Nimbuzz
1 kW
Mr R, Why not put the pack in front of theseat tube?
The EV Tech 37V LiPoly pack review and discussion
- Thread starter Reid Welch
- Start date
Reid Welch
1 MW
Hey guys, see,
wide-ways fouls the pedals. And it won't look neat even if it cleared the pedals.
I'm shooting for good looks. Sideways is a clunk job as you can now see by the new picture.
Larry, I could put it in front of the seat post, sure, but that will be more work to fabricate a solid mounting than to exploit the existing space.
And again, the pack will look best if placed behind in the original place, integrated to the frame.
It will not be removable either, not easily, not by the casual meddler who might think,
"Nice! A LiPo pack with quick release."
It won't be QR at all.
Thanks,
Reid
wide-ways fouls the pedals. And it won't look neat even if it cleared the pedals.
I'm shooting for good looks. Sideways is a clunk job as you can now see by the new picture.
Larry, I could put it in front of the seat post, sure, but that will be more work to fabricate a solid mounting than to exploit the existing space.
And again, the pack will look best if placed behind in the original place, integrated to the frame.
It will not be removable either, not easily, not by the casual meddler who might think,
"Nice! A LiPo pack with quick release."
It won't be QR at all.
Thanks,
Reid
Stevil_Knevil
10 kW
Hey Reid,
I think that your plan to slice the top cross tube width-wise will work just fine. What will be left is going to be plenty strong after the rear battery support is re-welded in place (brazing is stronger and prettier).
Let's see..
.. I would cut the cross tube down (front to rear, on either side of the battery support) to the depth required for pack clearance, matching the vertical angle of the support, using a hacksaw with a 32T blade.
Then I would draw a line width-wise connecting the ends of the cuts, top and bottom, and slice the tube using an angle grinder with a cut-off disc.
Once the support is free, you can grind off the unneeded section of tubing and anything else that does not belong.
Sorry, I don't know how to illustrate this for you in photoshop or I would have.
-S
Edited for clarity. Words alone can be clunky and imprecise.
I think that your plan to slice the top cross tube width-wise will work just fine. What will be left is going to be plenty strong after the rear battery support is re-welded in place (brazing is stronger and prettier).
Let's see..
.. I would cut the cross tube down (front to rear, on either side of the battery support) to the depth required for pack clearance, matching the vertical angle of the support, using a hacksaw with a 32T blade.
Then I would draw a line width-wise connecting the ends of the cuts, top and bottom, and slice the tube using an angle grinder with a cut-off disc.
Once the support is free, you can grind off the unneeded section of tubing and anything else that does not belong.
Sorry, I don't know how to illustrate this for you in photoshop or I would have.
-S
Edited for clarity. Words alone can be clunky and imprecise.
EbikeMaui
1 kW
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 447
Nice set up with them running narrow to the length of the bike <@--@< And a removable clip in rack for the front and back of the yube for the TWO pack option.Hey I saw the NEW bionix Lithium bike and rode it today.In 3 weeks Im riding the Lithium Optibake.Reid Welch said:Hey guys, see,
wide-ways fouls the pedals. And it won't look neat even if it cleared the pedals.
I'm shooting for good looks. Sideways is a clunk job as you can now see by the new picture.
Larry, I could put it in front of the seat post, sure, but that will be more work to fabricate a solid mounting than to exploit the existing space.
And again, the pack will look best if placed behind in the original place, integrated to the frame.
It will not be removable either, not easily, not by the casual meddler who might think,
"Nice! A LiPo pack with quick release."
It won't be QR at all.
Thanks,
Reid
Hey! what did you do with the BMS board? I noticed you found the rattle and externalized it somehow? A close up of both sides of the BMS would be nice...
Doug is certainly making some headway.. But I know you can buy a few like these packs for less than half the price including freight by getting them direct.Then they may be a fair deal if indeed they made it 200 cycles or before splitting the seems of the thick aliminum foil housing from the cells swelling up.(That would be if used too much at over 1C discharge rates) But Hey! where else can you get them for ebikes and through a US dealer that will do what he can to try to get these out to a new market of Lithium ebikes for cheaper than Binox offers for packs that also still fail.. In this new market a lot more testing needs to be done. THANK YOU! Looking foward to your cycling results. I know you will LOVE em. Be sure to start with checking the voltage of each cell after each charge.If any cells are below 4.0 volts after a 10 min rest after the charge you may try a $30. RC charger to top off the lower voltage cells and keep an eye on them to see if the BMS keeps ALL of the cells in balance.Defective cells will show up fast and get worse fast putting strain on the other cells AND the BMS.Rather than wasting time with a bad cell it's best to return in after 4 cycles IF you do not see a improvment on the cells coming up to spec resting voltage after the charge.UNLESS a couple cycles are done by your dealer just bebore he ships them out ?? You are the tester and one cell can RUIN your test results rather fast or in 100 cycles.The FIRST TEST is to see how out of wack the cells are from sitting in storage, lack of quality control,lack of matching or testing for relibality (long term or short)? Remember Richard? His batteries probably worked perfectly untill Richard and his 60 amp sucking WaveCrust ABUSED them. LoL
Good Luck! it really is a dice throw till a product survives a year with many happy users.At $1200 a pop for the Binox lithium packs that are having problems Dougs packs are a deal! But Bonox has a 1 year waranty for what that's worth. ?
Reid Welch
1 MW
Stevil_Knevil said:
Surely, here you go,
The container is welded-shut plastic. No interior shot possible, sorry.
The front is featureless other than a green-to-red LED window
______________________________
I spoke to Doug Canfield this evening.
I'll recap this posting later on with some comments.
Reid Welch
1 MW
Hello Randy and Stevil. Thank you both for positive energy expressed on the prior page.
Here's a repeat of the pack pictures for the head of this new page.
My reply to your comments follows the pictures
reposts:
it fits with with the BMS panel removed
Replies to page two:
Yes, surely the packs could cost me half if I ordered them direct from China in wholesale quantity and became a dealer like EV Tech, if I wanted to assume all the liability and warranty responsibilty and sales and distribution tasks....
were I to do this as a pro bono service, without profit,
because I did not have to work for a living,
yes, I guess the packs could cost the end user a little under five bills apiece.
I look at the Velectris generic 10Ah and 13Ah pack sold in the EU.
http://www.velectris.com/catalog/liion-36v13ah-battery-p-71.html?osCsid=cf38f411cdd663d7b922a99a7155dc77
screenshot--not active
____________________________________
It is surely good but it does not come in a neat, paintable metal box.
Import direct to cut costs? I don't want to get into even a co-op business. Who does?
I just want one pack at an affordable price. Maybe another later on for parallel operation
The pack will surely last well for hundreds of cycles unless it is defective;
other users have reported long, hard usage of the pack without it going bad.
I'll find such a user report and quote it here for you, Randy.
I'll be documenting the life of this pack as time goes by.
The packs are obviously hand made entirely, and the notions of whoever puts them together in far off, inscrutable China, can subvert the best plans of EV Tech.
This pack is very fresh. It's one of a parcel of twelve that just came in a couple of weeks ago.
It would appear to me here, that they are no longer potting the cells inside the thin aluminum case with wax.
The box is thin, but not too thin, for an evident purpose: Thick enough to provide mechanical support. Thin enough to distort, swell, if cells were ever to puff due to over-discharge or internal short.
Doug has destruct-tested fully charged cells by direct shorting across the terminals with a bus bar. Result: No puffing, no venting, no fire.
That means he's confident that his maker has a similar handle on the recipe as does Kokam with their own much-vaunted $$$ safe cells.
We'll see. I like the aluminum box. It's solid but it won't make a bomb container if by any fluke of bad circumstance the cells were to vent.
I'll inject a bit of foaming Gorilla Glue into the grommet holes of the main box soon, to immobilize the drifting pack inside. No more thunk then.
The BMS is underneath a tack welded cover. I'd love to see it in person,
but I can't without popping those welds. I don't think I should disturb it at this time, curious though I am to see it. Maybe later I'll change my mind.
Curiosity won't kill the cat.
Thanks for cutting tips, Steve. I'll probably start cutting tonight.
I know just what of the present support I shall leave alone, to make the thing nest into a notch.
Sort of hard to explain in words, as you yourself noted above.
Thanks for good thoughts. The more we use LiPo and other lithium chemistries, the sooner the prices come down for all, and the sooner mass-produced high QC packs will be available.
As these things go, this high-tech pack is still in the birthing stages;
I mean, it's hand made yet. Imagine how slick they will be in a few years when the market has developed and production really ramps up.
The Chinese market will someday run entirely on other-than-lead batteries.
At this time it's only the matters of costs and supply kinks, quality controls
and doubts about who will go first to commit to make, commit to buy;
that sort of thing, holding everyone back, in one way or the other
--but not for long.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Here's a repeat of the pack pictures for the head of this new page.
My reply to your comments follows the pictures
reposts:
it fits with with the BMS panel removed
Replies to page two:
Yes, surely the packs could cost me half if I ordered them direct from China in wholesale quantity and became a dealer like EV Tech, if I wanted to assume all the liability and warranty responsibilty and sales and distribution tasks....
were I to do this as a pro bono service, without profit,
because I did not have to work for a living,
yes, I guess the packs could cost the end user a little under five bills apiece.
I look at the Velectris generic 10Ah and 13Ah pack sold in the EU.
http://www.velectris.com/catalog/liion-36v13ah-battery-p-71.html?osCsid=cf38f411cdd663d7b922a99a7155dc77
screenshot--not active
____________________________________
It is surely good but it does not come in a neat, paintable metal box.
Import direct to cut costs? I don't want to get into even a co-op business. Who does?
I just want one pack at an affordable price. Maybe another later on for parallel operation
The pack will surely last well for hundreds of cycles unless it is defective;
other users have reported long, hard usage of the pack without it going bad.
I'll find such a user report and quote it here for you, Randy.
I'll be documenting the life of this pack as time goes by.
The packs are obviously hand made entirely, and the notions of whoever puts them together in far off, inscrutable China, can subvert the best plans of EV Tech.
This pack is very fresh. It's one of a parcel of twelve that just came in a couple of weeks ago.
It would appear to me here, that they are no longer potting the cells inside the thin aluminum case with wax.
The box is thin, but not too thin, for an evident purpose: Thick enough to provide mechanical support. Thin enough to distort, swell, if cells were ever to puff due to over-discharge or internal short.
Doug has destruct-tested fully charged cells by direct shorting across the terminals with a bus bar. Result: No puffing, no venting, no fire.
That means he's confident that his maker has a similar handle on the recipe as does Kokam with their own much-vaunted $$$ safe cells.
We'll see. I like the aluminum box. It's solid but it won't make a bomb container if by any fluke of bad circumstance the cells were to vent.
I'll inject a bit of foaming Gorilla Glue into the grommet holes of the main box soon, to immobilize the drifting pack inside. No more thunk then.
The BMS is underneath a tack welded cover. I'd love to see it in person,
but I can't without popping those welds. I don't think I should disturb it at this time, curious though I am to see it. Maybe later I'll change my mind.
Curiosity won't kill the cat.
Thanks for cutting tips, Steve. I'll probably start cutting tonight.
I know just what of the present support I shall leave alone, to make the thing nest into a notch.
Sort of hard to explain in words, as you yourself noted above.
Thanks for good thoughts. The more we use LiPo and other lithium chemistries, the sooner the prices come down for all, and the sooner mass-produced high QC packs will be available.
As these things go, this high-tech pack is still in the birthing stages;
I mean, it's hand made yet. Imagine how slick they will be in a few years when the market has developed and production really ramps up.
The Chinese market will someday run entirely on other-than-lead batteries.
At this time it's only the matters of costs and supply kinks, quality controls
and doubts about who will go first to commit to make, commit to buy;
that sort of thing, holding everyone back, in one way or the other
--but not for long.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Reid Welch
1 MW
EbikeMaui said:
Reid Welch
1 MW
Thanks Randy. Appreciate the favor here.
Stevil_Knevil
10 kW
For all of his annoying tendencies, Randy does bring up good points from time to time.
Keep working on those skills, Randy! You are becoming bearable.
-S
Keep working on those skills, Randy! You are becoming bearable.
-S
Reid Welch
1 MW
edit: cleared, no tech content lost.
Randy
Can you please take some nice close up pictures of the LIPO packs that you use on your bike and post them on here also with details of where you got them from and how much they cost you with the chargers, shipping etc.
Thanks
Knoxie
Can you please take some nice close up pictures of the LIPO packs that you use on your bike and post them on here also with details of where you got them from and how much they cost you with the chargers, shipping etc.
Thanks
Knoxie
Yo
Dont pry open the BMS box to see the BMS, here it is in all its glory!!
This is a spanking new one. Notice how they grind the fet numbers off he he, hmm I wonder what fets they are :lol:
Apologies for the macro on this camera, its works camera and it isn't very good at close ups.
Knoxie
Dont pry open the BMS box to see the BMS, here it is in all its glory!!
This is a spanking new one. Notice how they grind the fet numbers off he he, hmm I wonder what fets they are :lol:
Apologies for the macro on this camera, its works camera and it isn't very good at close ups.
Knoxie
Attachments
Reid Welch
1 MW
I need a maniac smiley...because, hell, mate, you can't stop me.
I have macro and I can focus, but mostly, I want to be very very sure there's nothing in there that'll ever short out or go adrift.
I'm gonna pop it open. Not today, but before running the pack.
Doug Canfield can't
stop me.
--------
cheers, and thanking Paul for the pictures and for encouraging me to pop it open.
Curious, because the paper lable on yours states cutoff is 2.9V and not the EV Tech-spec'd 3.3V.... hummm.
This means only one thing to me:
Banzaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
I have macro and I can focus, but mostly, I want to be very very sure there's nothing in there that'll ever short out or go adrift.
I'm gonna pop it open. Not today, but before running the pack.
Doug Canfield can't
stop me.
--------
cheers, and thanking Paul for the pictures and for encouraging me to pop it open.
Curious, because the paper lable on yours states cutoff is 2.9V and not the EV Tech-spec'd 3.3V.... hummm.
This means only one thing to me:
Banzaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
It seems really odd they would rub off the numbers on the FETs 
Unfortunately, the pictures are not clear enough to read any of the other numbers. What are the transistor looking thingies next to the big resistors? (number).
From looking at the pictures, the following can be deduced:
The BMS can balance during charge, but not during discharge.
It can monitor individual cell voltages during both charge and discharge. I assume it can interrupt the circuit if any cell gets out of the acceptable range.
It monitors charging and discharging current and can interrupt the circuit if the current goes too high.
If the charging current is too high, it might have a hard time balancing due to limitations of the resistors.
Unfortunately, the pictures are not clear enough to read any of the other numbers. What are the transistor looking thingies next to the big resistors? (number).
From looking at the pictures, the following can be deduced:
The BMS can balance during charge, but not during discharge.
It can monitor individual cell voltages during both charge and discharge. I assume it can interrupt the circuit if any cell gets out of the acceptable range.
It monitors charging and discharging current and can interrupt the circuit if the current goes too high.
If the charging current is too high, it might have a hard time balancing due to limitations of the resistors.
deerfencer
100 mW
<<So--OK, now it's clear: Larry meant (surely meant) switchback trails,
not literal stair steps. >>
Sorry for all the confusion, folks. I use the term "stairstep climb" to describe a long extended (road) climb that alternates between steep sections (the vertical part of a step) and flats or minor grades (the horizontal part of a step) between those steeper stretches. My favorite ride out the door is just such a climb, and goes on for five miles from bottom to top. It is by no means all uphill as there are flats and even some minor downgrades between the climbs. Nevertheless, on a road bike it is a major chore, and probably a ride most of us couldn't manage an average speed of much more than 10 mph on manually.
My Tidalforce S750X with a double lipo pack usually does this climb between 22-23 mph average speed with vigorous pedal assist. I still get a great workout without going anaerobic. With a 1" high-pressure slick racing tire (Conti Grand Prix), I have done this climb at 24 mph average.
On a long gradual hill I can usually maintain 18-20 mph up the majority of it, dropping down to perhaps 16 mph at the top. One very short very steep hill I hit early on can usually be topped at 12-14 mph with a fresh battery and strong pedal assist. I am no lightweight @ 230 and with bike and battery packs you're talking about moving well over 300 lbs up the road.
Separately, I have another favorite rolling hills ride I occasionally do that is more of a pure speed/ time trial type run. Again, the clocked section I ride is about 5 miles and the fastest I've ever done it on a road bike is 23 mph with a stiff tailwind. Best time on my S750X last summer on these same lipos was an amazing (I thought) 34.5 mph, again with a good tailwind. I have ridden those routes dozens of times, and documented my speeds on different tires/wheels/batteries/ etc.
Some conclusions I reached last season:
1) a thin fast front tire can add 10% to your average speed, possibly more, depending on your aerodynamics.
2) Doug's lipos exhibit far less voltage sag, especially run in parallel, than
my old single NIMH packs (2-3V vs 6-8V). Running voltages are about 10-15% higher; ergo more power and significantly higher speeds.
Sorry if I've rambled a bit off-topic here, but the bottom line is that I've been riding these lipos for probably 3000 miles since last May with consistently good results. No swollen cells or melted wax that I can see, and the two packs always seem in balance when I test them with a meter at the end of each ride.
The only problem I've started to see is that occasionally they don't want to charge up to their original benchmark, which was 41.4V Instead, they often top out around 40.7V or so. Mysteriously, sometimes I can get them to charge higher by unplugging the packs and recharging, but this is not always the case--often they stubbornly stay pegged at that lower voltage. So perhaps I've started to lose a bit of capacity after a year's use--something tells me this is to be expected.
The bottom line for me is that these packs continue to do what I originally hoped they'd do, which is give me an hour's worth of high speed assist fun with virtually no fuss. I tend to use them hardest on climbs where I lock in the cruise control at a high speed so that I can forget about the throttle and focus on shifting and pedalling. I usually try to give them a breather--and a bit of regen--on the descents.
Oh, and I've been merciless as far as allowing regen power back into the pack at high speeds. One hill I often descend is a monster grade that I hit close to 50 mph on at the bottom in full regeneration mode. Can't recall what the maximum amperage limits on the Wavecrest system are in regen mode, but I believe Doug once posted that he had seen as high as 15A. Granted this is only for a few brief seconds, but I still think it's testament to the robustness of this pack that it continues to perform as well as it does after nearly a year of high speed service. Running the two 15Ah packs in parallel from day one is probably the best thing I've done, and I plan to continue running all my future packs this way as it seems to solve a myriad of problems.
Larry Hayes
not literal stair steps. >>
Sorry for all the confusion, folks. I use the term "stairstep climb" to describe a long extended (road) climb that alternates between steep sections (the vertical part of a step) and flats or minor grades (the horizontal part of a step) between those steeper stretches. My favorite ride out the door is just such a climb, and goes on for five miles from bottom to top. It is by no means all uphill as there are flats and even some minor downgrades between the climbs. Nevertheless, on a road bike it is a major chore, and probably a ride most of us couldn't manage an average speed of much more than 10 mph on manually.
My Tidalforce S750X with a double lipo pack usually does this climb between 22-23 mph average speed with vigorous pedal assist. I still get a great workout without going anaerobic. With a 1" high-pressure slick racing tire (Conti Grand Prix), I have done this climb at 24 mph average.
On a long gradual hill I can usually maintain 18-20 mph up the majority of it, dropping down to perhaps 16 mph at the top. One very short very steep hill I hit early on can usually be topped at 12-14 mph with a fresh battery and strong pedal assist. I am no lightweight @ 230 and with bike and battery packs you're talking about moving well over 300 lbs up the road.
Separately, I have another favorite rolling hills ride I occasionally do that is more of a pure speed/ time trial type run. Again, the clocked section I ride is about 5 miles and the fastest I've ever done it on a road bike is 23 mph with a stiff tailwind. Best time on my S750X last summer on these same lipos was an amazing (I thought) 34.5 mph, again with a good tailwind. I have ridden those routes dozens of times, and documented my speeds on different tires/wheels/batteries/ etc.
Some conclusions I reached last season:
1) a thin fast front tire can add 10% to your average speed, possibly more, depending on your aerodynamics.
2) Doug's lipos exhibit far less voltage sag, especially run in parallel, than
my old single NIMH packs (2-3V vs 6-8V). Running voltages are about 10-15% higher; ergo more power and significantly higher speeds.
Sorry if I've rambled a bit off-topic here, but the bottom line is that I've been riding these lipos for probably 3000 miles since last May with consistently good results. No swollen cells or melted wax that I can see, and the two packs always seem in balance when I test them with a meter at the end of each ride.
The only problem I've started to see is that occasionally they don't want to charge up to their original benchmark, which was 41.4V Instead, they often top out around 40.7V or so. Mysteriously, sometimes I can get them to charge higher by unplugging the packs and recharging, but this is not always the case--often they stubbornly stay pegged at that lower voltage. So perhaps I've started to lose a bit of capacity after a year's use--something tells me this is to be expected.
The bottom line for me is that these packs continue to do what I originally hoped they'd do, which is give me an hour's worth of high speed assist fun with virtually no fuss. I tend to use them hardest on climbs where I lock in the cruise control at a high speed so that I can forget about the throttle and focus on shifting and pedalling. I usually try to give them a breather--and a bit of regen--on the descents.
Oh, and I've been merciless as far as allowing regen power back into the pack at high speeds. One hill I often descend is a monster grade that I hit close to 50 mph on at the bottom in full regeneration mode. Can't recall what the maximum amperage limits on the Wavecrest system are in regen mode, but I believe Doug once posted that he had seen as high as 15A. Granted this is only for a few brief seconds, but I still think it's testament to the robustness of this pack that it continues to perform as well as it does after nearly a year of high speed service. Running the two 15Ah packs in parallel from day one is probably the best thing I've done, and I plan to continue running all my future packs this way as it seems to solve a myriad of problems.
Larry Hayes
Hello Randy
Be nice if you could just post up the pictures of your packs nice and close with details of where you got them from and how much etc etc, everybody on here is being completely transparent with all this and you are happily getting involved (which is a good thing) I think it is only fair that as you have raised criticism's that you show everyone what packs you are using?
Cmon Randy don't be shy now!
Knoxie
Be nice if you could just post up the pictures of your packs nice and close with details of where you got them from and how much etc etc, everybody on here is being completely transparent with all this and you are happily getting involved (which is a good thing) I think it is only fair that as you have raised criticism's that you show everyone what packs you are using?
Cmon Randy don't be shy now!
Knoxie
TylerDurden
100 GW
oops, link dont work?
Reid Welch
1 MW
Thanks Randy.
Similar threads
