Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

[Kepler]

Had the opportunity to ride another e-motion bike today at an EV expo. Got to say, the bike continues to impress. Some might be aware of the carbon frame Super commuter I built after my original test ride of a Jumper. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47139 and i was keen to compare it to the e-motion. My bike runs a torque sensor and 750W. The e-motion torque sensor is so nice and responsive. Also the power of the e-motion feels more like my 750W then 250W. Shame about the 25 kph speed limiter.

Anyone who has bought one of these bikes should be well pleased with their purchase.

 

[Farfle]

We just got two of these in stock at the bike shop, actually, a pair of neos (hardtail) and the neo carbon. As well as a jumper.

 

[ecowheelz]

We've been carrying the Neo's (US-versions) for the last few months... and these bikes have been selling like crazy! Just to clarify the motor confusion, BH switched from the Bafang to Dupu a few months ago - at least on the US-bikes. We only had one bike with the Bafang (which sold quickly), so we didn't get to do a lot of side-by-side comparison, but the Dapu motors are noticably quieter and slightly smaller in size. As far as we could tell, the power output on both 350W motors felt the same. Our rep at BH said they switched to Dapu because of the reduced noise and claimed that they're much higher quality...

 

[Mazza]

We've been carrying the Neo's (US-versions) for the last few months... and these bikes have been selling like crazy! Just to clarify the motor confusion, BH switched from the Bafang to Dupu a few months ago - at least on the US-bikes. We only had one bike with the Bafang (which sold quickly), so we didn't get to do a lot of side-by-side comparison, but the Dapu motors are noticably quieter and slightly smaller in size. As far as we could tell, the power output on both 350W motors felt the same. Our rep at BH said they switched to Dapu because of the reduced noise and claimed that they're much higher quality...

Jeremy - are you able to supply controllers for the US-spec version? They're 350w (vs our 250w - assuming it is restricted by controller) so should offer a bit more grunt, even though they are still speed limited (or are they not speed limited on the US spec?)

 

[LTZ470]

I would like to purchase the 48v battery and give it a try on the Neo Jumper...whats the worst case scenario damage? and how can I avoid the damage, like, would it damage it as soon as the battery locks in place? or would it take a ride and over volting/overheating to sustain damage?

If I have some idea then I can have replacement components ready if I do sustain damage...

 

[spinningmagnets]

Dapu motor links (Japanese?)
http://www.topsecretev.com/blog.php?categories=Taipei Cycle show 2012 highlights

 

[LTZ470]

So that is the same as this one on the Neo Jumper, and they actually say it can be over clocked. So the 48V battery while the motor could handle it albeit at loss of longevity, the electronics would be the challenge?
http://www.electricbike.com/easy-motion-jumper

 

[LTZ470]

EASY MOTION SPEED ISSUES
There are absolutely no wires going to and from the front wheel so that can have nothing to do with speed control. There are no magnets on the spokes that I can see, so I think the speed controll data is sent from the motor that is revolving at the same rate as the wheel. That means the controllers are specific for the wheel size. So my Neo Jumper has a controller that is set specifically for a 26inch wheel, probably by some sort of firmware?
The LCD is a generic device that is used on the range of bikes regardless of whel diameter, which is whynit has a wheel size changing function. makes sense and keeps the cost down.

I agree with you, the LCD just gets the RPM of the rear wheel and calculate the speed (but mine is 11%-12% of when I have the right size wheel put into my LCD). So the controller should be programmed for the wheel size. Anyone have friends or some possibility to try a Jumper controller on a Neo Cross?
But even better would be if it was possible to reprogram the controller, could it be possible to do that with the Blue Tooth adapter and the right software? If there are anyone really good at software would it then be possible to look at the BH Smartphone app and see if that leads any where?

Marci could he owns both a Cross and a Jumper...Marci?

 

[marci]

Hi Cole,

No, I have only a European Neo Cross with PAS. (Max 25km/h) But if it possible to Test Something without Special Equipment I will try Something

BTW: my drive Unit is Labeled with a 28" Button. But: If I Checked the Speed with a additional GPS, the BH Display Shows 5 Kilometers faster. So I Set the BH display from Default 28" size to 26 size". Now the km Display is right... But the Bike is Not slower or faster. So i think, Speed is Controlled Not Depending on Display...

 

[LTZ470]

Hi Cole,

No, I have only a European Neo Cross with PAS. (Max 25km/h) But if it possible to Test Something without Special Equipment I will try Something

BTW: my drive Unit is Labeled with a 28" Button. But: If I Checked the Speed with a additional GPS, the BH Display Shows 5 Kilometers faster. So I Set the BH display from Default 28" size to 26 size". Now the km Display is right... But the Bike is Not slower or faster. So i think, Speed is Controlled Not Depending on Display...

Sorry Marci, I thought you had both...thanks for chiming in...

 

[t3sla]

''closed loop speed control'' is most likely used to govern the units maximum speed through a V/rpm measurement.

Most manufactures solder in the bypass limit, some use a resistor 'pot' other a simple single pin connector and both of these are highly unlikely to be present.

Given the v/rpm scale is static you can swap out to a different wind motor or crack one open yet and get ye reverse engineering on.

 

[Mazza]

Sounds interesting t3sla. Any more info on this for those of us less electronically versed? (pics are always good! )

 

[PontusBC]

Hi Cole,

No, I have only a European Neo Cross with PAS. (Max 25km/h) But if it possible to Test Something without Special Equipment I will try Something

BTW: my drive Unit is Labeled with a 28" Button. But: If I Checked the Speed with a additional GPS, the BH Display Shows 5 Kilometers faster. So I Set the BH display from Default 28" size to 26 size". Now the km Display is right... But the Bike is Not slower or faster. So i think, Speed is Controlled Not Depending on Display...

Hi, my Cross is the other way around. My wheel is 2140mm long on one turn with me sitting on it. The LCD states 2150mm for 27" wheel and if I set the LCD to 27" I get the following results:
LCD shows 9300m long ride
My car shows 10400m long ride
Strava on HTC gps shows 10300 long ride

So the real ride length is more then 10% up then what the LCD shows and therefor the real speed should be 10% more then what the LCD shows. With 27" set to the LCD my speed limit comes around 27-28 kph which should be about 30 kph in real speed.
But a more worrying thing is why can't my bike count the revs. of the wheel correct? I can't see anything else make the LCD count wrong for the ride length.

 

[Melbourne]

''closed loop speed control'' is most likely used to govern the units maximum speed through a V/rpm measurement.

Most manufactures solder in the bypass limit, some use a resistor 'pot' other a simple single pin connector and both of these are highly unlikely to be present.

Given the v/rpm scale is static you can swap out to a different wind motor or crack one open yet and get ye reverse engineering on.

I am happy to volunteer my Neo Xtrem for some reverse engineering... but the pcb is encased in resin... may be next ebike meet at altona?

 

[PontusBC]

I am happy to volunteer my Neo Xtrem for some reverse engineering... but the pcb is encased in resin... may be next ebike meet at altona?

Is this the same controller in the end of this
http://murobbs.plaza.fi/elektroniikka-ja-hw-modifiointi/575027-sahkopolkupyora-78.html

The resin seems to be easy to remove with a small tool. Then if it is the same it should be possible to connect P21 to ground... Please try I'm very curious.

 

[mr2600]

Hi All,

Great thread, thanks to all the different contributors! All so helpful! I have been wanting to make the plunge and get an e-bike but there a few things still holding me back – I would greatly appreciate thoughts and input.

I have test ridden the BH Cross and BH Carbon (the carbon looks sexy!) – both rode well – very balanced. In comparison to other e-bikes i have tested they really have the best fit, finish and feel! I have my concerns though (similar to Kepler) – the power restriction really is a pain – once you reach 28kph – anything extra really becomes difficult – you really notice the 21kgs! Its not easy to get much more speed. The bike is just to heavy!

I am also not sure about the rear hub motor – all the rage now is mid-drive and I know this September is the big bike show – so I wonder what may be revealed by BH and other competing brands. I have researched various kits (500w-750w) so you can get a higher top speed...problem is – I wouldn't ride 30kph on something I have built

I travel to the states a lot too – and tempted by the Stromer St1 (same price as the carbon $3400) and that has a 30mph speed. Maybe I can bring one over.

I could really use some guidance

 

[d8veh]

Don't believe all the hype about mid-drives. Every system has advantages and disadvantages, which in the end make them equal; however, for whatever reason, some people seem to prefer one system over another. You should try them to see which you prefer. If you're a regular sporting cyclist, you're more likely to find a centre-drive better.

 

[zimbakin]

Has anyone had success in bypassing the speed limiter on BH Neo?
Two months on since last post, interested to see if there's been any breakthroughs.

 

[Mazza]

My only bypass so far has been to pedal really hard.

In all honesty though, I'm still keen to know if there's a way to do this (preferably a way that can be reversed relatively easily if required! )

 

[d8veh]

We've established that the speed measurement comes from the white wire in the multi-pin motor connector. I haven't got one, so can't measure it. It'll use a hall sensor to pulse on and off. You can check it easily with a meter to count the pulses per revolution by probing it with a meter whilst connected by turning the wheel backwards slowly. If it has it's own hall sensor, there will be one pulse, but if it shares a timing sensor, there will be several. Probe between white and black (ground) wires.

There's several ways to fool the system to make it think you're going slower.

1. You can use a microprocessor or any other electronics to reprocess the pulsing to a lower speed.

2 You can put a magnet on the back of the pedal and use a cycle computer sensor or hall sensor connected to the 5v throttle wire to get a pulse at pedal speed, which will be slower. This method used to work on the Bosch motor until they changed the software.

3 Assuming that it gets the pulsing from a timing sensor, use a normal cycle computer sensor and magnet on the back wheel.

Someone needs to test these methods. I can only be theoretical because I don't have a Neo, but it's a 5 minute job to try the latter two methods.

It would be nice if someone could check the number of pulses per rotation.

 

[twain]

(regarding speed sensing)

It would be nice if someone could check the number of pulses per rotation.

Poster pjgold made a post recently on the Australian technology site ‘Whirlpool’ regarding his investigation on this issue.

Quote:
"After a bit more digging around I found that the motor has an extra wire, BH are using an integrated speed sensor option available on the motors they are using.

It’s the white wire in the 6 pin plug; I confirmed this gently removing the wire from the plug and running the motor. No speed is displayed without this wire connected; bad news is without the speed reading it limited the assist to the 6 km/h walking pace limit.

The signal from this wire is 6 pulses of 4.2v per revolution.
Perhaps this signal can be modified to fool the limiter much like the Bosch mid drive unit".

Seen here: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=2074530&r=39853613#r39853613

 

[Melbourne]

(regarding speed sensing)

It would be nice if someone could check the number of pulses per rotation.

Poster pjgold made a post recently on the Australian technology site ‘Whirlpool’ regarding his investigation on this issue.

Quote:
"After a bit more digging around I found that the motor has an extra wire, BH are using an integrated speed sensor option available on the motors they are using.

It’s the white wire in the 6 pin plug; I confirmed this gently removing the wire from the plug and running the motor. No speed is displayed without this wire connected; bad news is without the speed reading it limited the assist to the 6 km/h walking pace limit.

The signal from this wire is 6 pulses of 4.2v per revolution.
Perhaps this signal can be modified to fool the limiter much like the Bosch mid drive unit".

Seen here: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=2074530&r=39853613#r39853613

lol... pjgold post in ES last week ago and d8veh kindly investigated/researched the topic...
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49720
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22919&start=1025

 

[d8veh]

I stake my reputation on this being a solution to eliminate the speed limit:

Buy the cheapest cycle computer fopm Ebay;
Cut the sensor off at the display end;
Pull the white wire from its connector and join one of the two wires on the cycle computer sensor to the place where the white wire was connected;
Join the other end to anywhere with a 5v supply - throttle or PAS red wires, or open the controller and find a spare 5v pad adjacent to throttle red;
Mount the magnet and sensor on whichever wheel you want. It's difficult to get the magnet close enough on the back wheel, so you'll need a spacer;
Enjoy your increase in speed;

Who's going to be first to try it?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LCD-Bike-Bicycle-Cycle-Computer-Odometer-Speedometer-NR-/120645085300?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Activity_Monitoring_MJ&hash=item1c1701e874

 

[pjgold]

Unfortunately the controller does not seem to be easily fooled.

Today I removed the white white from the plug and wired in a magnet reed sensor from a cheap cycle computer. The signal worked fine with just 1 magnet it was reading up to about up to 10 km/h in the shed.
Bad news is when actually riding the controller did not supply the power it did supply some but nowhere near normal power. So it may well be that the controller is reading both speed and torque, who knows?

I might be worth trying a much closer to full speed signal however I think this is a dead end.

At least I was able to MacGyver it with a paper clip and some tape and wire so no cut wiring and bike is back to factory standard.

 

[pjgold]

So TMM torque sensor web site http://www.idbike.com/tmm-powermanagement.htm says it has an output of 1-4V is that the same as a normal throttle voltage range.
If so could you just swap the controller and display unit and plug the torque sensor into a standard throttle input?