the electric rickshaw thread

[gestalt]

As some of you might already know one of my jobs is driving a rickshaw (or pedicab if you prefer) during the summer to finance my cruiser project. So all this time pulling people around pitting my body and will against the pain of pulling mostly overweight people around on a bicycle has got me thinking about how nice it would be to have some electric assist, Especially when going uphill.

Well the city of Boston has forbidden us to have electric assist on our cabs, for whatever reason. I was discussing this with my friend Ted at the MITers shop while on the subject of how to start to change the ways we do transportation in cities and he pointed out that Cambridge has no such laws or rules. Also how great it would be to have a sort of bar flyer service running from 11pm-3am thursday through saturday. There happens to be a few options for funding and plenty of resources for fabrication, materials, ect. The school has been pretty awesome with party related perks such as a bar with wicked cheap drinks because they subsedise the place.

So if you had a nearly unlimited supply of M1 cells what kind of motor/controller would you integrate into a bicycle rickshaw? I would say that on average my human cargo is about 300-350lbs and my vehicle weighs in around 150lbs, but I have pulled 1000lbs worth of people not counting myself up a hill before...slowly but I did do it. Considering that adding 100-200lbs for an electric system wouldn't really make that much of a difference as far as difficulty riding goes. here are some pedicab pictures to get those creative juices flowing.

and here is a different version quite similar to the ones we had last year which is actually a trailer that attaches to the seat post of a regular mountain bike. the advantage being that it rides much more like a bicycle and is easy to repair both the bike as it uses all off the shelf parts unlike traditional pedicabs and the trailer itself it easy to repair and rather light weight.

I think maybe a axle going all the way from hub to hub to mount a sprocket to would be the way to go. also using a regen system would be a great way to have braking on the trailer, and frictionless at that.

 

[maydaverave]

I have been thinking about doing the same thing. I was thinking one of those ebikekit front hub motors that are being sold right now for cheap because they are wound for low speed high torque.

 

[amberwolf]

Since you're talking hills, I'd specifically take advantage of the shiftable bike drivetrain and use a bottom-bracket type drive. It could be something like the cyclone, stokemonkey, or my CrazyBike2. You could take one of those hubs on sale and run it like a SM thru the cranks, rather than direct in the wheel.

Batteries, you've got. Controller, any of them that can take higher currents for a period, and preferably higher voltage, around 72V, for instance. Might not have to be that high; 48 might be enough. 9Fet or 12Fet is probably enough if it has cooling in the hotter weather.

Waterproof everything against the humidity and rain, and if they salt there in winter protect against that, too.

 

[liveforphysics]

Something as quiet as possible, so they don't hear it.

Something that mounts under the rear seating/enclosed part so they don't see it.

Something geared very low, so perhaps the top speed is only 15-20mph, but it's got the torque to climb up a tree with a couple of fatties in the back.

Something with a very low KV, so the gearing can be a simple 1-stage belt drive to minimize sound and complexity.

Perhaps a 9C hubmotor mounted up in stokemonkey-like fashion, using a belt drive setup with perhaps a 4:1 reduction ratio, then feed the 9C 100v or so.

Then you end up with something that has the hill climbing ability of 4x 9C hubmotors, while packing a top speed of maybe 15-20mph, and it should be pretty quiet and simple, and of course as reliable as you make the drive components.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Definitely have some type of radio/CD-player. Not only will customers like that, it will explain why you have a battery on-board if someone looks under the skirt. Also a radio will cover up any noise the "near-silent" direct-drive hub would make.

I would place the battery/controller/motor under the customers seat. I like the separate trailer. I agree with LFP on silent. If you have a hidden 408-ish hub attached to the axle by a chain, and anyone asks, just say its a generator so that on the downhills it charges up your batteries for the radio and headlight/tail-lights.

There isn't a reliable RF wireless throttle I know of yet, but a (throttle) wire going back to the trailer can be explained by saying it controls the trailer-brake, and also if the trailer un-hitches, the wire disconnecting automatically engages the trailer-brake.

Investigate a "plug-brake", its like regen, but it doesnt put anything back into the battery, it just converts hub electrical back-pressure (on down-hills)into a heated coil to dissipate the energy into the air. Simple, cheap, and reliable. Best of luck!

 

[Icewrench]

I`ve seen two amped up Mainstreet pedicabs here in Seattle like the one in the first pic. Both are using Golden front hub motors at 48 volts with stout forks and no torque arms.
I wonder about a hub motor grafted in where the freewheel and gears are on one of those Mainstreet cabs but it would involve a re design of the frame in that area. The front hub motor is a quick and easy way to get it done.

 

[gogo]

A quick search on Google turned up some interesting stuff.

A pedicab with a Lynch motor drive option:
http://www.cyclesmaximus.com/electricassist.htm#lynch

These guys used a 5 speed geared hub in a mid drive system on their Amsterdam pedicabs. I think they were using a hub motor (out of the wheel) for the power source. You could email them to find out.
http://www.wielertaxi.nl/

A pedicab forum:
http://www.pedicabforum.com/forums/forum.php

 

[zap]

Same idea using a Worksman http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15456

 

[Papa]

Well the city of Boston has forbidden us to have electric assist on our cabs, for whatever reason.

Is this from a reliable/legal source that can be verified in writing? If not, I strongly encourage you to do definitive research with the state and local agencies prior to reaching for your plastic. Don't rely on 'friends' or even police officer's info because most don't know the law. It'd be a heart-breaker to get nabbed after spending big $ for a conversion. Likewise, you may be legally able to do it. Get the specific statutes/codes in writing! http://www.mass.gov/rmv/license/7moped.htm

I built an EV specifically targeted for Idaho's 49-114 (9)(b) and carry a copy of the specific statute with me at all times -- Not surprising, I've been stopped 3 times in the last 2 years asking "where my plates are".

 

[amberwolf]

Put a plate on the back with "Statute #49-114 (9)(b)".

 

[gestalt]

Something as quiet as possible, so they don't hear it.

Something that mounts under the rear seating/enclosed part so they don't see it.

Something geared very low, so perhaps the top speed is only 15-20mph, but it's got the torque to climb up a tree with a couple of fatties in the back.

Something with a very low KV, so the gearing can be a simple 1-stage belt drive to minimize sound and complexity.

Perhaps a 9C hubmotor mounted up in stokemonkey-like fashion, using a belt drive setup with perhaps a 4:1 reduction ratio, then feed the 9C 100v or so.

Then you end up with something that has the hill climbing ability of 4x 9C hubmotors, while packing a top speed of maybe 15-20mph, and it should be pretty quiet and simple, and of course as reliable as you make the drive components.

Great Ideas there Luke, stealth is really key with this build as one of the biggest selling points when working with a pedicab is the exertation involved. The biggest reason to electrify with this one for cambridge is because I think pedicabs need just a bit of a boost to become a viable transportation solution. How it works for me working downtown boston is that it is more of a novelty ride and we mostly target tourists or people going to baseball games. Compared to a ICE cab I am much slower therefor have to get quite a bit more money for shorter rides to make a living at this. With an human electric hybrid it would make it possible to become a little more affordable for people to go for rides that are quite a bit longer. For a ride across town I usually try to get at least $40 when it would be more like 15-20 dollars in a regular cab. The whole thing is that I'm alot more fun, speak great english, make good conversation and will take you directly to your destination as it is my physical best interest to take the shortest route.

I had never seen the stokemonkey setup before, and I think you are spot on with the idea of sending that to the rear axle via belt drive. It's a shame though that there isn't something like an inverse hub motor where the casing would mount to the frame and it would spin the axle in the center. it would make for a very simple clean drive method for pedicabs and other trikes.

Definitely have some type of radio/CD-player. Not only will customers like that, it will explain why you have a battery on-board if someone looks under the skirt. Also a radio will cover up any noise the "near-silent" direct-drive hub would make.
I would place the battery/controller/motor under the customers seat. I like the separate trailer. I agree with LFP on silent. If you have a hidden 408-ish hub attached to the axle by a chain, and anyone asks, just say its a generator so that on the downhills it charges up your batteries for the lights

I agree whole heartedly, the cabs we use have no stereo so I have a small one I affix to the back of my seatpost with some alabama chrome and have a cable run up to my handlebars where my iphone resides. I used to get tons of people asking me why we didn't have music and my boss wouldn't do anything so I had to take matters into my own hands. The little stereo I use though is a bit underpowered and can't really overcome the traffic noise especially when there are a bunch of buses and tour rides around. I also have a set of RGB LEDs on order to make some ground effects for working the late night bar scene. I got the idea from these party buses that roll around at night with all kinds of lights and music. I figured I could do the same thing on a small scale, just use nyodium magnets to affix the strips to the frame on the underside of the whichever cab I happen to be riding on that night.

I think the way to go will be to build it up like a mix between the first and the third cab I pictured. The trailers are nice and allow for more carrying capacity but then you also need to build up a really burly MTN bike to use as well. The bikes we used were front suspension with avid juicy hydraulic disk brakes, you need to have a solid bike capable of handling that kind of duty. Plus the traditional pedicabs just look a bit more professional and I think with a few tweaks can be made to seat three comfortably which opens it up for at least two more riding on laps for the really fun rides sometimes I sweeten the pot for the customers by letting them know I can hit every bump on the way when the ladies are riding on laps.

Icewrench

the riders in sea town are using electrics? awesome! I lived in capitol hill for 8 years, used to work for kozmo.com. I cant imagine working seattle though, it's so frikin hilly, I can see why they would volt up. The way up from pike street from the water to broadway makes the hills here in boston look like bumps. BTW did you hear about that pedicab fatality I think it was last summer? I believe they were going down hill towards the waterfront and the brakes failed. I thought for sure they were going to outlaw pedicabs after that but I'm glad they didn't. Between cities heavily regulating and the safety issues pedicabs have an uphill battle to try and make some changes in the way of transportation solutions.

 

[Icewrench]

Only a few cabs here are using juice. A friend rides cab so I`ve actually looked at a few of these things. Most cabs are only pedal power.
That crash was at the bottom of one of the steep hills along the water front. Most cabs have added a band brake around the rear axle since then.
Here is a link to a write up of that accident http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/archives/145457.asp

 

[Lock]

Hehe... "Alabama chrome"... had to look that one up :lol:

... Part of me likes the bike as a separate unit with passenger seats as a separate cart... ya can have/use the bike when not for hire... But I suspect a single unit with bike as part of the frame would be a stronger and safer design. I did borrow a trike two winters ago that had the two wheels in front and a *front* passenger seat, with rider in the back. This design makes it easier for passengers to climb in and out of. It also means they are not staring at the drivers butt the whole trip, and it gets them out of the drivers fart zone as well... The trike I borrowed didn't have front wheels that steered but the vehicle was hinged in the middle so the rider steered by twisting the front left/right. This steering worked really badly, but I figure this was just a matter of steering geometry and the thing wasn't well designed - it was a home-built. I have seen other similar commercial designs for cargo/wattever that I assume are better mannered.

I hate those plastic bubble pedicabs... Heavy chineesy-things... The ones in Toronto have front hubs and SLAs in the back last time I checked. Their business model is a bit different as the rides are free but the vehicles are "wrapped" with advertizing (revenues.) Riders are simply salaried (with tips I guess.)

Guess you saw this thread about the Toronto electrics:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3971#p58676

OTOH I think the "classic" style with a fold-down canvas etc top waaaayyy more stylish...

Found this blog about pedicabs:
http://www.pedicabblog.com/

...and this pic from September 2009 of one of the seattle pedicabs:


Just don't like these designs with passenger compartment as plastic/wood/metal "bucket", versus something lighter as bicycle frame w/canvas etc laced on plus cushions w/washable covers...

With a heavy trike design I'd be looking at two hubs for better braking via regen... It's heavier vehicles usually that see a better payback with regen. If ya need to disguise the hubs I've seen taxi cabs (cars) locally with wheel covers that have advertising on them and remain upright while the cars are moving...

G'Luck

ps... Oh yah, and this thread about "dodgy rickshaws" getting attacked by London UK police in 2008:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7906&start=0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMc-BGBCSDw
[youtube]LMc-BGBCSDw[/youtube]

 

[spinningmagnets]

Most E-bikes with regen have to set it on low, so as to not lock up the wheel with its small rubber-to-road patch.

Heavier vehicles with fatter tires (such as E-scooters) use regen often, though the main benefit seems to be that the brakes don't get hot and they last much longer.

 

[gestalt]

Exactly!!!
Maintaining brakes on the cabs is a beeeotch and frictionless regen can kill two birds with one stone, maybe even more.

 

[gestalt]

Lock,

It's funny actually, we didn't have ads at all last year but the rides are free so to speak. The hackney department that governs over our company has made it so we have to be a "tips only" service, we are not allowed to quote any price. But there are plenty of ways to suggest a price so that all and all I get at least ten dollars for rides all night when I only go about four blocks.

 

[Lock]

...plenty of ways to suggest a price...

And of course when you mention how yer Mum needs that operation... :wink:
Not sure if that "hackney dept" is a City body but I guess adverts can get pretty "ugly" pretty fast... The wheel covers I saw didn't look too garish though... Hard to believe they are passing up this potential revenue stream.
LoCk

 

[gestalt]

oh, we have ads now. danvers bank actually, and the boss man gets $400 per cab, per month. I like running ad less myself, but I don't blame him for doing it. I just think ads are usually pretty ugly.