Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

[smdub]

Damn, shinko specs say it's on 3.5 wide, but you're saying an extra half inch from their specs. Might be a bit to hefty. Wish they made this in a 19x3. Do you have any other recommendations for a tire similar to this but a bit narrower? Regarding chain placement, hmmm, not even sure about that.

No, Shinko specs the 3.50x19 at 3.66" wide.
https://shinkotireusa.com/product/sr241-series/211922
I went out and measured again. The carcass is indeed close to that (I can't get the calipers down far enough to measure so there is some eyeballing involved to line them up.) The side knobs are what stick out farther.

I went and measured the front 2.75x21. Shinko specs 2.95" width (same as the 2.75x19). I measure the carcass at ~2.80" and 3.15" across the knobs. Looks like Shinko doesn't take the side knob protrusion into account in their measurements.

 

[Merlin]

please show someone videos how to kill a pro rim with riding style. its ok for me when your dead after that. but i wonder how hard you can push
this "toy" to kill a quality rim because of "only using 2.75" tires.

i was witness of a buddy doing fmx shit. on a show he jumped right in the flat...on street...21meters...12m high in the air...flat on the street.
some broken wrists but his sm-pro wheels are not even untrue.

so how you kill a rim with a surron...cmon guys 10$ paypal for a video

Your sur ron came with quality was that "sm-pro" rims :lol:
As to your lack of experience with hammered rims, I'm sure you can find plenty of video online without my help :thumb:

No smpro stock sure but if you have that "riding style" to kill surron rims maybe switch to rims that suite your riding.

Putting 5kg tire bricks on your 5kw 50kg bike to prevent a bend rim is.... Just silly

 

[synics]

There's a way to say things without being a dick about it dude. I never said anything about "pro" rims. I'm talking about the regular garbage moto rims that come with these bikes, and not just sur ron bikes, but any bike. This pic is what I'm talking about. I have to start somewhere, maybe down the road I'll get pro rims on a higher end build. This is my first foray into electric, toe in the water at first though.



@X-nitro, thanks for the measurements bro! Maybe I'll go with that 2.75 then. I ride kinda hard, I was always an MX guy, owned a lot of bikes, and even snapped an axle on a 2 stroke Honda ATC250R once as I flipped end over end at 45 mph. I've had a ton of hardcore crashes over the years, and it's a miracle I never got seriously injured. Of course I won't ride the ebike as hard, but you never know, one bad hit...

 

[Merlin]

Dude.. But I said clearly "pro rims".
This China 10 dollar rims + heavy hub doesn't work. I know that problem too. We all made experience with stuff like that.

Even lmx first series used greedy as frock cheapest shit you can get. I'll made marks with bicycle plastic levers in this rims.
Could bend that shit nearly with fingers.

But to be honest. Those stock surron rims are not bad.

I ported some years ago also a container of motors. Some laced some bare rims. But even that rims weren't that bad I had on stock lmx. And they cost 11 dollar only.
Can't imagine what those chewing gum rims cost if you buy 100 + of them.
....5 dollar?
It's not worth spending a single minute on lacing that shit.

3 inch tires are something like the sweet spot with surron rims. (plush ride vs added weight)
They hold pretty well with 220lbs rider doing Offroad stuff with some trialing-rocky-upstairs parts.
Buddy is riding 100/90/19 rear. Fat ass tire, crawls up anything but if we switch bikes he immediately feels the weight difference. Bikes feel more light... More playfull.

If you wanna plush and rim protecting as possible, check some sites back the 17x3.5 surron.

Good geometry, alot of rubber and only weight of the 3" version.

 

[synics]

Dude.. But I said clearly "pro rims".
This China 10 dollar rims + heavy hub doesn't work. I know that problem too. We all made experience with stuff like that.

Even lmx first series used greedy as frock cheapest shit you can get. I'll made marks with bicycle plastic levers in this rims.
Could bend that shit nearly with fingers.

But to be honest. Those stock surron rims are not bad.

I ported some years ago also a container of motors. Some laced some bare rims. But even that rims weren't that bad I had on stock lmx. And they cost 11 dollar only.
Can't imagine what those chewing gum rims cost if you buy 100 + of them.
....5 dollar?
It's not worth spending a single minute on lacing that shit.

3 inch tires are something like the sweet spot with surron rims. (plush ride vs added weight)
They hold pretty well with 220lbs rider doing Offroad stuff with some trialing-rocky-upstairs parts.
Buddy is riding 100/90/19 rear. Fat ass tire, crawls up anything but if we switch bikes he immediately feels the weight difference. Bikes feel more light... More playfull.

If you wanna plush and rim protecting as possible, check some sites back the 17x3.5 surron.

Good geometry, alot of rubber and only weight of the 3" version.

What's your favorite tire for on road/off road mix?

 

[Merlin]

I don't have. Iam riding all time mx tires because I hate the compromises Offroad.

On street they are slippery on corners but that's what I know before.
Yes they wear down fast (er) just they are soft and not for street use.
I ride alot of street too.

Best option would be a 2nd bike but too pricey for me and no space for a 2nd.

I have tested alot of tire types. But at the end its up to the rider which type of rider he is and where he's open to make compromise.

Those shinkos and equal brands like kenda, Cst or veerubber are good in mostly conditions.

241 trials I would say 50/50 street/Offroad.
Good on hard terrain. Street, rocks, normal Offroad stuff.

They suck on wet conditions (Offroad)
Muddy your totally out. Street wet is OK.
Just think about what these tires are made for... Trial stuff, no cornering needed.

244 shinkos I put them to 65/35 street/Offroad.
They are a bit heavier but not that much that you should make your decisions against them.

MX tires are
4-5/10 street... 3/10 wet street.... 9/10 Offroad, wet/muddy 10/10

Sr241/sr244
7/10 street.... 6/10 wet street..... 5/10 Offroad ,wet/muddy 2/10

244 will last longer than 241... They getting really loud after half of live time on street.

 

[Allex]

Nice summary Merlin!
Will add this to the first post.

 

[Rix]

Thanks. I went back and forth a while trying to decide on blue rims vs black.
It's tight. Like 1-2mm right now. I had more clearance w/ that tire on the OEM rim and I thought I set the dish of this wheel similar ( I had dished the OEM rear wheel too). I apparently didn't account for the wider rim stretching the tire out more. I'll need to add some more dish but I may move the chain too. See below.


SR241 3.50x19 measures ~103.4mm(4.07") from the very point of one knob across to the other. It is 4540g. It's a tall wheel - really shouldn't run it unless you have plans to put a taller one up front too.

Speaking of dish: The tire is ~18mm from the left side chainstay and ~22mm from the right. So I have only 2mm of dish on this wheel now. Hmm, I think I had 4-5mm on the stock wheel. Wonder if I mismeasured when I trued this one. Either way, there is 7.6mm from the chain pins to the right chainstay. I could easily machine spacers to move the chain rightward at both sprockets 2-3mm. I need to pull off the front sprocket cover to see if there is actually enough room to do that up there. That would allow me to keep minimal dish but for now I'll probably just dial in a couple more mm.

Damn, shinko specs say it's on 3.5 wide, but you're saying an extra half inch from their specs. Might be a bit to hefty. Wish they made this in a 19x3. Do you have any other recommendations for a tire similar to this but a bit narrower? Regarding chain placement, hmmm, not even sure about that.

I don't know how shinko is measuring their tires, but all of the one I had were wider than advertised. Its no surprise to me the SR241 3.5-19 is more like 4 " wide.

So do you feel that the 2.75's give you enough rim protection and suck up bumps off road?

Yes,I do. There is quite a bit difference between the 2.75 and 3.00 SR241, I wouldn't hesitate to run the 3.00 wide tire at 13 PSI with a rim lock, but I would not run the 2.75 below 20 PSI without a rim lock or 16PSI with a rim lock on the rocky shit I ride due to pinch flat concerns and damaging the rim.

 

[X-Nitro]

well thats good to hear, I dont have one yet but want to have trial tires on these silver rims. The 19 & 21" 2.75 are real floppy soft & not adequate for my rear tire.

 

[synics]

I don't have. Iam riding all time mx tires because I hate the compromises Offroad.

On street they are slippery on corners but that's what I know before.
Yes they wear down fast (er) just they are soft and not for street use.
I ride alot of street too.

Best option would be a 2nd bike but too pricey for me and no space for a 2nd.

I have tested alot of tire types. But at the end its up to the rider which type of rider he is and where he's open to make compromise.

Those shinkos and equal brands like kenda, Cst or veerubber are good in mostly conditions.

241 trials I would say 50/50 street/Offroad.
Good on hard terrain. Street, rocks, normal Offroad stuff.

They suck on wet conditions (Offroad)
Muddy your totally out. Street wet is OK.
Just think about what these tires are made for... Trial stuff, no cornering needed.

244 shinkos I put them to 65/35 street/Offroad.
They are a bit heavier but not that much that you should make your decisions against them.

MX tires are
4-5/10 street... 3/10 wet street.... 9/10 Offroad, wet/muddy 10/10

Sr241/sr244
7/10 street.... 6/10 wet street..... 5/10 Offroad ,wet/muddy 2/10

244 will last longer than 241... They getting really loud after half of live time on street.

Thanks for that great info! Thanks for compiling all that. I've read lots of bad reviews about the 244's, but most reviews on the 241's are positive. So what MX tires are you running? I've been hearing a lot of positive reviews about the Bridgestone Battlecross xt30s

 

[Offroader]

244's are heavy and have hard compound and don't flex. These are all season tires. Not great for a light weight sur-ron, the weight is not here to flex these tires. You could probably run those tires on a sur-ron with 0 psi air pressure (Joke).

241's work well in the 3" or higher size because they are very soft and much more flexible. 241's in 2.75" size don't work as well because they are on the stiffer side. I had a 2.75 on the rear of another bike and was blown away by how much better the 3" size was .

Again I will disclaim here that this all depends on what your riding condition surfaces are like. If its mud and sand you will have issues unless you get a more specialized tire. Personally, I am going to avoid any mud and just will not ride on it.

I only take my bike out in dry / nice conditions.

 

[synics]

244's are heavy and have hard compound and don't flex. These are all season tires. Not great for a light weight sur-ron, the weight is not here to flex these tires. You could probably run those tires on a sur-ron with 0 psi air pressure (Joke).

241's work well in the 3" or higher size because they are very soft and much more flexible. 241's in 2.75" size don't work as well because they are on the stiffer side. I had a 2.75 on the rear of another bike and was blown away by how much better the 3" size was .

Again I will disclaim here that this all depends on what your riding condition surfaces are like. If its mud and sand you will have issues unless you get a more specialized tire. Personally, I am going to avoid any mud and just will not ride on it.

I only take my bike out in dry / nice conditions.

So I assume that's a different story is the bike was a HUB with a QS273V3 motor on it. It would be the opposite right? : )

 

[Merlin]

Thanks for that great info! Thanks for compiling all that. I've read lots of bad reviews about the 244's, but most reviews on the 241's are positive. So what MX tires are you running? I've been hearing a lot of positive reviews about the Bridgestone Battlecross xt30s

lightest i found:

front: 21 inch 80/90 size. 1kg less weight as a 90/90 or 100/80 -21
rear: 3.5 / 18 inch. CST 755 very soft tire.

buddy is running 244 on his surron

i dont think we have the skills to outperform any mx tire with our "ebikes".
mostly limit is the rider =)
so if you wanna go MX tires, you can go with any you like. next tire i will try some hardtrack mx. pattern is more narrow vs mid or soft ones.

pic:

 

[Kauaiguy]

On Kauai we usually treated to mud and rain so only knobbies for me.I run the ProTrax 70/100-19,very good traction from mud to dry conditions and has a long life,even on pavement.Only run 12psi with a Talon 1.4 rim lock.Don't néed a wider tire as I get good traction with the 2.75 tire.I climb hills my ice trials buddy’s have a hard time making.

 

[JuiceMeUp]

I recently did the Moto Tyre experiment on the Surron.
I read all the posts and recommendations. Agonised over my choice and pulled the trigger.

First ride - "Fark this!"

The good:
The cornering grip was unbelievable. The bike was now a plough. Smash the chunkiest of terrain. magic carpet ride.

The not so good:
Heavy, slow steering pig. Range sapping. Power taxing. Send it a memo in advance if you wanted to go around a corner.

I've gone back to my own magic formula that is compromised in different ways that reflect my own riding tastes.

Hit me up if you want some cheap Moto Tyres <20Km

 

[Offroader]

lightest i found:

front: 21 inch 80/90 size. 1kg less weight as a 90/90 or 100/80 -21
rear: 3.5 / 18 inch. CST 755 very soft tire.

They make that CST 755 tire in 3.00 x 18" , which is exactly the same size as the front 19x2.75" tire.

What would you say the weight of this tire is? Is this tire soft like the shinko 241 3.00"?

Too bad they don't sell this in USA.

 

[smdub]

pic:

What hand/brush guards are you running there? I'm looking for some lightweight 100% plastic ones that are still full wrap (I don't need the aluminum bar on this bike.) I used to have some nice ones on an old Beta trials bike but can't remember the brand.

Edit: I think I see aluminum on those ends of those now and they look like the molded in bar ones. NVM.

 

[Offroader]

I finally got my new 24 fet nuclear controller hooked up and will need more time to fully give my opinion about this controller. This is supposedly the best and most recommended controller for this bike. It does give a lot more power, great display screen, and controlability to the bike even with using the stock battery, with one major flaw.

The controller is still a "work in progress", meaning it works well, but is still in development. It definitely is not a plug and play controller like the x-controller is. You have to really do a lot of reading/research and program it for your bike. You can upload other peoples controller settings so that could simplify things, but nobody really does this yet. It also just doesn't attach to the bike very easily, you will have to deal with mounting it and dealing with the phase and battery wires. Not that big of a deal but its not plug and play, I had to even zip tie the controller down at two locations.

The only reason I am not liking it is the throttle control. I don't know if any of you guys remembered when I was harping about how great it was switching to a thumb throttle on this bike and how much better control I had over the twist throttle. A thumb throttle gives you very precise control and there lies the problem with this controller for me.

The one thing so far I do not like about it is the throttle control. This is something that could hopefully be fixed in the future as it has to do with programming and a firm ware update could always fix the issues.

One thing you guys take for granted is how well the x-controller is programmed for this bike, it gives you very smooth and predictable control of the sur-ron. The throttle is programmed to give you very good control and the controller is tuned so the power flows smoothly.

My biggest issue is that the throttle on the nuclear controller is controlled by phase amps. Basically, it works by setting a max phase amp value in the controller. Assume you set the nuclear controller to 300 max phase amps as that is about the max you can use with the sur-ron battery. You also set the max battery amps, and that is set to 90 as that is about the max you can use on the sur-ron battery.

How the nuclear controller throttle program controls the bike is like this, you push the throttle down say 50% of the way, your controller will allow you to hit 150 phase amps. Push the throttle fully to 100% throttle it will allow 100% or 300 phase amps. So the throttle movement has a direct linear relationship with phase amps, from 0 to 300 phase amps.

This is where the issues lies and is a problem for me. The Sur-Ron uses maximum phase amps only at very low speeds, so when accelerating at 2 MPH you will use 300 phase amps. But when you are cruising above 15 MPH you will only use a max of about 150-100 phase amps.

What is happening is at any speeds above around 15 MPH, only about 25%-30% of my throttle controls the bike, because at 30% my controller is calling for 100 phase amps and that is enough to use my full 90 battery amps. I LOSE about 70% of my throttle range. My throttle is like an ON/OFF switch at cruising speeds. I have a lot of control of my bike because of the very small range of throttle movement to control my speed. So if I'm at full throttle doing 40 MPH, and want to reduce my speed, I have to reduce my throttle from 100% to below 25% just to reduce my speed a little bit. It is almost like my control at speed is ON/OFF.

The bike is still usable but just has awful throttle control, and this is because it is programmed this way . Think of it like driving a car and when you are driving you had to control the car with only 25% of the movement of the gas pedal. It leads to a very twitchy driving experience. What makes this actually worse for me is my halls thumb throttle ramps up in voltage from 1 volt to 2.3 volts in a very short distance so I really have only about 15% of my throttle movement to control my bike .


The only saving grace for you guys with the Sur-Ron twist throttle is that I found the Sur-Ron twist throttle was so bad in giving control of the bike that many of you guys may just go full throttle and then release the throttle fully anyway and may not be too bothered by this issue.

Its a very good controller but the lack of throttle control really kills it for me. I will have to do more experimenting with it and give more feeding on this controller.

 

[macribs]

That about the strangest controller review I ever read. You complain about mounting and wiring? Not plug n play? Have yo swapped controllers before? This is how it goes. It's no stress, it is the way it needs to be. One controller can not magically mount directly into all stock mounting holes on all bikes. Nor can it plug and lay into all stock wire harnesses.

But did you know that you can ship you new nuc controller back to vasili, along with the standard sur ron controller and he can take out everything on the inside of the nuc controller and mount it into the original sur ron controller housing? That should be as close to plug and play as you get. And you get the bonus of nobody but you know that you did a controller upgrade

You still on the thumb throttle? Well if it works I guess why not? I remember I thought when you first posted about the thumb throttle, this is just a phase. He will grow out of it. Guess I was wrong.

I haven't gotten my nuc yet so can't help you out with tuning the settings, the way others rave about this controller I am sure you can dial in everything you want and then some in the settings. You could ask if anyone have a "profile" to share or just dig into the menu and start playing around with the settings. Or maybe even better ask vasili in the nuc thread directly for help. I am 100% sure you will get this controller working to meet all of your needs and wants.

If you somehow does not like the more powerful controller you can always return to original controller and probably sell the nuc with profit, bet you people will pay at least double what you paid vasili just to get their hands on a nuc 24 quickly as there are still a waiting list for those. Or use the profit to put a smile on your face and order yourself a new one, and ask vasili to tune it for your motor and thumb throttle, your ramp up needs and send him the casing of a original sur ron controller to make install a breeze.

 

[Offroader]

I'm just letting people know that you will have to do some work to get this installed. It isn't a plug and play controller and for someone who is not experienced with doing this kind of work will have to do some work. That was just a heads up so you know what you are dealing with. Some people may not want to deal with a project here or worried about doing it properly. This wasn't an easy job by any means, it wasn't the hardest job either, but it will take you many hours and you will run into a few headaches along the way.

I realized my temp probe in my motor doesn't work . I have to now open up my damn motor and change that out.

Vasili does not do that service anymore where he puts the controller into a sur-ron controller, I already had a debate with him about that many months ago and he just doesn't have the time to do it as its too time consuming for him. You are also better off anyway from a performance standpoint of not doing that. By not using the sur-ron controller housing, you have better air flow on the controller and also on the sur-ron motor as it opens up an air gap to the motor. I'm happy to have those benefits.

I mentioned the tuning because you will have to mess with a lot of settings and many are hard to understand what they do if you are not technical in this field. I can't even figure out some of the settings. Just try and understand what this setting does, I have no idea what this means. I'm not saying you can't figure it out I'm just giving a heads up that it is on the complicated side and you will have to do a lot of research. This isn't plug and play like installing an x-controller. Take a look at this speed setting for example I tried to figure out to maybe help my throttle range.
For the throttle modes Speed and Speed+torque a speed reference filter is applied, for a smoother response to the throttle change.
The filter takes a difference between the previous speed request and the current one, multiplies the error to the power 1,2,3 (linear, quadratic, cubic respectively) and multiplies by the coefficient. The resulting value is used as the cutoff frequency of the low pass filter. The greater the change - the faster the response to it.


Again, you are leaving out the big issue. Why are you not commenting on the bad implementation of how the controller controls the throttle. WHy are you not taking a look at that it is controlled by phase amps only and how you lose all of your throttle range at higher speeds? Do you know that phase amps are very high when at low speeds but get very low at higher speeds.

These are serious issues here. You will basically have a throttle that controls the bike by only 25% of its travel, and even less in my case because of the voltage curve of my throttle which really ramps up.

I do a lot of technical stuff that requires very good throttle control, The nuclear controller does not give me this control and it leaves me with a very twitchy throttle, almost like I can either full throttle it or no throttle.

The X-Controller had very good throttle control, I never had an issue with it. There is no way you can fix this on the nuclear controller because you are stuck pretty much using the torque mode of throttle control.

 

[Rix]

I recently did the Moto Tyre experiment on the Surron.
I read all the posts and recommendations. Agonised over my choice and pulled the trigger.

First ride - "Fark this!"

The good:
The cornering grip was unbelievable. The bike was now a plough. Smash the chunkiest of terrain. magic carpet ride.

The not so good:
Heavy, slow steering pig. Range sapping. Power taxing. Send it a memo in advance if you wanted to go around a corner.

I've gone back to my own magic formula that is compromised in different ways that reflect my own riding tastes.

Hit me up if you want some cheap Moto Tyres <20Km

What tire did you try?

 

[Rix]

I'm just letting people know that you will have to do some work to get this installed. It isn't a plug and play controller and for someone who is not experienced with doing this kind of work will have to do some work. That was just a heads up so you know what you are dealing with. Some people may not want to deal with a project here or worried about doing it properly. This wasn't an easy job by any means, it wasn't the hardest job either, but it will take you many hours and you will run into a few headaches along the way.

I realized my temp probe in my motor doesn't work . I have to now open up my damn motor and change that out.

Vasili does not do that service anymore where he puts the controller into a sur-ron controller, I already had a debate with him about that many months ago and he just doesn't have the time to do it as its too time consuming for him. You are also better off anyway from a performance standpoint of not doing that. By not using the sur-ron controller housing, you have better air flow on the controller and also on the sur-ron motor as it opens up an air gap to the motor. I'm happy to have those benefits.

I mentioned the tuning because you will have to mess with a lot of settings and many are hard to understand what they do if you are not technical in this field. I can't even figure out some of the settings. Just try and understand what this setting does, I have no idea what this means. I'm not saying you can't figure it out I'm just giving a heads up that it is on the complicated side and you will have to do a lot of research. This isn't plug and play like installing an x-controller. Take a look at this speed setting for example I tried to figure out to maybe help my throttle range.
For the throttle modes Speed and Speed+torque a speed reference filter is applied, for a smoother response to the throttle change.
The filter takes a difference between the previous speed request and the current one, multiplies the error to the power 1,2,3 (linear, quadratic, cubic respectively) and multiplies by the coefficient. The resulting value is used as the cutoff frequency of the low pass filter. The greater the change - the faster the response to it.


Again, you are leaving out the big issue. Why are you not commenting on the bad implementation of how the controller controls the throttle. WHy are you not taking a look at that it is controlled by phase amps only and how you lose all of your throttle range at higher speeds? Do you know that phase amps are very high when at low speeds but get very low at higher speeds.

These are serious issues here. You will basically have a throttle that controls the bike by only 25% of its travel, and even less in my case because of the voltage curve of my throttle which really ramps up.

I do a lot of technical stuff that requires very good throttle control, The nuclear controller does not give me this control and it leaves me with a very twitchy throttle, almost like I can either full throttle it or no throttle.

The X-Controller had very good throttle control, I never had an issue with it. There is no way you can fix this on the nuclear controller because you are stuck pretty much using the torque mode of throttle control.

You need a slow action throttle cam assembly like this https://www.juddracing.com/products/throttle-tube-slow-action-kit-ktm-50sx-2012-20-husqvarna-tc50-2017-19-to-replace-1-4-turn-quick-action-throttle.html

 

[Ttwinsupra]

You guys will be happy to know the 2020 surron has an electric throttle and it actually feels really nice, spring loaded and everything. So probably much less problematic

 

[Tolkano]

Does anyone ride the sur-ron as supermoto on 16" wheels with some bigger tires?

 

[thoroughbred]

I would pay someone a $200 premium for a 24f now and also give you first right of refusal to the 24f I'm in line to receive from February order.

As for the throttle issue, my old Zero dirtbikes are like that, throttle does less and less the faster you go. Usually I don't need as much fine control at higher speeds offroad. I can see how it would be annoying trying to maintain a cruise speed with your thumb the whole time. I'll pay more attention riding with the X controller to compare...