacity
Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.
- Thread starter Buk___
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At 5.2 Wh/kg , it would need ~~ 700kg to give 3.55kWh capacity
Hillhater said:..if they are using those, then they have also invented "anti-gravity" !!
At 5.2 Wh/kg , it would need ~~ 700kg to give 3.55kWh capacity
I missed that. Well, I guess we can eliminate that possibility.
I totally agree.liveforphysics said:
But that is complete bollocks. :lol:
Sure, every battery has some capacitance. So what? Merely having capacitance (super or not) doesn't make something a capacitor. Every battery has some resistance too. Is it therefore technically correct to call a battery a resistor? Of course not. Its other electrical properties make it completely unsuitable to do the job expected of a resistor. And it won't last anywhere near as long as a resistor will.
Every resistor has some capacitance. Is it technically correct to call a resistor a capacitor? Of course not.
The data provided by Arvio allow us to determine what the capacitance of this device actually is. See
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5486&p=67197&hilit=0.56+farads#p67197
It is less than one farad! (Arvio claim 3000 farads). That means less than 0.1% of the energy is stored in its capacitance and 99.9% is stored in its "batteryance". It's a battery cell. It's not a capacitor. Nor is it a hybrid. Even a capacitor/battery hybrid would be expected to store a significan't proportion of its energy in its capacitance.
But what really matters are the false claims. Did you miss that they are claiming a projected life of 1,000,000 cycles and 45 years? Did you miss that they are claiming such low toxicity that it can be safely composted? Did you miss that they are claiming it can be charged in 30 seconds? Did you miss that they are claiming it will operate safely at 85 °C (185 °F)? If a consumer is fooled into thinking it's a supercapacitor, those claims sound plausible. But we both know it's an LTO cell, so those claims are ludicrous and dangerous.
TheBeastie
1 MW
Hehehe.weber said:
When watching the Arvio youtube videos etc, he was making very direct statements that they were supercaps. And considering the fact I had no interest in buying such a storage-device I never really thought too deep about it, and I thought it would just be too weird for someone to lie about this stuff as surely hes going to get found out in the long run.
But now that I see he is receving potentially millions of dollars in green renewable energy grants I can see why the lies have come about..
Just going through that thread and the WP thread which links to this https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/developing-solar-battery-storage-kits-and-creating-jobs/
The Andrews Labor Government will provide $825,000 towards a pilot project to develop solar battery storage kits and create local jobs.
A consortium of five companies, led by innovation company ARVIO, will receive funding under the second round of the Labor Government’s $20 million New Energy Jobs Fund.
Considering its the Victorian Labor Dan Andrews government I wouldn't be surprised if they are giving this guy millions, in fact, I would be surprised they aren't giving out 100's of millions to dodgy projects.
It seems like it doesn't matter where you look in renewable energy tech someones cheating on the numbers, I had to redo my calculations on Capacity Factor on wind/solar in Germany etc, because I used the Installed Capacity numbers listed on Electricitymap.org I later found they deliberately use Installed capacity from 1-2 years ago so that the current generation numbers look more impressive then they really are.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=89002&start=1850#p1374955
jonescg
100 MW
No, you only gave a shit about supercapacitors when you learned there was an opportunity to bash lefty/greenies :lol:
liveforphysics
100 TW
No argument they should just say it's LTO cells.
That said, having 1F (or any amount of capacitive storage) does still make it a capacitor that gets recharged by an electrochemical process. That electrochemical process also stores nearly all the energy.
That said, having 1F (or any amount of capacitive storage) does still make it a capacitor that gets recharged by an electrochemical process. That electrochemical process also stores nearly all the energy.
I know I've only made 2 posts to this forum and you've made a zillion. And I don't know anything about you except the posts I've read in this thread. And your handle "live for physics" makes you sound like my kinda guy. But if you insist that anything that has capacitance is a capacitor, then I'll just trust that everyone else can see the problem with this, and I won't bother arguing any further.liveforphysics said:
But I will say, my main concern with this is to reduce the suffering caused when people are induced to part with their hard earned cash on the basis of grossly inflated claims, and you're really not helping.
Ha! When I mentioned this stuff to a journalist friend of mine. His immediate response was to predict that anti-renewables types would try to use it to tar the whole industry with the same brush. So I'd like to note a couple of things:TheBeastie said:
1. You can see exactly what they are giving money to, and how much, and so you can see they are not doing any of those things that wouldn't surprise you.
2. I am most definitely a renewable energy insider, so what you are witnessing here is the renewables industry self-correcting.
liveforphysics
100 TW
Every trace on a circuit board is a cap, a resistor, and an inductor. Every wire is a cap, a resistor, and an inductor. Every motor is a cap a resistor and an inductor. Every battery is a cap, a resistor, an ionic impedance, and an inductor.
1F at pack voltage is a massive amount of capacitance, as every time you double the number of caps in series the capacitance is halved. If you start with a 10F 2.7v cap, but the time you have 10 in series to make a 27v cap it's a 1F cap.
I appreciate your input and post count means nothing here, only content. In my job designing EV and grid batteries, that capacitance which seems insignificant from an energy storage perspective still has a massive influence in cell behavior during transient charge/discharge rise times. Resistance and impedance of the cells and interconnects determines thermal loading. Cell inductance and bussing/interconnect geometry, and isolated case capacitance determines the radiated EMF. If I neglected these other aspects which a cell also happens to be along with an electrochemical storage device, my designs would not reflect/simulate real pack attributes and behavior needed for success. For these reasons the capacitance of the cell (as well as resistance, impedance, and inductance) are all real and critical aspects of the cell. This same extent of detail is required in high power EE where it's critical to model/measure every PCB trace's inductance, capacitance, impedance, and resistance to accurately simulate current rise times to understand how optimize switching speeds for current control and shoot-through avoidance deadband (or synchronous rectification timing if you're getting fancy with a controller).
1F at pack voltage is a massive amount of capacitance, as every time you double the number of caps in series the capacitance is halved. If you start with a 10F 2.7v cap, but the time you have 10 in series to make a 27v cap it's a 1F cap.
I appreciate your input and post count means nothing here, only content. In my job designing EV and grid batteries, that capacitance which seems insignificant from an energy storage perspective still has a massive influence in cell behavior during transient charge/discharge rise times. Resistance and impedance of the cells and interconnects determines thermal loading. Cell inductance and bussing/interconnect geometry, and isolated case capacitance determines the radiated EMF. If I neglected these other aspects which a cell also happens to be along with an electrochemical storage device, my designs would not reflect/simulate real pack attributes and behavior needed for success. For these reasons the capacitance of the cell (as well as resistance, impedance, and inductance) are all real and critical aspects of the cell. This same extent of detail is required in high power EE where it's critical to model/measure every PCB trace's inductance, capacitance, impedance, and resistance to accurately simulate current rise times to understand how optimize switching speeds for current control and shoot-through avoidance deadband (or synchronous rectification timing if you're getting fancy with a controller).
weber said:
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2018
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This "scientist" is nothing more than a thief. He openly admits to searching for others peoples works and copies them for his videos. At first he was going this for the love of science and he would provide the paper and details on the experiments he presented on his channel. Over the last year or two this has completely changed, however the technology he is talking about has existed for years and well researched.
The electric car trip was a complete scam to get money from viewers and businesses. His directorship/ownership with other companies no making products and investors losing millions is another concern. No independent data for his battery technology? no patents? What has happened to all the people in the lab? He said he has no money yet he has just purchased a machine for £100k... Where did that money come from? Also new premises? I smell a rat.
Maybe its his business partners? or maybe its his own greed? That Gary was involved in Sun Vault as well I believe.. His background screams scammer... Word to the wise, stay well clear of these guys!
The electric car trip was a complete scam to get money from viewers and businesses. His directorship/ownership with other companies no making products and investors losing millions is another concern. No independent data for his battery technology? no patents? What has happened to all the people in the lab? He said he has no money yet he has just purchased a machine for £100k... Where did that money come from? Also new premises? I smell a rat.
Maybe its his business partners? or maybe its his own greed? That Gary was involved in Sun Vault as well I believe.. His background screams scammer... Word to the wise, stay well clear of these guys!
Hillhater
100 TW
Who are you talking about ?farringtonj276@gmail.com said:
You have made this identical post in two different threads about completely different individuals/companies...
Robert M Smith, and Arvio (this thread).
Whilst i agree neither of them are very credible, your critisism are equally dubious !
jonescg
100 MW
But, but, I thought supercaps didn't explode or burn...?
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=69713#p69713
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=69713#p69713
TheBeastie
1 MW
Wow.jonescg said:But, but, I thought supercaps didn't explode or burn...?
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=69713#p69713
Yeah was a great thread that one, totally destroyed the argument, including if those baloney supercap modules we pure supercap in the first place.
To me I think even the first few posts at the start of the whole thread examining the idea of even if they were real whole claim of 500,000 cycles and real-world expected lifetime vs cost doesn't make them worthwhile quite interesting.
The spectacular fire is nice icing on the cake.
I have embedded the images to give folks here a taste of that thread and hopefully get them reading it.
*um edit*, I can't get over how unwilling folks are to read a single page or even a few posts on a forum.., but ,to make it clear, even this thread proved well enough the "supercap modules" are just full of lithium cells, and the aeva forums proved the "supercap modules" are well and truly just full of lithium cells to another whole level. The aeva forums thread leave nothing to argue about.
I thought LTO cells don't explode and burn like that.
Must be using recalled Hoverboard batteries.
Must be using recalled Hoverboard batteries.
ElectricGod
10 MW
fechter said:
Those are super caps, not LTO's.
There's not enough in these images for me to surmise that the fire had anything to do with the super caps or not. Maybe someone created a dead short or the charge controller was defective and over charged the super caps?
ElectricGod
10 MW
liveforphysics said:
OOH look...just bumped my post count. Yeah post counts shouldn't matter, but they do to a lot of folks.
=)
Hillhater
100 TW
But you missed the point that those guys have previously claimed , and demonstrated, that their "supercaps" wont burn or explode .ElectricGod said:
So either they lied, or they are not using supercaps..
.....or actually both !
Pajda
10 kW
:lol:
spinningmagnets
100 TW
I believe the capacity (range) of supercaps could easily be doubled, but...even at that amount of range per volume, chemical batteries remain the energy source of choice for ebikes, emotos, and 4'wheel EVs...
Of course, we won't see how far that can go, and what the next-gen supercaps can be used for effectively, until we try.
Of course, we won't see how far that can go, and what the next-gen supercaps can be used for effectively, until we try.
999zip999
100 TW
Capacity
Volume of stored energy
Volume of stored energy
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