The Duty Cycle AWD

[j3tch1u]

stripped a usb phone charger (car) and hooked it up to the 12v regulator. if you have an iphone, be sure it is compatible (iphones need to see specific voltage on the data pins in order to work).

 

[j3tch1u]

tarot 2D gimbal and gopro3. i made a custom mounting plate and attached a 1" ram mount ball. gimbal is powered by the 12v dc regulator. has an on/off switch for convenience (when it comes alive and aligns itself, it reminds me of terminator). my friend is making a documentary about bicycles. this bike will be in the film (and will also be used as a chase cam for some of the shots).

 

[t3sla]

The phone charger trick is awesome and so simple, one of the first mods should add to their bike.

Noticed your using a wuxing throttle not a Magura 5K like planned, assume it was due to position limitations reasons?
I do like that model wux throttle, very neat and compact. If only ORO made an equivalent.

 

[fechter]

Awesome build! Looks like you have some really steep roads going to your house. I may need to steal some of your ideas. :wink:

 

[teklektik]

...added a thumb wheel pot to the thumb throttle that connects to aux pot on the CA. I have it set to limit current (and also effectively PAS assist power). the pot is a 20k (that's all i could find) and i had to add an 850ohm resister to the wiper or else the CA screen would blank out when the pot is turned up. could anyone explain why this happens?

Very cool to see the thumb pot implemented. I've been wanting to do this but was afraid of water issues. The small size and natural rolling thumb adjustment just seem like such a desirable ergonometric control. Please keep us posted on how it holds up in wet weather.

Not to state the obvious, but I'm pretty sure you got the connections for wiper and one end interchanged. In spite of being careful, I've accidentally done this myself when wiring the connector - I positioned the wires with wiper in the middle (pin 2) like the pot instead of at the end (pin 3) like the CA - dialing the pot to one end shorts Gnd to the 5v supply causing the screen to blank. Fortunately, the CA current limiting prevents an immediate regulator meltdown. Anyhow - what you have works, which is good, so I'm not sure you want to fiddle with it at this stage.

 

[j3tch1u]

i find the thumb throttle suits this bike better and safer for general market (ppl not used to the torque of an ebike). it also lets me use both front/rear twist shifters.

for moto/race (mostly throttle) bikes like Dogati, i like the magura.

ya, i'm surprised nobody sells a drop-in 5v dc step-down regulator/usb charger. looked everywhere, none to be found. comes in really handy cuz my gps is always draining the iphone.

The phone charger trick is awesome and so simple, one of the first mods should add to their bike.

Noticed your using a wuxing throttle not a Magura 5K like planned, assume it was due to position limitations reasons?
I do like that model wux throttle, very neat and compact. If only ORO made an equivalent.

 

[j3tch1u]

thank you (or as they say here in asia 3Q). i live on a mountain. like my life, it's either steep climb or flying descent no in-between. i am coincidentally capricorn--the mountain goat.

i prefer to give away my ideas before they have the chance to be stolen :wink:

Awesome build! Looks like you have some really steep roads going to your house. I may need to steal some of your ideas. :wink:

 

[j3tch1u]

teklektik, if it wasn't for your hard work and comprehensive manual i'd still be running in circles.

just came back from more testing and i'm pretty happy with how it works. it's accessible by index finger or thumb and forces you to take your thumb off the throttle (for safety). the position on the flat throttle body also makes it less prone to damage (if you flip the bike upside down for servicing). i wouldn't be too concerned with water issues--it's easy enough to completely seal with silicone. i filled the inside as well to secure the hall and make the throttle completely IP67. whatever you do, don't use crazy glue on the pot like i first did (instant fail).

i used white wire to match the CA's so i wouldn't make that mistake maybe some pots have dead spots?

...added a thumb wheel pot to the thumb throttle that connects to aux pot on the CA. I have it set to limit current (and also effectively PAS assist power). the pot is a 20k (that's all i could find) and i had to add an 850ohm resister to the wiper or else the CA screen would blank out when the pot is turned up. could anyone explain why this happens?

Very cool to see the thumb pot implemented. I've been wanting to do this but was afraid of water issues. The small size and natural rolling thumb adjustment just seem like such a desirable ergonometric control. Please keep us posted on how it holds up in wet weather.

Not to state the obvious, but I'm pretty sure you got the connections for wiper and one end interchanged. In spite of being careful, I've accidentally done this myself when wiring the connector - I positioned the wires with wiper in the middle (pin 2) like the pot instead of at the end (pin 3) like the CA - dialing the pot to one end shorts Gnd to the 5v supply causing the screen to blank. Fortunately, the CA current limiting prevents an immediate regulator meltdown. Anyhow - what you have works, which is good, so I'm not sure you want to fiddle with it at this stage.

 

[teklektik]

i used white wire to match the CA's so i wouldn't make that mistake maybe some pots have dead spots?

Very glad to hear the manual was useful.... Maybe a little return for your inspirational builds

Yep - flat spots at the ends are quite common, but that doesn't explain the screen blanking. If you wanted to test without too much effort, you could check the CA current draw - either the whole CA or just the AuxPot. It should remain unchanged as the pot is adjusted. If it varies, then it's connection mixup as the Gnd-to-5v AuxPot resistance changes from 20.8K to only 0.8K (0.2ma vs 6.25ma). But again - "If it works, don't fix it..."

Sadly, I used color coded wiring too, but managed to bumble the order anyway...

 

[j3tch1u]

hey teklektik this softpot might work nicely (it's rated IP66): https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8680

not sure whether it can be operated with gloves tho.

i used white wire to match the CA's so i wouldn't make that mistake maybe some pots have dead spots?

Very glad to hear the manual was useful.... Maybe a little return for your inspirational builds

Yep - flat spots at the ends are quite common, but that doesn't explain the screen blanking. If you wanted to test without too much effort, you could check the CA current draw - either the whole CA or just the AuxPot. It should remain unchanged as the pot is adjusted. If it varies, then it's connection mixup as the Gnd-to-5v AuxPot resistance changes from 20.8K to only 0.8K (0.2ma vs 6.25ma). But again - "If it works, don't fix it..."

Sadly, I used color coded wiring too, but managed to bumble the order anyway...

 

[teklektik]

hey teklektik this softpot might work nicely (it's rated IP66): https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8680

not sure whether it can be operated with gloves tho.

Not a bad thought but that little guy looses the setting when you release pressure. It looks more like a linear touch pad kind of input device for a processor.
Good try though....

Yep - gloves are a biggie in this geographic region. I need to move where it's warm...

 

[j3tch1u]

you were right, i had the wiper connected to ground (middle pin) and when i was reconnecting it i almost did it again. i think something in the brain wants to maintain symmetry. everything works fine now, thanks very much for tip!

hey teklektik this softpot might work nicely (it's rated IP66): https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8680

not sure whether it can be operated with gloves tho.

Not a bad thought but that little guy looses the setting when you release pressure. It looks more like a linear touch pad kind of input device for a processor.
Good try though....

Yep - gloves are a biggie in this geographic region. I need to move where it's warm...

 

[kudos]

just received my 6T motors from paul. will post results soon enough.

Them twin Macs pull hard and fast up them hills, on the down trip you can see how steep and long it is

For some reason i like to go faster uphill than on the flat, must be a mental thing. Was only marvelling at my single Mac 8t earlier today, flying up a fairly steep hill, twin motors would be awsome

How are you finding twin 6T's compared to the 8T's ?

I'm considering an AWD bike myself too now after seeing how yours performs.

Kudos

 

[j3tch1u]

the 6T's are great...i can hit close to 70kph on a full charge. there is still lots of torque for starts and steep hills since the bike is light and the motors wanna spin up to speed quickly. acceleration is still very strong. ramp up, torque and pas settings on the CA must be tuned so pedal assist starts are not so abrupt. the 6T's are slightly noisier but still quiet enough (ie. other people don't notice that the bike is electric). the controllers run hotter than with the 8T's, so i installed an LM35 temp sensor on the high-side fets and set the CA to limit power when it hits 70-80 deg. i haven't been able to overheat the 8Ts or 6Ts so far so i don't monitor the motor temps anymore. the 8T's run more efficiently with the 12FET 4110 controllers and that is what i will put on the production bikes. however, i plan to keep the 6Ts for my bike because i like to hit higher speeds on wide open roads when there are no cars (and also because i will test some FOC controllers in the near future). if space is no concern, then 18FET controllers (or 12FET /w fan or open air) would prob be better match (mine are in a bag).

just received my 6T motors from paul. will post results soon enough.

Them twin Macs pull hard and fast up them hills, on the down trip you can see how steep and long it is

For some reason i like to go faster uphill than on the flat, must be a mental thing. Was only marvelling at my single Mac 8t earlier today, flying up a fairly steep hill, twin motors would be awsome

How are you finding twin 6T's compared to the 8T's ?

I'm considering an AWD bike myself too now after seeing how yours performs.

Kudos

 

[cwah]

is it this one you used and that is quite sketchy?
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/wholesale-POWER-787A-MCU-Spot-Welder-Battery-Welder-AC-180V-240V-Applicable-Notebook-and-Phone-Battery/898890556.html

I'd like to get one to weld these same cells

 

[cwah]

is this one ok?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYXvTc_f1m8[/youtube]
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/wholesale-POWER-787A-MCU-Spot-Welder-Battery-Welder-AC-180V-240V-Applicable-Notebook-and-Phone-Battery/898890556.html

 

[RoadWrinkle]

What a talented builder! The custom, triangle battery config is very clean and obviously stout. I know a guy here on Maui that is running dual GM MP3's hubs @1000 watts each on a specialized rock hopper, he flies around Maui at 50mph plus and takes on the volcano incline with ease!

 

[j3tch1u]

no, i don't think you'd be happy with that one either. i ordered this one (DN-10) based on some feedback i got from a friend. unfortunately, the website is in chinese. on my 2nd pack, i just soldered it--faster than using a cheap spot welder and more reliable connections.

http://trade.taobao.com/trade/detail/trade_snap.htm?spm=0.0.0.0.Vb2nir&trade_id=399086158140177

is this one ok?
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/wholesale-POWER-787A-MCU-Spot-Welder-Battery-Welder-AC-180V-240V-Applicable-Notebook-and-Phone-Battery/898890556.html

 

[liveforphysics]

I am pretty sure the 18650pd is what goes in the Tesla Model S

I doubt that

JB Straubel, CTO and Tesla Co Founder told a conference at SAE International, 12-Mar-2013
"We use a nickel-cobalt-aluminum (LiNiCoAlO2) lithium-ion chemistry for our battery cathode material. We don’t use a titanate, which has about half the energy density but is generally good at high charge rates. Some start-ups are using metal oxides; we fall broadly in that category. At this point we really have heavily customized that cell. We’ve totally custom-engineered that cell working jointly with Panasonic to create. It’s an automotive cell, tested to automotive standards. It doesn’t go into laptops anywhere. What keeps us in that general shape and size is the production and cost efficiency. We’re seeing price points that none of the larger-format cells are able to meet. "

The PD is the first EV developed 18650, and it's LiNiCoAlO2, and it's panasonic, and they all have Tesla's vent design, and there are photos of the PD used in the new Rav4 EV opened up battery pics (Rav4 battery supplied by Tesla).
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=99
Still doubt it's he model S cell?

 

[kdee122]

Keep in mind the automotive world has very long product lead times. I think the RAV4 pack was designed in 2008-2009.

I am a huge fan of 18650 for large packs, but I don't use them for my 20Ah 100v ebike battery packs yet. There is some complexity that I am not prepared to confront yet. Even the pack for my EV racecar is likely to be boring old A123s simply because it is easier. It is very important to "design" a 18650 pack and i mean things like understand the range of resistance in cell connections (high vs. low) and how that will effect the pack, bms and cells.

 

[j3tch1u]

hey azizi, your new version is looking good. can't wait to go tear up the hills with you.

there are pros and cons to the prismatic and 18650. i had issues on the dogati /w the a123. lost several cells due prob due to lack of compression, no paralleled groups and inconsistent cell quality overall. on the first duty cycle 18650 pack, my weak spot welds were causing 3 parallel groups to drop faster causing the bms to cutoff. in future packs, i will use a better spot welder and thicker nickel. i will be going with 18650 on both bikes moving forward because there is r&d behind that format (the most important consideration imo).

you and luke should meet up sometime. i think he will like your "motorcycle with pedals".

Keep in mind the automotive world has very long product lead times. I think the RAV4 pack was designed in 2008-2009.

I am a huge fan of 18650 for large packs, but I don't use them for my 20Ah 100v ebike battery packs yet. There is some complexity that I am not prepared to confront yet. Even the pack for my EV racecar is likely to be boring old A123s simply because it is easier. It is very important to "design" a 18650 pack and i mean things like understand the range of resistance in cell connections (high vs. low) and how that will effect the pack, bms and cells.

 

[j3tch1u]

the 5A curve on that graph is quite impressive. matches my experience...short, sharp drop initially, then levels out and holds pretty strong. although, my connections are far from optimized. the cell-logs are showing excess drop on 3 p-groups (due to insufficient nickel and weak spot welds i think) so the bms is cutting out and i am not getting the most out of the pack. more work must to be done to tighten the spread.

cell-log discharge graph 7s (black line is pack V)

The PD is the first EV developed 18650, and it's LiNiCoAlO2, and it's panasonic, and they all have Tesla's vent design, and there are photos of the PD used in the new Rav4 EV opened up battery pics (Rav4 battery supplied by Tesla).
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=99
Still doubt it's he model S cell?

 

[cwah]

no, i don't think you'd be happy with that one either. i ordered this one (DN-10) based on some feedback i got from a friend. unfortunately, the website is in chinese. on my 2nd pack, i just soldered it--faster than using a cheap spot welder and more reliable connections.

http://trade.taobao.com/trade/detail/trade_snap.htm?spm=0.0.0.0.Vb2nir&trade_id=399086158140177

Thanks for your answer. I've looked at the DN-10 but it seems that it doesn't have the 2 pin to weld cells? It needs to be done by hand?

 

[neptronix]

Ben, could you possibly give us a video showing the speed of acceleration on a 0-60kmh ( or whatever your top speed is ) run?

I have an 8T MAC already and am seriously considering following in your footsteps.

 

[j3tch1u]

hey nep, i will try to get a video of a 0-70kph run for you. after switching to the 6T's i won't go back. even with the dual 6T's i have to raise the throttle ramp to avoid 2 wheel spinouts.

Ben, could you possibly give us a video showing the speed of acceleration on a 0-60kmh ( or whatever your top speed is ) run?

I have an 8T MAC already and am seriously considering following in your footsteps.