The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts

[agniusm]

+1 4 24S 8)

 

[cal3thousand]

Any updates on initial batch shipments?

 

[chvidgov.bc.ca]

I received my Satiator today in Victoria....It does not suck I love it already, and after a quick perusal of the online manual, I thought about what sort of usage pattern I will have.
Right now, I've got Ping 48V15Ahr pack with a Signalab BMS, and another 48V/15Ahr Ping pack with a 16s green BMS from bmsbattery.com which is set to 58.2 or 58.4 approximately on that charger. I will also be getting 2 Sunthing 10Ahr packs in the next week or so, a 13S Conhis panasonic 12Ahr battery (54.8V as I recall), and a 14S LiMn pack from emissions-free. So, I decided to not have a default profile as I will be using it with all these packs, forcing me to select the right profile for each charge which I want. I then figured out the way to set up two custom profiles, one at 60V/5 Amps for the Signalab (it won't balance at the default 57.6 profile which is the default from the factory, but needs 60, possibly even 61 - we will start with 60 -- edit...max is 60 on satiator), and the other profile at 58.2/5 amps for the Green 16S BMS...again a bit higher than the default 57.6. I removed the default setting completely as noted earlier and made that profile inactive, so now I have just two profiles active, and can select from just those two on startup - (I must choose the right one for the right pack, before it will charge). I will add the other pack profiles for the LiMn. According to the manual, just setting the terminal voltage and main charging amperage will be adequate, and the Satiator selects reasonable defaults for the other advanced parameters, based on those choices. I then tried the Satiator on the two pack types (both of which were fully charged), and it terminated charge on both profiles correctly, giving me 20 seconds on the green bms. So I have it working now on both packs properly. I'm enjoying this already. It took me a bit of time to figure out how to navigate the interface with the two buttons. The unit feels a bit smaller than I thought I would perceive it, and is completely silent, which will be great for charging in coffee shops or burger joints. It's nice to have the Anderson adaptor cable for the charger, ready to go with my packs...thanks Justin for that, and I shouldn't have any issues doing firmware updates with the additional supplied USB cable, given a few instructions. So far so good.

...more...just finished my first charge cycle on a Ping Battery with the 60V profile, from a depth of discharge of 60% to 100%. All the LEDs are on. Its fun to watch the voltage fluctuate up and down at the end of the charge cycle, as the LEDs twinkle, until they finally all come on. So total success on the Signalab BMS/Ping 48V 15Ahr. It's a bit eerie with the total silence of the unit, and I get this 2 second rush, thinking "darn it, the charger fan didn't turn on, is my pack or my charger hooped?"...nope, its just the Satiator charging normally.

..I also ordered some Andersons to build a Y cable, so I can charge both packs simulaneously in parallel, at 58.2.

 

[justin_le]

Any updates on initial batch shipments?

Yes, first batch went out yesterday and most of the balance of the ordered units were shipped this morning! So for everyone who ordered they should be en-route, and sorry again that we couldn't keep the original delivery schedule.

One of the final bits of complication was that in our bulk reflashing we were occasionally running into communication issues and finding that the transmit function of the USB->TTL communication cable was flaking out.It turns out that the communications cable we had made for the Cycle Analyst is a bit vulnerable if it is plugged into a live satiator since the satiator casing can be floating at well above the PC ground, with the tip of the connector (the TX pin) making first contact. So we've been modifying the cables we include in each beta unit to have proper voltage protection in the connector head


So I recommend everyone stick to using the included cable when reflashing the firmware, which can easily be distinguished from the general CA cable from the metal TRS plug.

We still need to do a full assessment but it looks like there are still a small number of units from the Beta run still available, so if you're reading this thread now and think you are a good candidate then send us an email to info@ebikes.ca

 

[justin_le]

It took me a bit of time to figure out how to navigate the interface with the two buttons.

I should say that the setup menu navigation is indeed more confusing than we had expected. Originally I wanted it so that from any screen you could easily figure out what to do or how to change things based only on the displayed text without any special "button presses". But the end result is that the process for setting up and editing profiles ends up feeling a bit too similar to the process of browsing through the active profiles to select which one starts charging.

Here is what we plan to implement for the V0.9 firmware which does a better job of separating out the process of setting up the satiator versus just browsing to choose an output:

and I shouldn't have any issues doing firmware updates with the additional supplied USB cable, given a few instructions. So far so good.

The details on firmware reflashing along with the reflash application download will be coming next.

 

[justin_le]

24S seems to be common enough that not reaching that voltage becomes a deal breaker for many.

Yup, this message seems to have come through pretty loud and clear guys
We'll make sure at the very least to aim for 100V (or 99.9V) max, rather than the initially planned 95-96V.

 

[jkbrigman]

24S seems to be common enough that not reaching that voltage becomes a deal breaker for many.

Yup, this message seems to have come through pretty loud and clear guys
We'll make sure at the very least to aim for 100V (or 99.9V) max, rather than the initially planned 95-96V.

Thank you Justin, much appreciated. The weight savings alone (not to mention the informatics) of a Satiator would definitely push me to replace my two brand-spankin-new onboard Meanwell LED supplies. They added 8 lbs to the weight of the bike and you sure can feel it....

 

[bspalteh]

Got one today as well, feels like Christmas! Tried charging a 48/10ah ezee pack, worked fine although it was 80% to start with. Now charging 48v 18ah older nimh pack. Charger didn't like the thermistor, which is reading 12k at room temperature. Charging without it for now. That charger case sure gets hot!

More testing tomorrow. Thanks!

 

[justin_le]

Got one today as well, feels like Christmas! Tried charging a 48/10ah ezee pack, worked fine although it was 80% to start with. Now charging 48v 18ah older nimh pack.

Oh yikes, I meant to mention in the V0.808 firmware for Nickel profiles is that there is a bug that is causing to to keep current flowing at the top-up current even after the top-up time has elapsed. The -dV/dt end of charge detection is fine, but the top-up charge (0.5A at 1hr by default) sometimes keeps running well after 1hr. It will work but for now set the top-up current in your profile to like 0.1A or so, just to replace the natural leakage. I think Bernhard you are the only one with immediate plans to use it on NiMH packs. I meant to send a post out to this effect, didn't realize people would have received their units quite so soon.

Charger didn't like the thermistor, which is reading 12k at room temperature.

Are you getting the message "themistor error" when it it plugged in, or is it showing strange temperatures?

That charger case sure gets hot!

Yes, this is one consequence of fan-free design. Casing shouldn't get much more than 60oC, which is fine for all the electronic components but it is definitely in the hot-to-touch territory.

-Justin

 

[bspalteh]

Ok, I will be watching it carefully for now. Got case temp to 64C so far, with output still at 363W, is that ok, I thought the manual says it scales output back above 60C?

 

[bspalteh]

I'm getting thermistor error on the screen.

 

[justin_le]

Now charging 48v 18ah older nimh pack.

One other note about old NiMH packs is that on the first charge after they have been sitting idle for a while, you will probably hit the -DeltaV termination prematurely since the packs tend to show a lot of resistance initially when charging which then reduces as more charge current flows up and the chemical reactions start to transform the electrodes, and this causes some voltage drop even though it has nothing to do with the pack getting hot. So rather than the default -0.2V dV setting, you might need a higher value like -0.5V or more on the first charge. Is it still charging at the bulk amps phase OK?

 

[bspalteh]

I had recently charged it, so that should be ok. It terminated correctly on dV, I think max voltage got to 62.5, then dropped, just as pack was starting to get warm. Max charger temp got to 66C.

 

[bspalteh]

Satiator testing.......58AH, 7 hours so far.

 

[parabellum]

Justin, why 24V lower limit? 12V would open huge additional market.

 

[mushymelon]

Justin, why 24V lower limit? 12V would open huge additional market.

Using this for my boat too.

How sweet would that be!

 

[mrbill]

Justin, why 24V lower limit? 12V would open huge additional market.

The specs in the User Manual show that full-charge voltage can be set as low as 12 volts.

 

[parabellum]

Justin, why 24V lower limit? 12V would open huge additional market.

The specs in the User Manual show that full-charge voltage can be set as low as 12 volts.

That is cool!
Actually, specs clearly state Output Range 24-60V, 0-8A, 0-360 Watts, somewhere in the manual pages is written 12-60V.
I suppose specs in manual and brochure should be changed then, to not mislead customers.

 

[mrbill]

Justin, why 24V lower limit? 12V would open huge additional market.

The specs in the User Manual show that full-charge voltage can be set as low as 12 volts.

That is cool!
Actually, specs clearly state Output Range 24-60V, 0-8A, 0-360 Watts, somewhere in the manual pages is written 12-60V.
I suppose specs in manual and brochure should be changed then, to not mislead customers.

The 24-60V range quoted in the brochure may be for the preset profiles. The User Manual suggests that custom profiles can be created with a minimum 12-volt upper voltage limit.

 

[mrbill]

Hi Justin:

Congratulations on producing a most excellent battery charger, and thanks for offering early samples to the E-S community at a discount for beta-testing. I especially like that it has been vibration-tested and is suitable for carrying on the bike as when touring, when a busted charger could cause major inconvenience.

As one of the few e-bikers still using lowly 24-volt (nominal) batteries (7s LiPo and 8s LiFe), I would like to be able to get the full 360 watts out of the CS (CycleSatiator) on the CC (constant current) cycle when charging my batteries.

Could the maximum output current limit be increased to 12A by a firmware update, or would doing so violate a hardware limit or capability?

 

[cal3thousand]

Can anyone that has received the unit confirm the 12V capability?

Would be kind of silly not to allow 12V for SLAs. Not that I don't have a 12V SLA charger, but for road trips in the car, this could be an interesting go-everywhere device.

(I'm waiting on my unit that somehow went from Canada to San Francisco to Denver and I'm in LA ... lol Ontrac )

 

[justin_le]

Can anyone that has received the unit confirm the 12V capability?
Would be kind of silly not to allow 12V for SLAs. Not that I don't have a 12V SLA charger, but for road trips in the car, this could be an interesting go-everywhere device.

Yes, sorry this should be laid out more clearly. The design target was for 24-48V nominal packs. You can indeed set the satiator's output down to 12V, as Bernhard was doing charging up that massive NiCad battery bank. The device efficiency is definitely reduced at the lower the output voltages though, so even though the power output at 12V 8A is on the order of just over 100W, it will still get close to thermal rollback if you are charging at the full 8A. While if you run at 100W into a 36V or 48V battery, it would stay cool as a cucumber.

The other caveat is that at lower voltages _and_ low currents, then the statiator's power stage will operate in burp mode. So instead of a steady output current it will come in pulses at anywhere from 5-30Hz. Here for instance is the waveform with it running 10V and 3A into a load. The actual current goes a little over 4A for 28mS, and then drops to 0A for about 10mS.


I don't imagine there is much consequence to this, and normally the burp mode happens at a fast enough frequency that it gets averaged out on the display OK. But if you do see the numbers dance around a bit, especially towards the end of charging as the current ramps down to a trickle, that is why.

 

[justin_le]

As one of the few e-bikers still using lowly 24-volt (nominal) batteries (7s LiPo and 8s LiFe), I would like to be able to get the full 360 watts out of the CS (CycleSatiator) on the CC (constant current) cycle when charging my batteries.
Could the maximum output current limit be increased to 12A by a firmware update, or would doing so violate a hardware limit or capability?

To get a full 360 watts with a 24V battery we'd need different device magnetics meant for a generally lower voltage/higher current output. So for now to make use of the full 360 watts, all you'd need to do is series connect your two batteries into a 48V nominal block for charging

 

[mrbill]

As one of the few e-bikers still using lowly 24-volt (nominal) batteries (7s LiPo and 8s LiFe), I would like to be able to get the full 360 watts out of the CS (CycleSatiator) on the CC (constant current) cycle when charging my batteries.
Could the maximum output current limit be increased to 12A by a firmware update, or would doing so violate a hardware limit or capability?

To get a full 360 watts with a 24V battery we'd need different device magnetics meant for a generally lower voltage/higher current output. So for now to make use of the full 360 watts, all you'd need to do is series connect your two batteries into a 48V nominal block for charging

Thanks for the explanation.

Charging in series would work if I use an even number of batteries that have the same capacity, although with the inconvenience of having to reconnect them with a series wye. But, lately I've found that 3 parallel batteries (600wh each) hits the sweet spot between "enough capacity" and "too much weight" for the longer trips I take.

In spite of the reduced power available at 24 volts nominal I'm still interested in the CS for its other features. Are any beta-tester units still available?

 

[justin_le]

I'm getting thermistor error on the screen.

Time for a firmware reflashing! The beta V808 firmware that was shipped has the 3rd signal wire configured as a digital output for debug/datalogging rather as an analog input for thermistor usage. So if anyone else is planning to test their device with a NiMH or NiCad pack and wants to use thermistor for pack temperature sensing (rather than just the -DeltaV termination), you'll want to try with this thermistor enabled firmware build:
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_V0.808_Thermistor.hex

Everything else should be the same, but now when you plug in the battery pack with a thermistor enabled NiMH profile, you'll be able to see the actual battery temperature as well as the Satiator temperature on the top line of info text.

How do you reflash the firmware? Well we've now got the Version 1.0 satiator update tool ready for download.
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_Updater_V1.0_Setup.exe


Getting the satiator in bootloader mode requires holding the lower button while you power it on, at which point the screen should be totally blank. Then when you run the updater it should connect and communicate fine, as per the help dialog:


Even if people aren't using the thermistor functinality, it would still be worthwhile just verifying that you are able to run the above program and update the firmware with the hex file linked above. There will be firmware with new functionality soon so it'll be good to ensure that everyone will have no issues getting their beta devices updated.