TESLA to Plans to Build World’s Biggest Battery Factory!

[methods]

Skillz

-methods

Well, let's see. The 1st Industrial Revolution was 1750-1820, so there was more than halfway to 100 years, but rather than reverting afterward mankind continued forward. For the 2nd Industrial Revolution (1840-1870) John Ericson alone came up with the propeller, the powered elevator, the moveable turret.

After that, they stopped calling it a revolution when things advanced. I guess Jethro Tull didn't have a problem with being the only one building new things prior to the first Industrial Revolution. There's no sign that Steve Jobs minded coming more than 100 years after the second.

Dang, Ned Ludd, or Edward Ludlam if you prefer was fighting industrial civilization 150 years before that silly graph says there WAS industrial civilization. The Luddites themselves died out more than 100 years earlier. If that chart thinks it can account for energy production at a time when farmers were routinely making alcohol fuel and burning corn husks and other wastes for power that NOBODY tabulated, let alone all the wood cut to run steam engines. . . .

 

[methods]

I am not sure that failing to collect == giving away. :|


It is a promise not to collect future taxes on an endeavor that does not exist
Therefor - the people lose no money
Because they would have never collected it in the first place.

Annndddddd.... taxes pre-suppose profitability

I define profitability as PUTTING ELECTRIC CARS ON THE ROAD.

NOT

As putting money in the pockets of "investors"
Therefor - the point is moot.

-methods

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/nevada-tesla-gigafactory_n_5808818.html

It's official! The Gov. signed the tax bill. Wonder what it feels like giving away 1.3 billion $$ of the good peoples money.

 

[methods]

there are no schools that specialize in EVs or batteries. i tried to get methods to go back to grad school ...

Eh... there are a few.

If someone does not take me into their employ VERY SOON I am seriously considering going back and just working on a PhD until the path forward is clear for everyone.

I have never seen a reaction so obviously past the point of no return....
and I have done some pretty sketchy chemistry in my garage

Anyone still fighting the Electric Revolution is going to get left behind in a swirl of dust.

-methods

P.S. Ok... hydrogen holdouts... you guys can work in parallel. Thing is... Batteries and controllers and motors are Siiiiimmmmppppoo. We have been using stuff like this for a century. It works well... and the best part about it is that ... er... its like Transformers (the cartoon). Nearly every part of every EV can be re-purposed into other applications. TRUE sustainability.

 

[liveforphysics]

The path forward for cells isn't a pouch or can, both of those are vessels attempting to contain a fluid in a limited volume in a situation where micro-gassing is continuous. The safety difference between various types of lithium ion cells doesn't begin to change much until the anode ceases to have an SEI layer (like LTO). The SEI layer is the first thing to go in most types of situations that cause a hazardous event with a battery, no matter what the cathode mixture may happen to be.

The solution is solid electrolytes using no SEI layers and batteries made without the need for cell level interconnects, because without the limitations of the electrolyte voltage stress induced decomposition, you can make laminated flat stacks conducting through the Z-axis of the current collector foils, resulting in orders of magnitude lower conduction losses and heating in a battery. Anything less is nothing more than a temporary compromise to show people EV's can function.

Many solid electrolytes already are working, but at this moment the manufacturing processes/costs are outrageous. Fortunately, manufacturing processes can be solved, no matter how difficult they seem initially.

 

[speedmd]

there are no schools that specialize in EVs or batteries. i tried to get methods to go back to grad school ...

Eh... there are a few.

If someone does not take me into their employ VERY SOON I am seriously considering going back and just working on a PhD until the path forward is clear for everyone.

I have never seen a reaction so obviously past the point of no return....
and I have done some pretty sketchy chemistry in my garage

Anyone still fighting the Electric Revolution is going to get left behind in a swirl of dust.

-methods

P.S. Ok... hydrogen holdouts... you guys can work in parallel. Thing is... Batteries and controllers and motors are Siiiiimmmmppppoo. We have been using stuff like this for a century. It works well... and the best part about it is that ... er... its like Transformers (the cartoon). Nearly every part of every EV can be re-purposed into other applications. TRUE sustainability.

Lots of schools are building engineering departments around the topics. Centers in OH, MI, NY ,MA CA just to name a few are dedicating much resources to the topic. It fits in to work going on in the hydrogen side perfectly also. What else can excite young ones in so many areas of science than seeing something like the death bike go like a banshee down the quarter.

 

[methods]

The path forward for cells isn't a pouch or can, both of those are vessels attempting to contain a fluid in a limited volume in a situation where micro-gassing is continuous. The safety difference between various types of lithium ion cells doesn't begin to change much until the anode ceases to have an SEI layer (like LTO). The SEI layer is the first thing to go in most types of situations that cause a hazardous event with a battery, no matter what the cathode mixture may happen to be.

If they are not pouch or can then they are an idealistic solution that does not exist in the immediate or short term (possibly long term). I will believe it is a possibility when a proof of concept is delivered so funding can be secured.

As far as the second part of the above argument - it obfuscates the simple truth with lower level details.
The real goal is to create a battery system that can be abused... and still be safe and viable.
It was thought that the "BMS" could serve this purpose... but to date I have yet to see an implementation of a system that utilizes a BMS where the addition of the BMS does not LOWER the overall reliability of the product. BMS budgets and design emphasis (i.e. weight at the Systems Negotiation Level) will have to double or triple for them to work as desired.

A lead acid battery can be driven into the ground... then charged back up... and it is reasonably safe and "works".
For Lithium technology to be completely embraced it must have similar characteristics.

Case in Point:: NiCd memory issues hosed the Rechargeable Revolution for 2 decades.

The solution is solid electrolytes using no SEI layers and batteries made without the need for cell level interconnects, because without the limitations of the electrolyte voltage stress induced decomposition, you can make laminated flat stacks conducting through the Z-axis of the current collector foils, resulting in orders of magnitude lower conduction losses and heating in a battery. Anything less is nothing more than a temporary compromise to show people EV's can function.

Many solid electrolytes already are working, but at this moment the manufacturing processes/costs are outrageous. Fortunately, manufacturing processes can be solved, no matter how difficult they seem initially.

Yea - with enough money.

Sooo...... if we are going to debate (and be it known I swore off from arguing with Luke years ago)...

The question to debate is this:

If you take two cell technologies:
Say...
A LiPo Pouch (or XYZ non-LiFe Pouch) and a LiFePO4 Can

You take them both and abuse the shit out of them... (in all the ways we do)
When the test is done

1) Which has a higher probability of creating a hazardous situation?
2) Which retains a greater ability to be useful after abuse
3) Which one would be easier to "bin" for reuse?

Those are the kind of things I am thinking about
We will see after I do some testing.
To date... 99% of my testing has been with pouches.

Annnndddd.... those shit Emoli cells you encouraged me to explore. :x

-methods

 

[Arlo1]

Methods. If the range of the liFeP04 is shorter you will need to recharge more times increasing the chance of something bad so in the big picture is it really any safer??

 

[LockH]

OH! Tesla in the news! Again. Sort of. Begins about at 35 into YT vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G396JRzv0Pw
[youtube]G396JRzv0Pw[/youtube]

 

[methods]

Methods. If the range of the liFeP04 is shorter you will need to recharge more times increasing the chance of something bad so in the big picture is it really any safer??

The safety argument is always a black hole. I may bring up the subject but I never get cornered into that pidgin hole.

A better argument is the general argument: Mechanical Qualification

1) The transfer function of a "can" battery can be quantified. An A123 "can" can be put through environmental testing so that it alone can be qualified to survive a given environment. Then... once the "can" is put into the next level system the transfer function into the can - can be estimated - then directly measured. Once we know a can's transfer function... everyone's life gets better.

2) A pouch cell can not be qualified (effectively) as a piece part and is therefor less..... available.... for use in design. In order to qualify a pouch cell one must qualify it in its intended configuration... and any qualification data gleaned there will not necessarily be useful to others... and any time you want to do even the slightest system configuration change you have to re-qualify your design. (this is serious shit... Think tens of millions)

3) The WIN WIN is to avoid compartmentalizing and intellectualizing technology in such a way as to impede others (racing). The win... is to work together toward the general solution....

Sorta like... "Universally Preferable Behavior"
Or... "Self Evident Truth"

Back to the top:

Why would you assume that the "range is shorter" for a LiFePO4?
We simply need to accommodate more volume or more weight and the charging cycle will remain constant.

-methods

 

[Arlo1]

Because with something on 2 wheels volume and weight is limited. And that might meen more cells in parallel to manage which increases risk.

 

[methods]

OH! Tesla in the news! Again. Sort of. Begins about at 35 into YT vid:

I listened to it for 5min from 35 to 40
Seen a lot of videos like it.
May watch the whole thing if I find a bundle of cash on the side of the road and some free time

I think of it as a distraction.

What we are looking for is a CRITICAL MASS

Example: On any given day in Santa Cruz county I see between 3-5 Model S Tesla's. A few are local... but many are "different" and driven in from folks in Silicon Valley. On a given day... (say yesterday) I also saw:

1) Electric BMW
1) Smart Car (with plug graphics... not sure if electric)
40 - 100) Prius
3-10) Chevy Volt
3+) Electric "bike" type vehicles
etc

Thats... daily.

That (for our small town) is starting to creep up on being a critical mass.... and the reaction will start.
All we have to do is keep building them, keep buying them, keep driving them, keep talking about them, keep fixing them, keep... thinking about the entire life cycle of them....

And

The "Power Problem" will solve itself.

I can think of at least 35 ways to get around the power generation (non)issue.

NOW

As Justin pointed out the other day... This place I live is not representative of the rest of the US (thinking only of the US in this case). In most other places in the US you would be lucky to see a Prius... let alone 100 of them. The way I see that -> Is that we are leading... because we have CASH. In order to get the rest of the country on board with us we need an affordable electric... and that comes back around to what we are talking about in this thread.

The Peoples Wagon right?
(Just because an insane asshole once pushed for a Peoples Wagon does not mean the problem was with the Car...)

The affordable vehicle for the win.

-methods

 

[\/ampa]

Methods wants a bulletproof no BMS needing battery cell.
LFP wants a cell without fire hazard.

And i want a 600w/kg battery cell with the guarantee from the producer to recycle any component from it for free.
Doesn't matter if they need a BMS or turn into fireballs if handled wrong.

 

[liveforphysics]

The path forward for cells isn't a pouch or can, both of those are vessels attempting to contain a fluid in a limited volume in a situation where micro-gassing is continuous. The safety difference between various types of lithium ion cells doesn't begin to change much until the anode ceases to have an SEI layer (like LTO). The SEI layer is the first thing to go in most types of situations that cause a hazardous event with a battery, no matter what the cathode mixture may happen to be.

If they are not pouch or can then they are an idealistic solution that does not exist in the immediate or short term (possibly long term). I will believe it is a possibility when a proof of concept is delivered so funding can be secured. The existence of a working proof of concept can inherently not precede something being a possibility. That mindset is a reason why folks predominately use ICE for daily transportation needs.

As far as the second part of the above argument - it obfuscates the simple truth with lower level details.
The real goal is to create a battery system that can be abused... and still be safe and viable. Absolutely. Contrary to the BS delivered by marketing teams, Lithium iron hasn't proven to be that in real-world safety testing. This is because no matter how stable the cathode material, if the anode still has gnarly thermal decomposition when the cell is poked or overcharged (as seen with A123 cells etc), it still isn't at the level of safety needed.
It was thought that the "BMS" could serve this purpose... but to date I have yet to see an implementation of a system that utilizes a BMS where the addition of the BMS does not LOWER the overall reliability of the product. Agreed, no BMS can reduce safety risks at intrinsic cell-level hazard levels. The best they can do is disable a battery from being used that has an issue before it becomes a safety concern. BMS budgets and design emphasis (i.e. weight at the Systems Negotiation Level) will have to double or triple for them to work as desired. No amount of BMS budget makes the cells themselves safer, and further I don't know that at any level it can offer a safer function than simply shutting down a pack with an issue from being used. No amount of balance current shuttling corrects an issue with a cell that has abnormal internal self-discharge or corrosion etc.

A lead acid battery can be driven into the ground... then charged back up... and it is reasonably safe and "works". Lead acid has caused some of the most spectacular battery explosions on this forum and in industry. Does not typically cause fires, just nasty explosions when abused in the right/wrong application. They also decay drastically when over-discharged contrary to popular belief. They are in a state of failure by design from the moment the plates are wetted with electrolyte.
For Lithium technology to be completely embraced it must have similar characteristics. I would say it already has superior characteristics in all respects (including safety and durability), including cost over the life of the vehicle (if we're talking about EV batteries).

Case in Point:: NiCd memory issues hosed the Rechargeable Revolution for 2 decades. IMHO, what hosed the revolution was people choosing to take the attitude of not creatively pushing to create superior battery options. The state of the art of today batteries were entirely possible to have in the 1960's or maybe sooner. Had development efforts been directed towards safe and higher energy density batteries as a priority above what efforts and resources were directed towards technology of mass-murder and people settling for getting by with what already was proven in batteries. The act of settling and making-do is the moment your progress ceases, or at best becomes incremental and therefore not paradigm shifting.

The solution is solid electrolytes using no SEI layers and batteries made without the need for cell level interconnects, because without the limitations of the electrolyte voltage stress induced decomposition, you can make laminated flat stacks conducting through the Z-axis of the current collector foils, resulting in orders of magnitude lower conduction losses and heating in a battery. Anything less is nothing more than a temporary compromise to show people EV's can function.

Many solid electrolytes already are working, but at this moment the manufacturing processes/costs are outrageous. Fortunately, manufacturing processes can be solved, no matter how difficult they seem initially.

Yea - with enough money. Or, no money and a single inspired genius. I believe huge money is what generates the minimally creative incremental steps. The real breakthroughs often come out of some impoverished tinkerers basement.

Sooo...... if we are going to debate (and be it known I swore off from arguing with Luke years ago)... A wise decision if you make the illusion of 'winning' something your goal criteria, but one that misses both the benefits and joys of exchanging constructive thoughts. In my own life experience, it seems everytime honest discourse and disagreement occurs, there is an opportunity for all involved to walk away wiser than had they not participated.

The question to debate is this:

If you take two cell technologies:
Say...
A LiPo Pouch (or XYZ non-LiFe Pouch) and a LiFePO4 Can I know you know this, but just to be clear for others, what is in a modern can or pouch cell is the same active material guts, one is rolled up and stuffed in a can while the other is laminated into a foil pouch.

You take them both and abuse the shit out of them... (in all the ways we do)
When the test is done

1) Which has a higher probability of creating a hazardous situation? The can is a pressure vessel that bursts at a potentially dangerous to humans pressure and associated shrapnel velocities etc. The failure of a pouch cell to be capable of containing high pressures is an inherent safety feature against it becoming a pressure vessel (and if the vent on a can is done right, this is true for can's as well).
2) Which retains a greater ability to be useful after abuse Depending on the type of abuse (over-discharge, over-charge, extreme over-temperature etc), the right answer would be to retire either of them from further use. My hunch is that the can would stay low impedance longer during abuse than a pouch cell that wasn't clamped and constrained effectively. That's because the can physically prevents the foil layers from separating and developing space from each other that prevents that active material from being usable.
3) Which one would be easier to "bin" for reuse? If your primary concern is safety, then neither. If your primary concern is a garage project that gets baby-sat by some uncommonly knowledgeable and prudent DIY EV battery nerd with elaborate monitoring (I say monitoring only, because substantial corrective action like significant balancing is just inviting unsafe conditions), than I would say the best type of reuse is the type that indivdual has the most expertise in safely using. Can's don't show you when they are 'puffed'. You can bin it from a capacity and Ri value, and think it's good to go into a pack while it's 1psi away from exploding or venting, a pouch cell gives you a visual indication of pressure. The downside with re-using pouch cells is that handling them with human hands you are damaging them, and in many situations it becomes impossible to extract them from a pack without causing damage, even if being extremely careful.

Those are the kind of things I am thinking about
We will see after I do some testing.
To date... 99% of my testing has been with pouches.

Annnndddd.... those shit Emoli cells you encouraged me to explore. :x Cells and battery topology are on a steep development curve. If you ever try using an original iPhone or HTC G1 you will wonder what anyone saw in them at the time of release, and yet without that release we wouldn't have the Note 4 Edge to enjoy today. All technology has the same fate, to become irrelevant.

-methods

I love you buddy. I gave you the best insight I can offer from my life experiences, and I look forward to your fun testing.

 

[Joseph C.]

I am not sure that failing to collect == giving away. :|


It is a promise not to collect future taxes on an endeavor that does not exist
Therefor - the people lose no money
Because they would have never collected it in the first place.

Annndddddd.... taxes pre-suppose profitability

I define profitability as PUTTING ELECTRIC CARS ON THE ROAD.

NOT

As putting money in the pockets of "investors"
Therefor - the point is moot.

-methods

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/nevada-tesla-gigafactory_n_5808818.html

It's official! The Gov. signed the tax bill. Wonder what it feels like giving away 1.3 billion $$ of the good peoples money.

It's bizarre that you can be taxed on a component (battery) that you produce despite the fact that it is not being sold. You then transfer that component to the your finished product (the car) which is actually being sold.

Effectively, Tesla could have been taxed twice on the same component in the same country. A large portion of those tax credits concern taxing batteries which shouldn't be taxed in the first place seeing as no money is changing hands.

 

[Dauntless]

What a day for this thread.

Effectively, Tesla could have been taxed twice on the same component in the same country.

No. They get a resell permit and don't pay tax on the purchase. If there's an excise tax that's paid on the import, maybe it's allowed to be deferred to the sale of the car.

I would rather states not fight each other so hard for a few jobs. For companies that move jobs overseas, It is a simple solution that no politician wants to address.

As for rathers, I'd rather it wasn't necessary. Since it is, there's nothing to be said at the moment.

It is a promise not to collect future taxes on an endeavor that does not exist
Therefore - the people lose no money
Because they would have never collected it in the first place.

There's also loan guarantees on some deals the government then takes a hit on. Fisker was for over $500 million - was there a final tally on what the government paid off? The employees paid how much in taxes before the company goes under? MAYBE it balances out.

Skillz

-methods

Not sure what that meant, I'm hoping it means you like what I wrote.

there are no schools that specialize in EVs or batteries.

Eh... there are a few.

-methods

I'm not sure the literal specializing is necessary. You get a car like the Teslas, the Volt, they're beyond the body of knowledge the schools could have available to teach. I should think the traditional education could make do.

Chaffee Community College has an electric motor program. You get an AA degree or a certificate. Perhaps you take that on the way to a degree in Electrical Engineering.

If you complete the Calculus track at community college you're eligible for the engineering physics. There's like 4 levels for physics. 1 is general ed. and might be 101, 2 is General Physics for science majors and possibly 150, etc. The 2A is all the physics majors need, the 2B is for other majors. Don't know what 3 is about, but 4ABC is Engineering Physics. You move on to a 4 year school to study Chemistry, etc. Batteries would be what? Material engineering?

There's probably a lot of auto shop programs at community colleges starting to offer electric car classes. Cerritos Community College has the first semester on pure electrics and the second on hybrids. There's much that's still the same as traditional automotive: Brakes, body and frame, etc.

Now that is the part of the education equation that brings thousands at a time to entry level. And thousands of such people are needed, these cars are going to have to be fixed, etc. I don't think we're even making use of our full capacity for that in the U.S. at this time. Class offerings at California Community Colleges are still down some 20% from the bad economy, there's more than enough students willing to fill more classes. As for a few graduate students studying the really arcane arts of new things, sure that's a good thing, but that's still just the 1% inspiration.

Kraft durch Freude (German for Strength through Joy, abbreviated KdF

The Peoples Wagon right?

The affordable vehicle for the win.

-methods

Oh yeah, that was the Conestoga. The BIG wagon/SUV that settled America. It was transportation that won the west, not 6 guns. At the same time the Afrikaners were doing just fine with the Bollux cart, as they are even testing satellites with in India. It doesn't have to be the best thing, it has to be ACCESSIBLE.

(The proper name for what we came to know as the VW Beetle was the 'Strength thru Joy' car. "Peoples Car" was synonymous with "Econobox" and a good many German cars were called that. "Volkswagen" appeared in ads for many makes for years before the Strength thru Joy car had been presented to the public.)

 

[speedmd]

From the Huff post article

"sales tax exemptions for 20 years, a perk estimated at $725 million. In addition, the company would save more than an estimated $300 million in payroll and other taxes through 2024.
phasing out and eliminating 1970s-era tax credits for insurance companies, which backers said would free up about $125 million over five years beginning in 2016 for transferable tax credits to Tesla. The package would also gut a pilot program approved just last year giving tax credits to the film industry, freeing up about $70 million for Tesla. Another provision will require at least half of all workers hired by Tesla be Nevada residents, though it allows for waivers.

Not all bad, the screwed hollywood and the insurance robber barons all in the same bill. Good Idea to set up residency before applying.

 

[Dauntless]

Hollywood got such a big bequest From California that Nevada probably thought theirs wouldn't do them any good. Other states are cutting down on theirs or ending them altogether.

I don't think filmmaking will bring the kind of money the Gigafactory will.

 

[Hillhater]

.
I don't think filmmaking will bring the kind of money the Gigafactory will.

.?? annual revenue from the N American film industry is reported to be over $30 bn ..!

 

[speedmd]

.
I don't think filmmaking will bring the kind of money the Gigafactory will.

.?? annual revenue from the N American film industry is reported to be over $30 bn ..!

My exact point. States should not be trying to rob existing jobs with taxpayer money from other states. Just a race to the bottom this way. They should, try and develop new technologies and industries that can take advantage of the technology and the work force they develop foremost. The industry of ENERGY STORAGE will be the focus, not random / temporary jobs to keep folks from starving.

 

[dnmun]

the state of nevada has a legitimate interest in providing incentives to bring the plant to McCarron. it provides jobs and those people will pay taxes to the state. it will stimulate other companies who provide services to the plant or associated businesses and those all provide jobs that will provide income taxes to the state.

expect the county there in nevada to do even more in terms of property tax abatement on the capital equipment also.

eventually it will become almost impossible for businesses to locate to california as the drout intensifies over the next decade or two. it has just started.

 

[speedmd]

Yes, agree, create new jobs. That should be the focus. Agree, also that California needs some serious efforts toward desalinization technology or figure other ways of storing water to keep them from drying up into a vast desert. Always wondered if bringing in pacific waters through some man made canals, deep inland to some of the low lying dried up slat flats would help. It should at least help put some moisture into the local atmosphere and possibly help induce some rain. Interesting challenge.

 

[The fingers]

I wonder if they'll have battery-powered slot machines in the employee breakroom. :lol:

 

[dnmun]

i noticed that the artistic interpretation of the plant has the ENTIRE roof covered with solar panels. solves two problems at once.

reducing solar heating of the building by putting it in the shade, and adding power to run some of the equipment or lighting inside, led lighting?

this will not be like a research facility imo. it will be a straight production oriented facility so most of the jobs will be for technicians and operators to run the equipment and i expect the number of workers needed will be small for the size of the plant also so the building may not need extensive cooling systems which would reduce the power requirements somewhat.

 

[Dauntless]

.
I don't think filmmaking will bring the kind of money the Gigafactory will.

.?? annual revenue from the N American film industry is reported to be over $30 bn ..!

Are you serious? A state can hope to get what? 1% of production? That's not 1% of $30 billion, that's 1% of what can be peeled off by a state from production budgets. Plus the Gigafactory is permanent. You gotta sell each production on coming to your state, then they stay a few months. They develop no infrastructure, etc. (A visiting film company won't put up such solar panels, Hollywood greenies or no.) There's just no comparison.

California's new tax breaks are not going to break even for Hollywood, it was a symbolic obligation they were conceding. When the set builders and prop makers go to the hardware store, when the costumer buys off the rack clothing or material from the fabric store, the prices have gone up nearly 10% because of the hike in minimum wage. Just as when I go to Yoshinoya (LESS than I used to) it's gone from $4.79 to $5.17. They're going to hike it again right away. That fool Garcetti is REALLY planning a corrosive hike within the city of L.A. They're not going to bring the production back to California, they're just play acting. What already wasn't leaving will see some of the sting taken out of the higher prices and that's it.

the state of nevada has a legitimate interest in providing incentives to bring the plant to McCarron. it provides jobs and those people will pay taxes to the state.

And as Methods said, tax breaks actually cost NOTHING, because they weren't going to collect them anyway. They come out ahead collecting the reduced taxes. Capitalism at work.

eventually it will become almost impossible for businesses to locate to california as the drout intensifies over the next decade or two. it has just started.

"Eventually?" Just go ahead and say "For some time now. . . ."

Always wondered if bringing in pacific waters through some man made canals, deep inland to some of the low lying dried up slat flats would help. It should at least help put some moisture into the local atmosphere and possibly help induce some rain. Interesting challenge.

Don't know serious this is, but that's a plan for saving the Salton Sea. They need to dredge the sources of it so the water can run in, but they don't. Meanwhile there's the idea of a pipeline or canal to carry water there and to keep desalinating it to provide inland water. Also to use the salt. This is not far from Death Valley, the surface (At some point was) 226 feet below sea level. The salination is already higher than the Pacific Ocean and it grows 1% annually, another reason it's dying.

The Salton Sea is, throughout history, temporary. It was known as 'The Valley of the Ancient Lake' when the railroad company almost built a line through it. They did build some sort of stockyard there, as well as their being an indian community living there. Then came the flooding of 1905. The Salton Sea returned. And it may leave again, at any time.

Doubt anything will get done in this state with a government that petulantly drives up the cost of everything just so they can collect more taxes on it. Never figuring out that's what's driving DOWN their tax revenues so mysteriously.

 

[dnmun]

didn't your mother tell you that if you don't have something useful to say just say nothing at all? why don't yu just start your own thread of malaprops in case someone is interested.