The "3,000 Mile Rule"

[Drunkskunk]

25 cycles (DrunkSkunk) is simply an "error" of some sort...

I know exactly what my error was. It was using SLA.

As for you idea that proper use means keeping it to 1C, You basicly eliminate SLA from Ebikes all together. A small controller will run 20amps. To build an SLA battery that can handle 20 amps at 1C, you would need 8, 12V 10A batteries. This one I have on my workbench weighs 9 pounds. thats 72 pounds, and if by some miracle it gets 70% of the rated wattage over its lifetime, it will pump out 672 watts.

Anyone who believes 72 pounds of battery is acceptable on a bike for only 672 Watts Is smoking crack.

 

[EMF]

25 cycles (DrunkSkunk) is simply an "error" of some sort...

I know exactly what my error was. It was using SLA.

HAHAHAHHAHAH! I'll drink to that! An Alaskan Amber sounds good right now! 8)

 

[safe]

A small controller will run 20amps. To build an SLA battery that can handle 20 amps at 1C, you would need 8, 12V 10A batteries.

Americans are spoiled by our high peak power limits. We routinely pump out 750 watts all the way up to 5 horsepower on some of these souped up hub motors. Of course if you want to get into the "big power" you need to have batteries to match.

For an inexpensive electric bicycle the WalMart bike seems about right. Two 12V 10Ah batteries attached to a small motor putting out something like 250 watts seems just about right for it. (maybe a 12 Amp current limit - 288 watt peak)

What I'm seeing is sort of an "arms race" of more power on the bikes then demanding more batteries and more exotic batteries to compensate for the extra power.

If you where to stop and THINK about what I'm saying you will see the wisdom of the "3,000 Mile Rule". For some 12 year old kid that gets a bike for Xmas the parents don't want to spend $2000 to get him going. They might want to buy the electric bike so that the kid can be the same as their neighbor or whatever reason there might be. (you know how silly kids can be about what they want) So let's say this kid rides the bike a little and just decides he's not that into it. Then the bike goes to waste.

The "3,000 Mile Rule" is what separates the "WalMart Bike" from the Crystalyte Hub motor with LiFePO4, etc...

Does this make sense?

 

[Ypedal]

I dunno.. i read that twice.. i'll stick with the crystalyte and Lithium ..

I dont' want a toy.. and i'm a full grown adult ( immature.. but fulll grown ! )i want a real machine.

 

[D-Man]

At almost 2900 miles now, I can tell you from experience that small sla's are great for flat terrain areas. I encounter small uphill and downhill slopes but I think overpasses are as big as the hills get around here. One thing I've noticed is how quickly the sla's will loose energy if they sit for like 2 days with this many miles. (only 10 mile range) So I try to keep them going so they don't get sour. Today I did 13.5 miles with ocassional pedalling. Hadn't reached cut-off yet. But I did 4 miles right before that and then recharged. I do pedal more then I use to now that the batteries are wearing out. If I lived in hilly terrain, these batteries would probably crap out pretty fast.

 

[mvadventure]

I think, probably a mistake, that the geeks outweigh the wally world customers on this site. The little 250 watt motor is more than adequate with its 2 SLA's for the purpose intended it's just that few on this forum are using their bikes for the purpose intended. Bascially I've converted my beach bike into a pretty powerful unlicensed mo ped and there are lots of others here who have done the same thing making more powerful and faster bikes.

With the addition of the hub motor and then the LiPO4 batteries my bike has become my primary form of transportation and the car is used only when my bride is along or the grandkids. When I tried using the SLA's for a lot of my trips it was vital I recharge during the trip if I wanted to get home. That worked and I didn't bitch about it but would not want to revert back to them. When I use the scooters as transportation I carry the chargers with me and have learned where most businesses and shopping areas hide their outlets; lacking that ability would greatly decrease the enjoyment of them.

However, SLA's or fancy high end batteries, the EV grin has become a way of life for a lot of us. Fortunately I can bike 12 months a year and despite using the bike as my primary transportation I still enjoy riding along the ocean or the canopied bike paths in town. A little reggae on the headset, a hour or two to kill and I'm a happy camper.

Mike

 

[knoxie]

Yo

I think we should cut Safe a little slack here, in some ways what he says is right and Lead certainly works for his bike, but his bike is not an electric push bike it is a scooter or a motorbike if you like, his frame design and motorbikes and scooters do allow for such heavy batteries (lead) and will allow for the paralleling of the cells in order to get decent cycle life, the pe still kicks in though of course.

For e-bike (pushbike use) lead for an entry level machine is fine and it kick starts peoples interests, so many people have found this forum after buying cheap walmart bikes wanting to soup them up, my first kit the USPD had 2 x 12V batteries, the stock cells were pretty good actually and lasted 6 months of hard use and riding, not 3,000 miles but pretty good, all the cells I tried after that were woeful in comparison, I dont think they sell decent lead acid batteries here in the UK.

I have been running 48V of f cell nimh now for 2 years and they still kick out 10Ah, the volts sag a little under 3C loads but they still are working after 6,000 miles, I think thats pretty good and even tonight on the X5 it was peaking at 37A, I dont know of any lead acid batteries that could stand the course, the nice thinkg with Nimh there is no fancy BMS of LVC they are still a fantastic battery IMHO as the price has fallen back down from the silly level it had been.

I think for scooters and motorbikes lead is still a nice cheap short range choice but for performance e-bikes like most on this board lead isnt the most sensible option at all, NIMH I would say is entry level and A123 or Life being the top choice.

I also agree with Safe that power levels are getting silly on e-bikes which make lead look like a poor choice, whilst I love the way the battery developments are going, I run the X5 now which can of course take 4-5KW so it seems, but I am more than happy keeping it to 1500 watts max this would still be too much for lead on an e-bike without big weight penalties.

Just my 2 x watts worth as usual.

Knoxie

 

[safe]

I also agree with Safe that power levels are getting silly on e-bikes which make lead look like a poor choice, whilst I love the way the battery developments are going, I run the X5 now which can of course take 4-5KW so it seems, but I am more than happy keeping it to 1500 watts max this would still be too much for lead on an e-bike without big weight penalties.

It's very hard to go backwards with power. Ever since I started running in 48 volt mode (that's 1400 watts at the rear wheel) I'm going so much faster everywhere that the only times I use the 36 volt mode is for long rides to extend the range. So we are in an "arms race" of more power and more battery. Legally in America it's supposed to be 750 watts on the Federal level. California allows 1000 watts, my state of Missouri allows a ridiculous 2250 watts. But Europe and Australia only are allowed 250 watts. Just where this is going to go I don't know... but at 1400 watts I'm already going very fast. There's just no way I'm going to ride without leathers when I'm moving so fast all the time. Are leathers something that a 12 year old kid is going to own?

It's true that people here are in the "Well Over The 3,000 Mile Rule" category. Jeez... I put on almost 3,000 last summer, so actually I'm in the category for something like LiFePO4 or NiMh at the very least.

The idea of the rule was to give some "slack" for the people who might show up here and are just getting into the sport. It's a way of saying it's "okay" to start with an inexpensive SLA bike because at the beginning the price is reasonable.

I guess it's the argument:

"Oh... you will be just going to the poor house if you choose SLA because it wears out so fast."

...that I want to dispel. It's just not true, SLA is economical from day one, but at some point you should trade up to something better.

 

[vanilla ice]

Yes.. SLA is still the right choice for some people, for example something like a low volt sunday play bike that usually doesn't leave the neighborhood. Not ashamed to say my bike fits this category! Like one of our new members stated, I'm just stoked that I can ride on it, unlike with the electric RC cars from my youth... SLA is great for getting new people interested in ebiking, newbs typically wont be as demanding of performance and wont want to lay out as much cash compared with the hardcore peeps.

 

[truckerzero]

i notice a lot of people go with either nimh or a123 but for the same price or a little cheaper than a123 you can use highpower lithium polymer they have them in 20c continuous and 30c peak versions and if taken care of these would be my choice if i were to spend money in the lifepo4 range because its what i know and they are lighter than a123 for the same wh out put

 

[dogman dan]

Nice to see somebody harder on a battery than I am drunkskunk. I just wish price was my only reason for a choice of battery. I never got all the way home from work on sla's. Not one time. For some, they will never need lithium, but for many lithium is the difference between a practical ev and toy for the weekend. Not that toys are bad, they just may not get you to work.

 

[youreaspeedemon]

The idea of the rule was to give some "slack" for the people who might show up here and are just getting into the sport. It's a way of saying it's "okay" to start with an inexpensive SLA bike because at the beginning the price is reasonable.

I agree 100%, I got 8 12v 18ah batteries for free, if not for those batteries I wouldn't have been trying to find something to do with them when I stumbled onto this site, and decided, hey I can do that, have some fun, and save some money in the long run, which will probably be spent back into the bike, but hey it's a new hobby, or maybe more if it works out.

Yes SLA's are heavy, yes they are old technology, but they are cheap and they let me spend more money on everything else with the intent of upgrading to better batteries when the prices come down when everybody starts making them, I made 2 48v packs out of my SLA's, at 18ah, and I've not drained them all the way but I know I can get at least 18 miles out of them with almost no pedaling, that works great for me because I can charge at work and it is only about 12 miles even if they decline in ability I'll still be able to use them for quite some time. I charge with a 24v Soneil Charger with the batteries in a 2s2p config (2s2p is how you type it right?)

SLA is economical from day one, but at some point you should trade up to something better

Again 100% agreement. SLA's are cheap, the bunch I got even cheaper (free), so I spent more and I got the 36-72v 48a controller with the 4110 mosfets, a 5304 hub motor, a Cycle Analyst and all the other little odds and ends, I got all the stuff from ebikes.ca, they're a good lot over there. I will eventually replace the batteries because carrying 52lbs of lead makes my bike a little unstable at speeds but after riding it for a while you figure out how to compensate for those things and you don't go as fast as you can, restraint is the operative word.

The "3,000 Mile Rule"

I think the rule works, as long as you keep your amps down, don't over discharge stay around 80%, charge immediately after use and you'll be ok. I can't stand riding in the rain or the extremely cold so 3000 miles will take me a while to rack up. You just have to look at it from a different perspective, most people starting out don't want to drop the serious coin associated with high end batteries. Me I spent my money on the stuff that needs to be upgraded later so I wouldn't have to upgrade it later, all I have to do is upgrade my batteries and I'll have a real monster.

 

[safe]

I made 2 48v packs out of my SLA's, at 18ah, and I've not drained them all the way but I know I can get at least 18 miles out of them with almost no pedaling.

I think you've found what is the "sweet spot" for SLA in the tradeoff between power and weight. Four 18Ah SLA's is only about 50 lbs and yet it can deliver 5C (100 amps peak) which means that with "sag" you can expect a good ride while using the standard 40 amp controller. Throw in some wear and lost capacity and you can still pull your max amps even a few thousand miles out. It's not the ideal for longest range or longest battery life, but it's a good happy compromise.

My bike is going towards this configuration as the last of my old 38 Ah cells are finally slipping away after nearly 4,000 miles.

 

[pwbset]

Four 18Ah SLA's is only about 50 lbs

I can definitely respect your love of SLA and it's properties, but that kind of weight simply isn't an option for a lot of people's commuting needs. My *entire* setup soup to nuts is 60lbs and it's heavy at that! I'm trying to find ways to lighten the load. :?

 

[needWheels]

whilst watching Fox news

well there's your problem right there, lol
(those two words can't go together, it's not news)

anyways, in all seriousness, I'd love to have lifepo4 because I ride only a few days a week and I like the idea that the lithium could sit without being charged or slowly losing charge - and perhaps last 300 cycles over six years which you would NEVER get out of SLA

 

[docnjoj]

Scary thought! I agree with Safe!
otherDoc

 

[safe]

Just passed 4,000 miles today.

One of the original cells was replaced at 3,000 miles and now I've got another runt cell, so I'm going to replace the remaining old ones.

My new configuration should give LESS mileage because I'm pulling 2.2C rather than 1C.

 

[mark swenson]

I just built my 3rd ebike and have used every type of battery commonly available.

My current bike is a Sun Ez-1 with some heavy modification (heavy braking systems, slick, wide tires, bicygnals, underseat panniers, rear panniers, etc.

With motor, batteries (74 volts @ 21 amp-hours) and frame, the whole setup is between 65-75lbs (batteries are 18 lbs, 41 lb frame, plus motor).

Just to have SLA batteries that provide me with the rough equivilency of 72 volts, 20 amp-hours would weigh 84 lbs...I don't know if my frame could take it, but I promise I wouldn't want to ride if this was my setup. This 4 2/3 times as heavy as the Lithium and doesn't even give the same power.

Couple this with needing to be able to bring my batteries into work to charge, I would never want to run SLA batteries.

When I did run SLA batteries, I would wear myself out pretty quickly and I found that I could not get the center of gravity low enough to corner without slowing down to under 10 mph.

Yeah, if I had a purpose built frame like safe's, I might consider it until I could afford Lithium, but never with a modified standard mountain bike and probably not with a recumbent.

If I had to choose SLA batteries, I would just buy a light-weight motorcycle or moped.

 

[safe]

Yeah, if I had a purpose built frame like safe's, I might consider it until I could afford Lithium, but never with a modified standard mountain bike and probably not with a recumbent.

Without the custom frame it's not possible to carry as much battery as I once did. But I'm actually cutting back down to 18 ah's from 38 ah's and going 48 volts rather than 36 volts. (going from 86 lbs down to 52 lbs)

For a conventional frame the most you should carry is like with the WalMart bikes that use 24 volts and carry about 25 lbs worth of batteries. If you don't use the power so much SLA works fine, but the addiction to power on Electric Vehicles mirrors the rise in power with automobiles.

People will always be willing to pay more for power whether it's gas or electric. (economics is only one factor in a purchasing decision)

The "EV Grin" is simply human nature.

 

[mark swenson]

True, but for many people we see these bikes not as a recreational toy but as a viable alternative to our cars. 296 watt-hours is cheaper and far less powerful than a 6 cylinder engine run for 35 minutes (15 of which is idling).

I think lead is a great way to introduce these bikes as toys...lead just isn't practical if you want to maintain a safe (30-35mph) speed on a road for 10-15 miles (30 round trip)

 

[safe]

I think lead is a great way to introduce these bikes as toys...lead just isn't practical if you want to maintain a safe (30-35mph) speed on a road for 10-15 miles (30 round trip)

At 52 lbs of SLA my bike feels really light now. Compared to a 300 lb motorcycle the bike feels more "ebike" than "emotorcycle". The bikes would need to be designed for the added weight (batteries centered in the middle for proper weight balance) but it would work.

But the simple fact is that the frames of a regular bicycle are all wrong for it right now... so the "problem" is design and not wieght. 30-35 mph speed is easy and 10-15 miles range you could attain if you are set up right. The 18 Ah 48 volt setup seems to be a really good configuration because it's powerful and yet not too heavy.

Making it to 3,000 miles for the "3,000 Mile Rule" is a separate question though. At the higher "C" rates the lifespan of SLA goes down, so I would expect less mileage.

 

[D-Man]

I looked at those "power" type batterys. Those don't have a cycle test graph on the pdf spec sheet. At least I couldn't find it. Gruber batteries don't have cycle spec sheets either and I think those are the cheapest.

 

[truckerzero]

for a budget of a few thousand dollars ( no more than a modest new motorcycle)lithium makes sence for ebikes since the power required for a reasonable range insnt too much
for a electric car its not feasable for the average joe
but for the emotorcycle its doable but makes a motorcyle cost as much as a cheap car but a typical "big twin" harley costes 20,000 usd so if we can create a desire for electric the
genral public would pay 20,000 for a motorcycle.
harley has proven that but it cant be just a bike there has to be whole movement, lifestyle and what i would call
the x factor behind it
research the history of harley davidson motorcycles and some how recreate that for electric vehicles and i think we would be moving in the right direction
for converting a large number of people rather than just a few fanatics like us to the electric idea

 

[truckerzero]

my local walmart is converting to a super wal mart and since they re did the bicycle section now they carry the electric bicycle ive showed it to a few friends
and several of them say they are seriosly considering buying it especally the ones who live close to work
if people get interested in electric by buying a inexpesive electric bike like this mayby it will lead to people willing to spend a little more
for a better ( ie brushless with lithium battery) bike later on once they see the gas saving benifit it can give to their lives for short run needs
what do you guys think
p.s. mayby we should put pressure on our local bike shops to carry and offer test rides on a commercialy avalible ebike
what came first the chicken or the egg catch my drift???

 

[GASSTINKS]

a typical "big twin" harley costes 20,000 usd so if we can create a desire for electric the
genral public would pay 20,000 for a motorcycle.
harley has proven that but it cant be just a bike there has to be whole movement, lifestyle and what i would call
the x factor behind it

Sorry to say, but electric transportation will never be sexy. Ironically, most of us (e-bikers) are actually putting into effect the Harley "Ride to live; live to ride" motto with our commutes to work on them (e-bikes).