Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

[JuiceMeUp]

You know that you have a disruptive player in the market when a product comes along that starts fracturing the e-bike community.

So far in these threads I've seen nervous vendors poo pooing it on the spec sheet.
Others stating the obvious, saying that it is an e-motorcycle, not an e-bike, implying that it has no business here.
Now, one guy hurling unfocused abuse.

So far, for it's price, its been fantastic as a recreational vehicle with a light environmental footprint. If it takes off, I understand why others are nervous.

As for absolute adherence to the rules (mentioned above). I know some people worship that principle. Others with a more developed sense of personal responsibility, know when to bend and break them. I imagine many people in this community fall into the latter class

Wrapping up this rant, I'm tipping that this bike is going down in the ES hall of fame (code named 'The Polarizer'). I just hope one of the journo's is taking note and preparing a story.

 

[Rix]

I'm tipping that this bike is going down in the ES hall of fame (code named 'The Polarizer')

Its because the price of admission is so low, relatively speaking, and thus far, with videos I have viewed, the performance is high.

 

[motomoto]

It should be in the motorcycle section. I didn't notice it was under the wrong heading until now.

It is a disrupter because of it's fun factor and value per money spent.

So far it's off the charts in my book. Best buy ever. I am just going to have years of fun because it is
so well designed and built. I have a second one coming so that I can play with my friends.

 

[macribs]

Here's a teaser vid I made while editing my full clip

That was plain evil. Just have us wait like that.

 

[madin88]

I dont know if it's the knobbies or the mid drive but it's something I noticed pretty quick.

Ironic Jay, I just sent you an email asking about the performance of this bike. It seems that these bikes bursting what..6kw appear to pull harder than your 9kw Fighter. Your Teaser appears to show this. What are your thoughts? Does it pull hard with less power input over a DD hubbie due to the mechanical advantage of the mid drive?

Unfortunately i don't own this bike, but my guess would be following:
No big unsprung mass in the rear will lead to a more comfortable riding, better traction and you will feel much more safe when riding WOT over rough terrrain.
If it pulls harder with less power input or not (versus DD hubbies like MXUS 3k or QSV3), could be easy calculated. You yust need to know how much of input power will be turned into heat at definied values of torque output on the rear wheel.
e.g:
50Nm 100W copper loss
100Nm 400W copper loss
and so on.. just an example!!

But someone of the owners needs to measure phase to pase resistance and kV of the Motor. Hyena?

 

[Hyena]

Re the power thing, actually the first thing I did when I had a second rider was drag race the surron against my alpha. Juicemeup came over and we went for a quick scoot on my alpha and the surron. The alpha is capable of much more of course but I turned it down to 5.99kw in the CA to make it a fair fight. I predicted from my 'bum dyno' that the hub motor actually had more torque, and when I lined up for a race with a rolling start from about 10km/hr the hub pulled about 3/4 of a length in front pretty much straight away, then held it until the surron started to run towards top speed, then the hub being a faster wind kept pulling further and further away. That was how it played out, right Luke ? What were your other thoughts on the 2 bikes before I turned it back up to 12+ kw ?

As stated the surron DOES feel better smashing around offroad - it has heavier duty suspension and with the moto wheels front and rear is also takes punishment more easily. Hub motor aside handling wise the surron also felt like it had an overall lower centre of gravity. When jumping back on the alpha I did notice how much higher up I felt perched.

Losses wise, I think it's close. Efficiency wise the mid drive is always spinning faster and then putting the power down via the belt drive reduction and then heavy chain final drive. In general riding I think they actually come out pretty square as the gained efficiency of the mid drive always spinning faster is offset by the reduction losses. Again though without measuring it exactly it's all theoretical. If I could be bothered cutting into the wires I'd be keen to see what sort of current it's actually pulling. Technically to call it 6kw it must be pulling 100A, and it DOES seem to chew through the 32ah battery, so I guess it adds up. My sabvoton powered hub definitely has more poke off the line at the same kw rating. I dont know it if has higher phase current but I suspect the surron has a protective slow start mechanism - either to preserve the drive line or to make it friendly on noobs. When you gun it it scoots off pretty respectably but it feels like it starts pulling harder once you're moving, which supports this. Swapping out the controller would quickly get to teh bottom of the issue, and I'm super keen to do this, but also super keen NOT to do it, because it's such a great little package as is. Everything being purpose build with neat flush fitting components and hidden wire routing, it feels like it'd be a shame to start hacking it. I might buy another one with the express purpose of making it a R&D beast and keep my current one in known good working order.

In the mean time I'm starting work on low key non-performance mods with a handlebar upgrade/rise. Ive swapped out the fairly low rise mtb bars and stem with a BMX stem and protaper MX bars and grips. On the cross brace I'll swap out the basic bicycle style headlight with a 6 LED light bar like I've used on some of my previous custom high end builds. That will give it some proper night time illumination for trail riding at night. I dont know if it has an internal DC-DC converter tucked away somewhere but the stock headlight is marked as being 12v, so it must. I'm not sure if it can handle the current of a higher powered led light bar, but we'll see. An aftermarket DC-DC converter would be easy enough to tuck away and keep it all neat if whatever it comes with isn't powerful enough.

 

[knoxie]

Great input from jay as usual, Bike from what I can see looks like it has an amazing price/performance vector not to mention it looks very well built and super stylish and modern looking too, it also doesnt have the bulk of the stealth bomber box frame type bikes either, so I wonder if anyone in the UK is interested in doing a group buy? so for the Aussie group buy what did you all pay per bike including shipping? im aware sur-ron only like to deal in qty orders.

 

[Volts]

how long you guys think the belt and chain is expected to last?

 

[knoxie]

How longs a piece of string? from what I have seen the chain is well capable, belts are a weak point esp when being used off road, I expect this to be a weak point in the transmission over time, esp when being hammered off road, its not a deal breaker for me though.

 

[Rix]

Here's a teaser vid I made while editing my full clip

That was plain evil. Just have us wait like that.

Yes it was plain evil. Kind of like offering a pizza without a beer.

 

[Rix]

Re the power thing, actually the first thing I did when I had a second rider was drag race the surron against my alpha. Juicemeup came over and we went for a quick scoot on my alpha and the surron. The alpha is capable of much more of course but I turned it down to 5.99kw in the CA to make it a fair fight. I predicted from my 'bum dyno' that the hub motor actually had more torque, and when I lined up for a race with a rolling start from about 10km/hr the hub pulled about 3/4 of a length in front pretty much straight away, then held it until the surron started to run towards top speed, then the hub being a faster wind kept pulling further and further away. That was how it played out, right Luke ?

As stated the surron DOES feel better smashing around offroad - it has heavier duty suspension and with the moto wheels front and rear is also takes punishment more easily. Hub motor aside handling wise the surron also felt like it had an overall lower centre of gravity. When jumping back on the alpha I did notice how much higher up I felt perched.

Excellent info Jay, I am surprised your Alpha was faster than the Surron given you had things turned down. I guess I thought it would be different because the Surron looked quick in your teaser vid. Maybe its time for an Alpha video.

 

[WoodlandHills]

I have no problems with this bike at all: if I lived on a ranch or had easy access to an OHV area, I would buy one. I DO have big problems with a pedal kit for an out and out MX bike electric or otherwise though........ Is there any other reason for pedals on this machine besides illegally riding where only Class 1 eMTBs are permitted? If it was meant to be a moped, wouldn't it have DOT legal turn signals and brake lights as well as fenders and street tires? If it is faster than 33mph it is not legally allowed on bike lanes or paved paths since would not be a Class 3 either, pedals or not.

Again the issue is not the motorcycle, it's the pedal kit.......

 

[macribs]

Some people will live their entire life by the book. Never color outside the lines. Other "free spirited" souls tend to have a more pragmatic way of life, meaning they might bend a few rules, or even break some but they try to go about their things without causing problems. I understand what you are saying, and a respect that. But I also see it from the hippie side as well. If the laws and regulations don't fit maybe the laws are wrong?

What I am saying is if you ghost pedal at sane speed down a bike lane or walk path and do so with care and slow down if you pass someone, ride without causing problems or putting the the fear of god into people most likely you will do fine as long as the bike got pedals. I agree it is not a bicycle, it is a e-motorcycle by looking at the motor output. But it can be ridden as a bicycle and if done just that I see no problems.

And I do think the law enforcement agents tend to look at it that way too. There are more urgent crimes to investigate. There are more serious criminals to catch.

 

[Hyena]

OK, here's the video you've all been waiting for - no more teasers, 5 minutes of full action
I'm regularly posting stuff on my hyena facebook page so follow along there for more vids and pics.

As I said in the disclaimer at the start, the motor sounds much louder in the frame mounted sections of the video, especially the rear facing shots where the camera is like 1" away from the motor. The side shots tell the story, there's a bit of electric whir but in the grand scheme of things it's pretty quiet. You can hear in alot of the shots it's barely louder than the sound of the tyres in the gravel and once it's about 20m away it's essentially silent.

[youtube]aN8bVe2v7Is[/youtube]

 

[WoodlandHills]

Some people will live their entire life by the book. Never color outside the lines. Other "free spirited" souls tend to have a more pragmatic way of life, meaning they might bend a few rules, or even break some but they try to go about their things without causing problems. I understand what you are saying, and a respect that. But I also see it from the hippie side as well. If the laws and regulations don't fit maybe the laws are wrong?

What I am saying is if you ghost pedal at sane speed down a bike lane or walk path and do so with care and slow down if you pass someone, ride without causing problems or putting the the fear of god into people most likely you will do fine as long as the bike got pedals. I agree it is not a bicycle, it is a e-motorcycle by looking at the motor output. But it can be ridden as a bicycle and if done just that I see no problems.

And I do think the law enforcement agents tend to look at it that way too. There are more urgent crimes to investigate. There are more serious criminals to catch.

You are dreaming if you think that other riders of REAL bicycles will not notice your motorcycle on their trails. And they are their trails: they belong there and you do not. If your intent is to have all electric bicycles banned from all bicycle trails and paths then go ahead and poach wherever you want.

No other riders will stop you, no others will harass you ON THE TRAIL. They will always avoid conflict and let you pass them by. They will also contact their local ranger, the local police, the local trail maintenance organization, the local MTB clubs and complain loud and long about you.

Are you even aware one tiny bit of just how controversial this specific eMXer is among MTB circles? Did you know that the main argument against allowing Class 1 ebikes onto bicycle trails is the fear of electric motorcycles with pedals sneaking onto trails where they do not belong? Did you know that the great bogeyman of off-road bicycling is a jerk just like you: the clown who rides his electric motorcycle on bike trails and ruins it for the rest of us.

 

[macribs]

You might be right, or the maybe the MTB community should focus on real issues rather then drawing up a bogey man that does not exist? Some people are so narrow minded. I wonder what those people are like at their job, in their family life and in life in general?

Are those the people that drop dead with a heart attack before turning 50 because they are always so stressed out by taking in all the problems of the world around them? Maybe they could have a better life if they focused on themselves and what they are doing and how they can help world become a better place, rather then trying to change each and every person around them?

Even if I was a MTB guy, a daily bicycle commuter or just an ordinary hipster with a cool fixie bike that look like it comes straight out of a 1950 magazine why should I care if other people use my paths as long as they do so with respect, without causing trouble? If the emotorcycle with pedals move the same speed as bicycles, don't make any noise or don't ride hooligan style why would that bother me? Maybe the bicycle riders day will be much better if they just enjoy their bicycle ride and let others enjoy their now matter how real their pedals are?

If you feel like protesting, maybe you should pick a worthy case? There are lots to pick and choose from, and they all need dedicated people who like to speak their mind about all the wrong doing in the world. And there are really worthy cases too. Look good and hard and you might find a place to call home.

 

[motomoto]

I rode a mountain bike, hiking, horse trail a couple of weeks ago. I chilled around other people to not
incite animosity towards an e-bike/motorcycle. We all need to do this.

 

[scrambler]

You might be right, or the maybe the MTB community should focus on real issues rather then drawing up a bogey man that does not exist? Some people are so narrow minded. I wonder what those people are like at their job, in their family life and in life in general?

Are those the people that drop dead with a heart attack before turning 50 because they are always so stressed out by taking in all the problems of the world around them? Maybe they could have a better life if they focused on themselves and what they are doing and how they can help world become a better place, rather then trying to change each and every person around them?

Even if I was a MTB guy, a daily bicycle commuter or just an ordinary hipster with a cool fixie bike that look like it comes straight out of a 1950 magazine why should I care if other people use my paths as long as they do so with respect, without causing trouble? If the emotorcycle with pedals move the same speed as bicycles, don't make any noise or don't ride hooligan style why would that bother me? Maybe the bicycle riders day will be much better if they just enjoy their bicycle ride and let others enjoy their now matter how real their pedals are?

If you feel like protesting, maybe you should pick a worthy case? There are lots to pick and choose from, and they all need dedicated people who like to speak their mind about all the wrong doing in the world. And there are really worthy cases too. Look good and hard and you might find a place to call home.

I am so with you on this!

I see all this as the result of the ongoing polarization of our society that has been at work and carefully crafted over the last decade(s), Making people feel you are either like them, or against them, and once they have decided that you are against them, they have the power of the internet at their disposal to shout their hate at your difference...

Common sense and open mindedness has left the building and been replaced by controversy. A sad time in our society if you ask me.

 

[Rix]

Some people are so narrow minded. I wonder what those people are like at their job, in their family life and in life in general?

Hey Mac, in my experience, the narrow minded types are narrow minded in all facets of his/her lives. Changing those folks is not impossible, but highly unlikely. The efforts of getting ebikes accepted should not be wasted on this group. The reality of ebikes is, unless there is a multi speed gear reduction transmission involved, any ebike pumping out 4 kw or less wont have enough power to brake traction on any terrain, except maybe sand, Ice, mud, or snow. But then again, a pedal power only MTB rider could technically brake traction on these types of surfaces as well. This one fact is what most anti E-Bikers don't understand. They got grand delusions of ebikes hitting a berm in the trail, getting on the throttle, and throwing a roost 20ft behind them as they accelerate out of the berm. And they don't know better because thats what they see on TV with MX racing. I have tossed around the idea of making some informational videos reflecting this fact, however, I believe the anti ebike types would just find something else to complain about.

 

[Rix]

Common sense and open mindedness has left the building and been replaced by controversy. A sad time in our society if you ask me.

The truth. My question is, how do the folks that get it fix it? Ebikes like the Sur-Ron should be allowed access to any off road trails and roads. I do alot of riding in NorCal and I couldn't ride the Sur-Ron anywhere there because it can't be pedaled. Problem is, to ride this bike off road, one from Nevada needs to acquire an out of state offroad permit to keep the California forest rangers happy. Last I checked, to get a permit, the machine needs a VIN number. Nevada has even more stringent requirements now. We have to register the machine as an "Off Road Only" vehicle through the Stat'es DMV. That needs a Vin. Dont confuse this with making the bike street legal, thats way more involved. With my ebikes that can be pedaled, none of these issues are an issue. Just stay off designated MTB trails. I guess the bottom line is, I like the Sur-Ron, but if I owned one, I would be very very limited to where I could ride it.

 

[Animalector]

Unless you're putting around at walking speed, the Sur on is going to rip up MTB trails. It doesnt have a place in a MTB park because it is not a MTB. People spend hours and hours dedicating their time to maintain these trails. There's plenty of places to ride the sur on and MTB parks is not one of them.

Pedelec ebikes on the other hand, like the Frey or other torque based ebikes by design don't rip up anything. I see no issues with these at MTB trails. It's just a matter of responsibility and respect.

Anyways I like the Sur On. I think it would be awesome. Up here on some of the forestry roads and fire trails through the mountains

 

[Hyena]

[youtube]Ip9tIwYd-8M[/youtube]

At the risk of leaning a little too far one way or the other, as above, it's all true. To a large extent you wouldn't ride this bike anywhere you wouldn't ride a normal dirt bike or pit bike. With the exception of the whole noise factor. In the vast areas of crown land around my neighborhood people occasionally ride dirt bikes, but it's frowned upon. You're not wrecking any fragile mtb trails, the neighbors just find the constants braaaap it a bit obnoxious and call the cops accordingly. On one of these though, ya ain't bothering them and if you're not tearing around blind corners risking collisions with people walking their dogs or whatever (I see peds every second outing and ride past them very slowly/sensibly) I can't see why anyone would complain.

But MTB trail wise, these WILL rip up the trails in short order. I've been riding my local fire trails now for a bit over a week and I don't know if I'm hooning more because the bike is new and I've been riding balls-out to test the limits, or it's just the mindset once you get on a dirt bike but I'm aware I'm chewing up the trails more than I do on my other ebikes. I found myself flicking the tail out alot the last few days, compressing the suspension coming into corners then shifting my weight to flick the tail around. I dont have to do this but it's something I can't do on a hub bike so it's a bit of a novelty. But I guess refer to the above, this is probably just me being a hoon :lol:
Even straight line accelerating I reckon these are chewing the trails more too. I'll make a video to compare with my hub powered alpha at the same power level. The surron tyres are more knobby so it could be that too.

 

[FlightService]

Dear macribs:

 

[Raisedeyebrows]

Hyena's video

Is the one Luna's offering the same exact specs?

 

[Alex Imreh]

Maybe a few e-bike builders could make a cooperative financing, to design and produce a frame similar with this, but for a speed pedalec with bicycle seat & pedals, 45km/h. 1# no more need of EU homologation, plates. 2# with an open arhitecture we could use "standard middrives" like BBSHD or Tongsheng and standard bicycle components. 3# 2-2.5kwh batteries + such engines + pedaling could be enough to make real offroad trails, over 100km, or road trips above 200km.

There are enough options. You can build up a Qulbix 76R with a BBSHD if you like, or buy that carbon bike with the torque sensing Bafang middrive from Luna.
The problem as already mentioned it will not be legal in most countries.
This bike from SurRon is a moped for replacing 50cc gassers in the future, and in terms of power and speed it even could be seen as a replacement for the 125cc gassers.
It's no pedelec.

The main reason to build something similar with pedals is to have longer range to do real trails. My first motorcycle, the one I used to learn biking was a Yamaha WR250F quite a few years ago 120kg weight. My target is to make trails i did with that gas enduro, to make over 100km offroad and with serious uphills, with electric bikes at half weight compared to modern gas enduros.
There will be never enough options, the game is just starting, there will be more and more hybrid models, somewhere between downhill bikes, light enduro motorcycles, speed pedalecs and so on. At present level of lithium technology the only way to make 100km offroad, or 200km onroad is with pedals, that is at a price level well under 5000euro.
The second reason for what I proposed is to compete against big business. This forum is not for consumers who go to shops to buy, this forum is first of all for ebike builders. Some will play make prototypes for own use but some will want to start a business, will want to start small production. For these bike builders I think there is only one way to compete against big business and that is cooperation not small talk.
Finally ebikes should be classified by engine power, and batteries should be always several times bigger than nominal power of engine, to sustain a ride of 3-4 hours at minimum. So i propose :
1# cooperation between a few ebike builders that could be interested in such a project, i have an offer from a designer, once there is a good design, production could be done in several countries, cooperation could be done at the level of components also. For example Stefan from Austria bought 100 Kelly controllers, he could sell to others such controllers at good price. I have stock with smart chargers, same as the ones used by LunaCycle and so on.
2# I propose a frame that can carry a battery of 2.5kwh, to be used with standard middrive engines like Bafang BBS or other engines like the one on the picture attached.

3# Others could use same frame with power hubs, we still have bits of a free world, let people talk about legality, noise, let MTBs complain about the imorality of enduro bikes, I will do what i want what i like, others will do same. If someone can use his "illegal" bike on trails, in the countryside, that is his own business in my opinion, same as love making in his own house.
4# But a big battery does not implies an illegal bike. If the engine is relatively small we will have a legal speed pedalec, NO NEED for EU homologation, no need for plate/insurrance, that will also mean a long range. Small bike builders can compete on this area, big companies will have an advantage when it comes to EU homologations.
All in all many reasons to make frames similar with the FireFly frame, to use similar batteries with smaller engines, pedals and bicycle seat. FireFly is nice, see this video and many others https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MndXfdKYKc. But the game is just beggining, there will be a golden age for ebikes, many more hybrid models to come and hopefully more and more builders will be able to start business, go to the next level of the game - ie small production. Cooperation could be the best way. If anyone interested pls PM.