The perfect ebike motor!?

[MitchJi]

Hi David,

Any progress?

It might be a good idea to make the mounting points compatible with the Astroflight 3210. That way one of Matt's drives could be used with either your motor or the Astroflight (give the Astroflight buyers an upgrade path ).

Would you mind posting a picture of the windings of one of your motors? I'm curious what high quality windings look like compared to the HXT:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=9279

Quality of HXT motor

 

[nieles]

i have one of the "SK" motors from turnigy..

the windings are a bit better than the normal turnigy but still not super.

also triple bearings on the end of the motor

 

[liveforphysics]

Until David releases his super awesome motors, you guys know that you are free to buy a roll of magnet wire and wind your own motors if you don't like how HXT did them. The wire is very cheap, and while it seems like a lot of work, it really only takes an hour or two to do. You can find a hundred good pages and winding styles and diagrams on how to do it from various RC hobby sites.

 

[Miles]

No sign of slackness on David's windings

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Miles,

No sign of slackness on David's windings

Thanks for the photo.

Excellent build quality on the housing.

It looks like David uses thicker wires than the HXT and Turnigy. What are the implications of thicker wire windings?

Are you pleased with the performance?

Thanks!

Mitch

 

[Miles]

It looks like David uses thicker wires than the HXT and Turnigy. What are the implications of thicker wire windings?

Are you pleased with the performance?
[/size]

Hi Mitch,

Bear in mind that this is a smaller motor (40mm stator). I've no idea how the gauges compare.

The thickness of the wire isn't, in itself, significant. The number of turns determines the voltage/torque constant (for a specific motor). The gauge is then selected to maximise copper fill (least resistance/greatest efficiency) - either for single-strand or multi-strand.

I haven't tested the motor yet. I'm sure I will be pleased, though

 

[CNCAddict]

Sorry for the lack of updates guys. Money is slow right now which has slowed me down a lot, but here is a teaser of Tony Owens "misskimo" on the rc heli forums riding my scooter. The Setup is below..and I think he gets to around 46mph in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFJbjDZkPRQ&feature=player_embedded (watch in HQ)

Xera 8060/2y 200rpm/v motor (~5lb weight)
14s3p old and busted A123's
Jeti Spin 200 ESC

 

[Joepostal]

awesome ssssssszzzzoooommmmwwweeeeee

 

[swbluto]

Sorry for the lack of updates guys. Money is slow right now which has slowed me down a lot, but here is a teaser of Tony Owens "misskimo" on the rc heli forums riding my scooter. The Setup is below..and I think he gets to around 46mph in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFJbjDZkPRQ&feature=player_embedded (watch in HQ)

Xera 8060/2y 200rpm/v motor (~5lb weight)
14s3p old and busted A123's
Jeti Spin 200 ESC

Sveet, munn! What scooter did you upgrade from? It looks like it has 12" wheels.

 

[CNCAddict]

It's the HCF-707. Really easy conversion with the belt drive. I just made a motor adapter plate....and any old motor bolts right up. This scooter is really a handful above 30mph though...and leaning almost all the way over the front is pretty mandatory

 

[swbluto]

Lucky dog! I felt like I scoured the country for that scooter about 6 months ago! When did you get it?

Yeah, anyways, I think the way that changing motor mounts on a panel of some sort is definitely one of THE WAYS to go with e-bikes. If only people on the forums had experienced this before, then they'd understand the awesomeness of it (I did the same with my Viza Volt scooter, and I made the mount out of Oak 'cuz I'm cheap.). I'm trying to suggest adding a panel of some sort to Hal's frame to make mounting a motor much easier.

 

[GGoodrum]

Sorry for the lack of updates guys. Money is slow right now which has slowed me down a lot, but here is a teaser of Tony Owens "misskimo" on the rc heli forums riding my scooter. The Setup is below..and I think he gets to around 46mph in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFJbjDZkPRQ&feature=player_embedded (watch in HQ)

Xera 8060/2y 200rpm/v motor (~5lb weight)
14s3p old and busted A123's
Jeti Spin 200 ESC

OMG, Tony Owens?? How is that crazy Alaskan?? I've got MORE than a few crazy Tony stories. He is one nutty guy, and just about impossible to understand. He's half Eskimo, and half Mississippi hillbilly. Quite a combo! Impossible to understand on the phone, though.

-- Gary

 

[paultrafalgar]

...
Switching issues aside, if you setup the gearing, etc., so that you get the lowend performance you want with a "normal" wye-configured motor, being able to switch it to a delta configuration would be exactly like having an "overdrive" that gives you 1.73 x more speed, at the same voltage. With my existing Cyclone setup, which uses a Nexus 3-speed hub, if I start out in 3rd, the motor groans and maxes out the current, and will slowly start to go faster. Once I'm at the top speed (a bit over 30 mph...), or close to it, the motor is quite happy, and draws a lot less current. If I start in 1st gear, it has almost too much low-end torque, and will just about flip me off the backend, but the top speed is only 18 mph. The difference in the ratios between 1st and 3rd is 1.86, not much more than the 1.73 ratio difference between the wye and delta configurations. My point is that we don't need much, in terms of a "gearing" change to widen the torque range enough for the motors setups we've all been playing with.

There's always tradeoffs, but in a most cases there are one or two factors that are less flexible. Because of costs, etc., pack voltage and current are usually the first limits you run into. Generally, you top speed is going to be limited by the pack voltage, and lowend torque will be limited by the max current that can be supplied. Given those kinds of limitations, it is just about impossible to have one motor/gearing setup that can do both. Driving through the crank, in order to use the existing gearing, is one solution, but again there's tradoffs. It usually means you end up screwing up the "stock" pedal ratios. Anyway, a direct drive solution is usually the least complex, but without a two-speed transmission, you have the same problem. You can optimise for lowend torque or for top speed, but not both. A switchable wye-delta configuration would be all that is needed, if it can be done properly.

-- Gary

Has anyone thought of overcoming this dilemma by going for 2 (hub) motors, the front being wye and the back being delta (or vice versa)? You then have no complex electronic switchover between the delta and wye (giant contactors etc). There is still the issue of how to switch between the two, but that could even be manual perhaps. What do you think?

 

[recumpence]

Sorry for the lack of updates guys. Money is slow right now which has slowed me down a lot, but here is a teaser of Tony Owens "misskimo" on the rc heli forums riding my scooter. The Setup is below..and I think he gets to around 46mph in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFJbjDZkPRQ&feature=player_embedded (watch in HQ)

Xera 8060/2y 200rpm/v motor (~5lb weight)
14s3p old and busted A123's
Jeti Spin 200 ESC

OMG, Tony Owens?? How is that crazy Alaskan?? I've got MORE than a few crazy Tony stories. He is one nutty guy, and just about impossible to understand. He's half Eskimo, and half Mississippi hillbilly. Quite a combo! Impossible to understand on the phone, though.

-- Gary

Wow, no kidding! He is the only person I have ever spoken to that can weave so many four letter words into a conversation while remaining one of the nicest guys you will ever talk to.

Great to hear his name!

Matt

 

[misskimo]

Well Dang, theres a few fellows I havent seen in a while, I think my good ole buddy got me hooked on this hobby with 2 wheeels, his Motors ROCK! Gary! WOW! long time no here. hows it going? Matt! another WOW! I can say David is an all around straight up guy that knows his sheet! Im running his motor in a bad azz Joker 3DD that has more power than the ole actro. got a heli coming that I had alittle input in , but trully designed by him , well its a trex 700 nitro conversion kit, but 2 stage helical gear setup. well I better stay on topic here. riding that scooter was a blast. he told me to put my head right over the frunt wheel and slowly give the throttle . I would have nailed it, if he had a wheely bar on the back and a slick on the real wheel. But I had to take it easy . I had a blast , I have a few more videos I will post on youtube. great to here from yall.

T

 

[liveforphysics]

Tell David to sell me a pair of those motors for my E-bike!

 

[recumpence]

Well Dang, theres a few fellows I havent seen in a while, I think my good ole buddy got me hooked on this hobby with 2 wheeels, his Motors ROCK! Gary! WOW! long time no here. hows it going? Matt! another WOW! I can say David is an all around straight up guy that knows his sheet! Im running his motor in a bad azz Joker 3DD that has more power than the ole actro. got a heli coming that I had alittle input in , but trully designed by him , well its a trex 700 nitro conversion kit, but 2 stage helical gear setup. well I better stay on topic here. riding that scooter was a blast. he told me to put my head right over the frunt wheel and slowly give the throttle . I would have nailed it, if he had a wheely bar on the back and a slick on the real wheel. But I had to take it easy . I had a blast , I have a few more videos I will post on youtube. great to here from yall.

T

Good ot have you here, Tony. :wink:

You will get bit by the bug, trust me!

Matt

 

[misskimo]

hey! YEH! it looks that way, heres another video I posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHRFu9ShKp8

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I'm posting in this thread because I'd some expert opinions. David Luke and Miles for example.

Would a motor like this be a better Ebike motor than current RC motor state of the art?:

New Electric Motor is 50% Smaller but has 2x More Torque

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12923

How would it compare if one were build with a similar size and weight to David's prototype or an Astro 3210 or 3220?

Would a motor with similar performance have a much lower kv (20kv would be awesome)?

Any chance of David or Astroflight or another RC manufacturer producing one?

 

[CNCAddict]

This design is not really new. However, there is a chance to reduce no load losses by using a 2 airgap design, and a segmented stator can lower the resistance as well. That said, a standard internal rotor motor is hard to beat in simplicity, reliability, and cooling. There might be some small advances in motor performance, but the real innovations need to come in electronics and batteries.

 

[blisspacket]

This is a great forum, and I pick on the wizards in this thread with an interruption: for trolling motors we have WalMart quality dc brushed motors with a few models offering pwm control. Germany or Austria will sell us for $1600 or so some finely engineered outrunners. They are at: http://www.torqeedo.com/us/hn/background-knowledge/motor-and-power-electronics.html
Here's the question: are there stock RC hi-tech motors out there that could run at 20-30 amps, 24 volts, and spin a large prop such as the Torqeedo has so we fishermen and yakers can maximize our time on the water--AND could we have such a setup for $5-600???

 

[Grinhill]

You would probably find the same problem as they did, that the RC motors spin too fast. They geared theirs down by 14:1. If you did the same thing with a similar sized hobbycity motor, you would end up with a similar setup. But, as you will see if you look around this forum, gearing down is never easy.

 

[TylerDurden]

Here's the question: are there stock RC hi-tech motors out there that could run at 20-30 amps, 24 volts, and spin a large prop such as the Torqeedo has so we fishermen and yakers can maximize our time on the water--AND could we have such a setup for $5-600???

Jeremy Harris seems to be pursuing something like this...

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/efficient-electric-boat-27996-14.html

 

[jmygann]

Any info or has anyone tried this motor ? ....

http://tinyurl.com/yeprgrz

 

[MitchJi]

Fully enclosed so as not to fill the motor with ferrite as I drive up & down my dirt road.
(that is a concern regarding an outrunner) & the Astro products are very pricy for the majority of the folk I see utilizing a "non-hub" power assisted bicycle.

I don't think its realistic to expect David to produce a motor that is superior to the Astro's for a significantly lower price.

Mitch-I apreciate your input, however your quote implies I am asking for something from david. I hope that is not the point conveyed. The desin criteria I listed are just bullet points for consideration. I Love! Astro Flight products (loyal customer since the 80's)& recomend them to anyone who asks.

[Edited by Miles 1/11/09 after splitting topic]

Discussion initiated by Thud, on axial flux motor design, moved here: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=13957