Testing a non-running scooter (new project!)

[klocwerk]

Hey all, long time lurker, first time poster.
A friend of mine mentioned he had a 48v scooter in his garage that had stopped running, and he wanted someone to take it off his hands.
Done and done.

It's a Libert-e Xero, vespa looking.
There's very little info out there on the web about these machines, but from what I've been able to dig up, it's a 48v system, has a brushless hub motor which is likely 1200w, and shipped with 20Ah LiPo battery packs; two of 'em.
The batteries haven't been charged in at least 2 years, I'm going to see if I can get anything out of them but I don't have much hope. They shipped in 2010, and had a 6yr life expectancy, but they haven't exactly been regularly maintained.

So how do I figure out why this system stopped running, without sinking money in a dead end?
- How low a voltage can I use to make sure the controller and motor combo works? Can I slap in a 12v SLA, or do I need to scrounge up 4 of 'em in series?
- Can I bypass the controller, and directly zap the motor to ensure that it functions?
- Can I rebuild the LiPO packs more cheaply than buying new ones, or are there risks I'm not aware of in reusing an old BMS and physical structure?

 

[Ykick]

Gonna likely need 40-60Vdc to power up. The motor’s probably brushless so can’t really hook it up directly to a battery to test. I’d concentrate on powering the system with something 40-60Vdc and capable of a few Amps. 2-5A should be enough to spin the motor off the ground.

More pictures of things like the battery, motor wires, controller, will help.

 

[klocwerk]

Figured as much, thanks for the confirmation.

It looks like the charger (WL-089-02) isn't recognizing the battery at all, the wire was repaired once. Going to see if there's a break in the wire that's causing it to not find the pack.

Disassembled one of the packs, getting 36.2v off the terminals so they may have a bit of life left in them. *fingers crossed*
See photos, the sides in the blue wrap are a little puffy, I'm not sure if that's fatal pack puff or if it's part of how it was designed...
Note that the black casing curves up there, so the second photo looks a lot worse than it really is.

 

[klocwerk]

Other pack reads 33.3v, not so good.
And distinctly puffing out the plastic casing.

When plugged into the charger, the output pins are reading 0.47v, instead of the 35ish it reads the rest of the time.
Good? Bad?
I'm guessing the BMS on the battery is shunting most of the input voltage away from the output pins... maybe it's trying to charge?

 

[klocwerk]

Yeah, ok. it'll take a bit of charge but it's distinctly puffy.
Guessing I should stop messing with them and recycle them? Or is a BMS going to keep it safe enough to get to 48v and test with?

 

[Ykick]

Can you measure voltage of each channel from the ribbon cable connector? One after the other, jot 'em down.

How many pin connector is that, btw? I cant see clear enough it looks to be around 14? You're only seeing 35'ish from the charger? That's suspect to me for a 48V system, unless I misunderstood? Are you sure it's the charger for the scooter? Does it have a label describing output voltage?

You can probably find replacement cells once we determine the specific chemistry. Very good chance BMS can be reused if you use similar chemistry and cell count. My guess is that cells are duff but there's a slim, next to zero chance they might recover with individual attention? Do you have an RC Battery Charger? They can be very handy at times like this.

But before going there I would qualify if motor/controller are working. It should all come around with a little work and ingenuity.

 

[klocwerk]

Can you measure voltage of each channel from the ribbon cable connector? One after the other, jot 'em down.

How many pin connector is that, btw? I cant see clear enough it looks to be around 14? You're only seeing 35'ish from the charger? That's suspect to me for a 48V system, unless I misunderstood? Are you sure it's the charger for the scooter? Does it have a label describing output voltage?

You can probably find replacement cells once we determine the specific chemistry. Very good chance BMS can be reused if you use similar chemistry and cell count. My guess is that cells are duff but there's a slim, next to zero chance they might recover with individual attention? Do you have an RC Battery Charger? They can be very handy at times like this.

But before going there I would qualify if motor/controller are working. It should all come around with a little work and ingenuity.

Appears to be a 16 cell pack. The 35ish is from the pack, I can't seem to get a reading directly off the charger. (I think it's too smart to push voltage with no load attached.)

The charger is a WL-089-02, which appears to be a common charger. I think the green LED is toast, but it appears to be working apart from that.
I left a battery on for about 5 mins, and then checked the battery voltage again and saw a small rise in voltage, so I'm fairly sure it works.

Not sure where I'll get 48v from without buying a new battery pack, but I'll see what I can figure out.

 

[Gregory]

I doubt it's 16S, typically 14 (or 13) is used for 48V with lipo.

 

[klocwerk]

I doubt it's 16S, typically 14 (or 13) is used for 48V with lipo.

Yeah, that was an assumption based on the charger, I was tired.
The BMS has 12 gray, 1 red, and 1 black wire, so I'm guessing 14 cells...

EDIT: 13s2p

 

[Ykick]

Any improvement with either battery after some hours on the charger?

 

[klocwerk]

Any improvement with either battery after some hours on the charger?

I was loathe to charge them given the puffiness, not a fan of burning my house down...
I'm going to take them out to the garage and hook them up today.

Anyone have a recomendation for an individual pack charger? I may disassemble these two stacks, scavenge the good cells, and reassemble a single good stack...

 

[Punx0r]

I would check the individual cell voltages before attempting to charge. It will also give you a good indication of whether the pack is repairable or not.

 

[klocwerk]

I would check the individual cell voltages before attempting to charge. It will also give you a good indication of whether the pack is repairable or not.

So I couldn't get voltages that made any sense out of the BMS connector, and I unwrapped the pack to try to get a better idea of what was going on.
It's a 13s2p pack! I was surprised.

Some of the cells were reading 3.6-3.9v across the tabs, and some are reading as low as 1.x volts... and are puffy.
Between the two packs I should have plenty of good cells to make a new stack, and it's pretty obvious which are bad, so looks like I have a re-stacking project on my hands!

 

[klocwerk]

If I have enough cells, is there any reason not to make the final product a 13s3p pack?

 

[Punx0r]

I can't see any reason why not

 

[klocwerk]

aaaand after all and MANY hours of web research, I ended up grabbing a 20ah LiFePo4 off ebay from a seller in California for under $500.
That'll let me get this bike back up and running while I learn how to rebuild a Lifepo pack on my own.

 

[Monstarr]

aaaand after all and MANY hours of web research, I ended up grabbing a 20ah LiFePo4 off ebay from a seller in California for under $500.
That'll let me get this bike back up and running while I learn how to rebuild a Lifepo pack on my own.

The pack you scrapped is not a lifepo pack. But ordinary li-po. Charged lifepo4 never stays long at 3,6V and then quickly drops to 3,4/3,3 V.
So if you measure 3,9V it is not lifepo.

I have the same motor, spec'ed @ 2000W but can, ofcourse, easily handle more.
It is brushless directdrive. So 3 phasewires and hall wires (pwr, gnd & 3 signal leads) enter motor through axle.

My advice.
Dump the original controller, they're terrible. Order a 12FET 'infineon' Lyen(.com) and get going .
Have mine now for 4 years now and it is still going strong!

 

[Ykick]

aaaand after all and MANY hours of web research, I ended up grabbing a 20ah LiFePo4 off ebay from a seller in California for under $500.
That'll let me get this bike back up and running while I learn how to rebuild a Lifepo pack on my own.

Is this seller twejacky? I saw listings earlier today and searched ES with no results. Says shipped from SF, CA but about seller info states China?

btw, one of these in a 60-80W iron for reworking pouch tabs and other large soldering jobs. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10803__Hammer_Head_Soldering_Tip.html

 

[klocwerk]

aaaand after all and MANY hours of web research, I ended up grabbing a 20ah LiFePo4 off ebay from a seller in California for under $500.
That'll let me get this bike back up and running while I learn how to rebuild a Lifepo pack on my own.

The pack you scrapped is not a lifepo pack. But ordinary li-po. Charged lifepo4 never stays long at 3,6V and then quickly drops to 3,4/3,3 V.
So if you measure 3,9V it is not lifepo.

I have the same motor, spec'ed @ 2000W but can, ofcourse, easily handle more.
It is brushless directdrive. So 3 phasewires and hall wires (pwr, gnd & 3 signal leads) enter motor through axle.

My advice.
Dump the original controller, they're terrible. Order a 12FET 'infineon' Lyen(.com) and get going .
Have mine now for 4 years now and it is still going strong!

Awesome, thanks for the heads up! I'll look into that controller as a replacement.
Do you have the same scooter? There's ZERO info out there on the web, would love any details you know if so, like wiring diagrams, where things are located, etc.

The chemistry of all the lithium variants is making my head spin, but I'm starting to get a handle on it, thanks for the clarication.

 

[klocwerk]

aaaand after all and MANY hours of web research, I ended up grabbing a 20ah LiFePo4 off ebay from a seller in California for under $500.
That'll let me get this bike back up and running while I learn how to rebuild a Lifepo pack on my own.

Is this seller twejacky? I saw listings earlier today and searched ES with no results. Says shipped from SF, CA but about seller info states China?

btw, one of these in a 60-80W iron for reworking pouch tabs and other large soldering jobs. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10803__Hammer_Head_Soldering_Tip.html

There were two sellers selling the same thing, which was odd. The one I bought from was imotorbattery.
Located in China, but shipped from SF. It's already en-route, should be on my porch on Monday (was hoping to play this weekend but nooooo).
I'll report back once I get it, I expect the basic chinese ebay special, but with domestic shipping speed.

 

[Ykick]

aaaand after all and MANY hours of web research, I ended up grabbing a 20ah LiFePo4 off ebay from a seller in California for under $500.
That'll let me get this bike back up and running while I learn how to rebuild a Lifepo pack on my own.

Is this seller twejacky? I saw listings earlier today and searched ES with no results. Says shipped from SF, CA but about seller info states China?

btw, one of these in a 60-80W iron for reworking pouch tabs and other large soldering jobs. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10803__Hammer_Head_Soldering_Tip.html

There were two sellers selling the same thing, which was odd. The one I bought from was imotorbattery.
Located in China, but shipped from SF. It's already en-route, should be on my porch on Monday (was hoping to play this weekend but nooooo).
I'll report back once I get it, I expect the basic chinese ebay special, but with domestic shipping speed.

My bad, I copied the wrong eBay user. The one I was asking about is/was - koyochen. Here's the listing I was looking at for a friend:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lifepo4-Lithium-48V15ah-Portable-Battery-E-Bike-Scooter-Built-in-BMS-Charger-/271889754345?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4de468e9

Not a bad deal if it can sustain a decent C rate?

 

[John in CR]

Don't give up on the original pack until you measure cell voltages. The way it's assembled would be super easy to make a pack out of the good cells, since you'd just be soldering wires together, not the tabs. As long as there's no adhesive between the cells, it looks like just quick work with a wire cutter to take apart. If there's just a few bad cells, then it would be the easiest pack rebuild I've seen.

 

[Monstarr]

aaaand after all and MANY hours of web research, I ended up grabbing a 20ah LiFePo4 off ebay from a seller in California for under $500.
That'll let me get this bike back up and running while I learn how to rebuild a Lifepo pack on my own.

The pack you scrapped is not a lifepo pack. But ordinary li-po. Charged lifepo4 never stays long at 3,6V and then quickly drops to 3,4/3,3 V.
So if you measure 3,9V it is not lifepo.

I have the same motor, spec'ed @ 2000W but can, ofcourse, easily handle more.
It is brushless directdrive. So 3 phasewires and hall wires (pwr, gnd & 3 signal leads) enter motor through axle.

My advice.
Dump the original controller, they're terrible. Order a 12FET 'infineon' Lyen(.com) and get going .
Have mine now for 4 years now and it is still going strong!

Awesome, thanks for the heads up! I'll look into that controller as a replacement.
Do you have the same scooter? There's ZERO info out there on the web, would love any details you know if so, like wiring diagrams, where things are located, etc.

The chemistry of all the lithium variants is making my head spin, but I'm starting to get a handle on it, thanks for the clarication.

There is a Dutch company which sells this Chinese retro scootertype as one of their 'own' models.
They modify certain things like connectors, apparel etc to give a small upgrade to the basic of these scooters.

Here is the link to a workshop manual
http://www.qwic.nl/uploads/2011/06/wph-qwic-emoto-87-web.pdf
It's in Dutch but there are a lot of pictures and technical overview.

I own a 25 km/hr Novox C20 (similar as yours and emoto 87) and a 45 km/hr Govecs S1.2

 

[klocwerk]

My bad, I copied the wrong eBay user. The one I was asking about is/was - koyochen. Here's the listing I was looking at for a friend:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lifepo4-Lithium-48V15ah-Portable-Battery-E-Bike-Scooter-Built-in-BMS-Charger-/271889754345?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4de468e9

Not a bad deal if it can sustain a decent C rate?

Yup, same one I grabbed from another seller (with basically the same info, but more positive reviews).
I'll post up some first-hand info once I get it next week.

 

[klocwerk]

Don't give up on the original pack until you measure cell voltages. The way it's assembled would be super easy to make a pack out of the good cells, since you'd just be soldering wires together, not the tabs. As long as there's no adhesive between the cells, it looks like just quick work with a wire cutter to take apart. If there's just a few bad cells, then it would be the easiest pack rebuild I've seen.

Thanks John,
Yeah, I'll isolate any bad pairs, do some math, and see what makes the most sense. Easiest would definitely be to just swap out the failed pairs.