Thoughts on current UPP batteries

[amberwolf]

Is there any benefit in replacing the UUP BMS with one that will balance and provide some form of remote monitoring?

If you have a nonbalancing BMS, then with the unmatched cells in the pack, it will reach an unusable state at some point (sooner the less matched the cells are and the harder the pack is used), because some cells will be nearly empty while others will be already full, preventing further charge of the non-full cells, and without a balancing function there's no way to correct this (other than opening up the pack and manually doing it in some fashion).


Remote monitoring can be useful in any pack that can't be trusted (which is most packs from most manufacturers and most sellers). Lets you see what's actually happening in there at any moment in time, during charge, on a ride, etc.

If the app that lets you see what's going on is any good (I doubt any are) it will also let you log data from the pack, set alarms to notify you of and shutdown conditions for various problems, etc.

 

[999zip999]

Dico
OK let's get this party started !
A Endless-Sphere batteries with E.S. Discount. The important part.
So 52v 15 and 20 ah with BT BMS programmable. Made with a Samsung40t, LG, Panasonic. Cell. One pack hi discharge one pack long range. Or 35 and 80 amp pack or So. Pure nickel bus bars. Ect
And a 72v 20ah BT ect. Only 2 different batteries to start.
Let's kick this idea around as long as we have your ear

 

[eMark]

Is there any benefit in replacing the UPP BMS with one that will balance and provide some form of remote monitoring?

Some of UPPs more expensive Hailong batteries come with BMS balancing and brand name cells LG, Samsung ...
Amazon.com ... For the price you'd certainly expect many performance cycles. However, it's still a UPP product (not having the best customer approval).

Those in the know would purchase a Grin Tech or EM3ev ebike battery before buying a UPP battery (questionable customer support).

 

[lnanek]

Dico
OK let's get this party started !
A Endless-Sphere batteries with E.S. Discount. The important part.
So 52v 15 and 20 ah with BT BMS programmable. Made with a Samsung40t, LG, Panasonic. Cell. One pack hi discharge one pack long range. Or 35 and 80 amp pack or So. Pure nickel bus bars. Ect
And a 72v 20ah BT ect. Only 2 different batteries to start.
Let's kick this idea around as long as we have your ear

Isn't ES paid for by Grin, who already has a shop?

 

[999zip999]

Justin would like to hear the conversation. Plus Grin gets a share of my ebike allowance I can prove it to you with invoices and the number of cycle analysis I have. This is a learning playground and think tank nothing on the level of ebike.ca .

Hey Justin PM me if I'm out of line.
Plus some of us can eat steak and lobster and some of us only get a hot dog sometimes heated. As a child many times I ran around with a cold hot dog in my hand happiest part of the day.

Plus at the moment it would be hard for me to recommend a upp path as I have too many batteries in too many hobbies in my one car garage.
Plus news of mountain bike fires in the garage or house or apartment is bad for the whole industry.

 

[tomjasz]

My Liberty Trike comes with a 36v battery that resembles a UPP battery.

Has Jason confirmed the battery source? How does it resemble a UPP? Have you opened the case? What color is the cardboard?

The UPP batteries i'm comparing to the LT battery (with identical aluminium cast housing) is NOT a Hailong case. Doesn't look anything like a Hailong case as you can see ... https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/t7wAAOSwPBNhjIpz/s-l140.webp

Yes, you can buy this UPP battery from ebay or amazon via another supplieror brand, but the rectangular cast aluminium housing with plastic end caps on-off switch, etc is the same UPP housing design ...

Amazon.com

UPP may also be sold under another brand name, but are basically the same as UPP being inferior to an EM3ev quality battery).

Hailong is a small group of cases from Shan Shan. aka CARRIER TYPE BATTERY CASE_昆山市山山电子科技有限公司（SHANSHAN TECH）

UPP uses a reddish thin cardboard as their fish paper.

 

[neptronix]

It's ES policy to not moderate discussion in favor of the company that sponsors this forum. And Grin has never asked us to do that, either.

It is a little odd to try to start a group buy on a thread that's mostly trashing the company though..

 

[999zip999]

I didn't really necessarily mean to start a group buy. But I'm curious if a company like upp can make a proper product that isn't burning down our members houses in garages. And how about the other people we never hear about with problems or fire. I was curious if the company was interested in building a closer to failsafe battery.
And the curious in me wants to know about their different levels of BMS options.
I myself my next battery will be with the spot welder I choose to buy. Waiting for three 72v and two 52v batteries to wear out. But like a kid in a candy store I still want to taste.

 

[tomjasz]

upp can make a proper product

Yes. But without some validation how are they measured?
I have a properly built battery and the handbuilt 13S pack I pictured has good welds and zero cell spacing.
I beat the crap out it along side my others and the UPP are always the laggards.

 

[999zip999]

Battery packs have always been extremely dangerous and E.S. has brought to light some of the first and dangerous Chinese companies as Cammy, BMS battery, and a lot of pure dangerous crap from China.
It also helped with the good guys Grin, Em3ev and Ping.
Gray area Many . But a grey area battery is like almost ok.. like bicyclemotorworks in USA I bought a 1,200usd triangle Samsung 40t 20s 6p or 24ah only 19.5ah at most. That's after it wouldn't fully charge and had to be sent back. Nightmare A year and a half later I opened it up only to find that a six P group had been replaced and the new group was all soldered wilked in. Dangerous. So money and buying in United States of America cannot guarantee a good product. After he return the pack to tme he would never engage in a phone call or an email after. Pennsylvania USA
So I could use s Luna cycle only because it's 35 miles away. But doesn't have 72 volt packs.
Anyway we probably scared off this guy from UPP.

 

[Cryingmadman]

Battery packs have always been extremely dangerous and E.S. has brought to light some of the first and dangerous Chinese companies as Cammy, BMS battery, and a lot of pure dangerous crap from China.
It also helped with the good guys Grin, Em3ev and Ping.
Gray area Many . But a grey area battery is like almost ok.. like bicyclemotorworks in USA I bought a 1,200usd triangle Samsung 40t 20s 6p or 24ah only 19.5ah at most. That's after it wouldn't fully charge and had to be sent back. Nightmare A year and a half later I opened it up only to find that a six P group had been replaced and the new group was all soldered wilked in. Dangerous. So money and buying in United States of America cannot guarantee a good product. After he return the pack to tme he would never engage in a phone call or an email after. Pennsylvania USA
So I could use s Luna cycle only because it's 35 miles away. But doesn't have 72 volt packs.
Anyway we probably scared off this guy from UPP.

Hi zip,

Your idea to Spec out a battery for our members for some manufacturers to build is genius.

When I grow up I wish I could build a battery like you.

Don’t leave your ideas behind keep dreaming.

Cryingmadman

“Ideas are easy execution is a bitch”

Marie Antoinette

 

[tomjasz]

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding cases. Most are Shan Shan or Reention. UPP does not make cases. The aluminum box and “Hailong” are from Shan Shan. I’m not sure what you’re trying to one up. One bike and a couple of 2s batteries do not qualify for expertise. Interesting, kinda, anecdotes not much more.

I have a custom built UPP but Rechie dis not follow my directions. That’s UPP

 

[eMark]

Hi zip,

Your idea to Spec out a battery for our members for some manufacturers to build is genius.

Interesting Idea. For starters ask some of the most knowledgeable DIY ES builders what is the best cell choice and the best price?
After figuring out the total DIY cost it's most likely less expensive, less labor intensive and no frustration to buy an EM3ev

It might cost more than you would want to pay the manufacturer. After all don't they deserve to make a reasonable profit?
Instead KIS by purchasing a Grin Tech ( Home page ) or EM3ev ... ( Home | EM3ev ) first rate quality battery with warranty.

 

[DICO]

平衡 BMS 应成为标准配置，而不是作为选项。蓝牙 BMS 的选择会很棒。

这个问题其实我们最初的想法是站在让客户自己选择的角度，毕竟他们的价格不一样，而且我们觉得对于不懂电子的客户来说，可以均衡一下BMS，就是没用，但是你的建议很好，我站在个人的角度，我也觉得应该有均衡的功能，而且我也有电池维护的经验，我认为BMS能均衡就是好的事物！但是手动均衡不能解决电池压差的问题，均衡后半年或者一年还是会出现同样的问题，主动均衡BMS，是个好功能，我现在正在寻找合适的厂家，但是国内尚无相对成熟的主动均衡BMS厂商。

 

[DICO]

我认为电池平衡比其他 BMS 功能具有更高的优先级，因为最终用户更难手动完成。没有自动平衡的电池组更有可能陷入危险的缺陷状态。

是的，我已经把主动均衡BMS拿回来测试了，技术还不是很成熟，需要继续优化。

 

[DICO]

评估您的电池是否通过短路和挤压测试。更好的是，获得 UL 批准。如果你的竞争对手做不到同样的事情，那么没有人会从你那里购买产品。这将在美国发生，可能明年在整个欧洲发生，

As far as I know, I'm not sure if there is an extrusion test, but there are short circuit, over discharge, over charge, aging tests, etc. For UL certification, I am communicating with you for the battery market in China, not for your country or individual, because in your US, if you don't have local products, if you want to pass UL or other certification, first of all, I'm not sure if it's all the same price, but we have individual battery styles that have passed UL, and the cost is about 10w RMB, and the pass rate is very low, but if we are your local products, the passing rate will be relatively high.

 

[DICO]

目前，较便宜的扁平矩形 UPP 电池不提供“平衡 BMS”……只是过压和欠压保护。IMO 如果使用 A 级名牌电池（例如三星、LG 等），这是可以的。除了廉价的平衡 BMS 之外，还使用电阻放电平衡，这对于不平衡的并联组来说可能会持续很长时间。所以这是难题......

似乎没有人确切知道他们的廉价平衡 BMS 平衡仅在电池 SOC 电压达到两者之间的某个值时才起作用。4.0-4.1 伏。并非所有 BMS 都相同，因此似乎没有人知道绿灯亮起后必须将充电器保持打开（插入）多长时间。有人说，频繁使用电池时，每月一次绿灯亮起后，应将充电器打开 12-16 小时。然而似乎没有人这样做。这就是使用具有主动平衡功能的所谓智能 BMS 的原因。

这就是为什么“主动”的所谓智能 BMS 受到青睐的原因；尤其是那些喜欢至少 50% 的骑行时间达到或接近 MCD 等级的动力和速度的电动自行车爱好者。

以我的了解，我所知道的是，我们一直在使用三星电池、LG[在中国市场被严重拒绝，业内称他们的产能与实际不匹配，我们已经很长时间没有使用了]，剩下的，我们会根据客户的要求来选择中国一线或者二线质量比较好的电芯，目前主动均衡的BMS看技术还不太成熟，只是仅限于2023年底，不知道目前是否有成熟的技术出现

 

[E-HP]

这个问题其实我们最初的想法是站在让客户自己选择的角度，毕竟他们的价格不一样，而且我们觉得对于不懂电子的客户来说，可以均衡一下BMS，就是没用，但是你的建议很好，我站在个人的角度，我也觉得应该有均衡的功能，而且我也有电池维护的经验，我认为BMS能均衡就是好的事物！但是手动均衡不能解决电池压差的问题，均衡后半年或者一年还是会出现同样的问题，主动均衡BMS，是个好功能，我现在正在寻找合适的厂家，但是国内尚无相对成熟的主动均衡BMS厂商。

Well active balancing would be best, especially since a lot of us don’t charge to 100%. I’ll watch for that in your future battery BMS specs.

 

[DICO]

我用谷歌翻译了OP的帖子..

我的背景：我是一名商人和电动自行车制造商。我曾与电动自行车公司合作过。

如果 UPP 想要在西方法规变化中生存下来，就需要尽可能提高质量和安全性。美国可能很快就会要求所有电池获得 UL/UN 认证。英语世界的其他国家可能也会效仿这种方式。

如果我是 UPP 主席，我会这样做：
- 立即停止向西方做广告/销售低质量包以降低负面声誉
- 立即着手未来电池的 UL/UN 认证
- 尽可能提高安全和质量，向优质产品学习

价格当然要上涨，但总有一天，中低质量的电池在西方将不再有市场。我现在就为此做好准备。

非常好的建议，值得参考，谢谢兄弟

 

[DICO]

包的老化需要大量的平衡表明：
- 工厂生产的电池不匹配
- BMS 从电池中不均匀地吸收能量，从而导致电池的磨损不均匀
- 一个非常慢的平衡电路

..或以上 3 项的某种组合

我可以告诉你，极其匹配的细胞可以保持平衡，而无需平衡，最多几年，平均一年。

Yes, this is a disadvantage of the BMS that does not actively equalise, the battery life is not very long.

 

[amberwolf]

Yes, this is a disadvantage of the BMS that does not actively equalise, the battery life is not very long.

Only if the cells are so poor quality and so badly mismatched that they become unbalanced.

If you use good quality cells that are matched in characteristics, it won't be much of a problem as long as the pack is only rated for what they can actually easily handle (current, LVC, HVC), and protected against usage outside of that.

 

[eMark]

以我的了解，我所知道的是，我们一直在使用三星电池、LG[在中国市场被严重拒绝，业内称他们的产能与实际不匹配，我们已经很长时间没有使用了]，剩下的，我们会根据客户的要求来选择中国一线或者二线质量比较好的电芯，目前主动均衡的BMS看技术还不太成熟，只是仅限于2023年底，不知道目前是否有成熟的技术出现

Translated with DeepL.com ...
"With my understanding, what I know is that we have been using Samsung batteries, LG [in the Chinese market was seriously rejected, the industry said that their production capacity and the actual mismatch, we have not been used for a long time], the rest, we will be based on the customer's requirements to choose China's first-tier or second-tier quality of the battery cell is better, at present, the active equalization of the BMS to see that the technology is not yet too mature, just limited to the end of 2023, I do not know if there is currently a mature technology to appear"

IMR (Houston, TX) stopped carrying LG cells 4-5 years ago (manufactured in China)

It's not that China can't produce a quality product. It's just that they won't if they don't have to. Apparently LG (South Korea) decided to outsource some of its UPP cell/battery manufacturing to China where UPP Quality Control has not been a top priority.

FWIW, i do have two 3-4 yr old U/PP flat 10Ah batteries (Chinese cells) in a sturdy cast aluminum enclosure. So far no complaints, but then i seldom pull more than 10 amps ... easy etrike cruising on paved urban paths.