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Timing Adjustment Tool

well this is the back of Lyens board

P1100706.jpg

and this is the phase wire I have running all the way from board to motor, the thicker of the two types in the pic


Wire is

49 strand conductor:

Conductor diameter:
0.1060 inch 2.69mm

Strand diameter
Max 0.0150 inch 0.38mm
Min 0.0125 inch 0.31mm

Overall Diameter
max O/D 0.1360 3.46mm
min O/D 0.1305 3.30mm

Insulator Thickness
0.0250 inch 0.64mm
 
NeilP said:
well this is the back of Lyens board

View attachment 1

and this is the phase wire I have running all the way from board to motor, the thicker of the two types in the pic
Click to expand...
Looks like 10 awg and lyens board is clean but it doesn't look like there is a lot of copper on the traces. It looks mostly like solder. I still think 100 amps as a limit is ok. Just up the limit 10 amps at a time and go for rides and see how hot it gets when it starts to get warm its ok but when it get really warm back it off! One thing that helped mine was it was right in front of the rear wheel and the rear wheel helped cool it by blowing air on it.

This summer I built a 12 fet with 4110 fets and pushed it hard at 100 amps and it held together! So 100 for a 18 should be ok.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
 
my controller is in a bad place

file.php


OK, that is not the Lyen controller, and it is now screwed to the top bar inside the box, not on the batteries like in the pic. Alos have got rid of those stupid large Andersons and gone for the double contact sprung 12mm spade terminals
 
NeilP said:
...So that must be a 4115 controller..or one you have modd'd yourself with different MOSFETS?
Click to expand...
Yes, they are 4115 MOSFETs. I had Lyen custom make my controllers. The only controller mod I have made myself is forced air cooling using two 50mm 12VDC fans (one blowing in and one blowing out). Cooling is a requirement for Florida.
 
Burtie said:
Here is the possible reason:
To get more road speed, you need more power.

If without timing mods, your controller is current limiting at WOT on the road, it is supplying all the power it can already.

Applying field weakening (lots of timing advance) effectively raises the motor KV and lowers the KT.
At a given road speed, the motor phase voltage is lower, but its phase current is higher. It still requires the same power input to achieve that same road speed.

The only way you will get more speed using field weakening, is if the controller is not current limiting at WOT in the first place,
like when:
1) There is little or no load on the motor.
2) The controller curent limit is set high enough that it is not active at your maximum road speed.

In this situation, you should get more speed if you up the current limit (assuming the stator is not saturated), but be careful not to over-cook the controller, or the motor.

Burtie
Click to expand...

Umm I am not really getting this.
I am sure since you have spent so much time on this, that I must be missing the point, either that or you have wasted a lot of time proving that timing can be adjusted but does nothing.

Here is where i am at at the moment with my thought process about all of this


Seems you are saying that in order to get The TA to be effective, I need more power
But adding more power without the Timing Board will give more speed anyway.
So if I have to add more power to make the TA work, it does not really seem to achieve anything.

OK, so It will give more speed under no load conditions, but under load I need to supply more power
...But if I have to supply more power...then I get more speed with out the Timing Board anyway..

From what I can see the TA proves the point that we can adjust the timing, and Burtie has built an effective device for doing so, but in practice, advancing the timing does not actually achieve anything that can't just be done by adding power alone. If you need to increase power levels and add the board..then you may as well just add more power, and save space and complexity



Burtie said:
2) The controller curent limit is set high enough that it is not active at your maximum road speed.

In this situation, you should get more speed if you up the current limit (assuming the stator is not saturated), but be careful not to over-cook the controller, or the motor.

Burtie
Click to expand...

So in that situation, what is now limiting the speed? Not Current limiting on the controller, not saturated stator (Does that mean Flux saturated..max flux possible?)
and what is the Board doing to overcome it
 
NeilP wrote:
Umm I am not really getting this.
I am sure since you have spent so much time on this, that I must be missing the point, either that or you have wasted a lot of time proving that timing can be adjusted but does nothing.
Click to expand...


:|
Neil, I suggest if you really want to learn about field weakening, how it is used, and why it is used, you should find a good article or two on the internet.

I dont think I can be very good at explaining these things :D

Burtie
 
Funnily enough that is what I have been doing this morning..

Still none the wiser though..
I still am missing the 'link' between the difference between field weakening and Timing Advance,.

I can see how moving the timing would work. sSnce current takes a finite time to build, and therefore so does the flux field,you need it to happen earlier the faster the motor spins.

But how making the flux field that pushes/pulls the rotor weaker rather than stronger can make the motor run faster is still beyond me, If it was field strengthening..i could get it but weakening.

And what the connection is between changing the timing point and how that makes the field weaker, is still beyond my grasp. I could see that lower voltage or current would have a field weakening effect, but changing the time it starts.....more reading again :(
 
Luke breifly talks about it here

And you can see a different version of it here
[youtube]6_41btVawMc[/youtube]
 
NeilP said:
Burtie said:
Here is the possible reason:
To get more road speed, you need more power.

If without timing mods, your controller is current limiting at WOT on the road, it is supplying all the power it can already.

Applying field weakening (lots of timing advance) effectively raises the motor KV and lowers the KT.
At a given road speed, the motor phase voltage is lower, but its phase current is higher. It still requires the same power input to achieve that same road speed.

The only way you will get more speed using field weakening, is if the controller is not current limiting at WOT in the first place,
like when:
1) There is little or no load on the motor.
2) The controller current limit is set high enough that it is not active at your maximum road speed.

In this situation, you should get more speed if you up the current limit (assuming the stator is not saturated), but be careful not to over-cook the controller, or the motor.

Burtie
Click to expand...

Umm I am not really getting this.
I am sure since you have spent so much time on this, that I must be missing the point, either that or you have wasted a lot of time proving that timing can be adjusted but does nothing.

Here is where i am at at the moment with my thought process about all of this


Seems you are saying that in order to get The TA to be effective, I need more power
But adding more power without the Timing Board will give more speed anyway.
So if I have to add more power to make the TA work, it does not really seem to achieve anything.

OK, so It will give more speed under no load conditions, but under load I need to supply more power
...But if I have to supply more power...then I get more speed with out the Timing Board anyway..

From what I can see the TA proves the point that we can adjust the timing, and Burtie has built an effective device for doing so, but in practice, advancing the timing does not actually achieve anything that can't just be done by adding power alone. If you need to increase power levels and add the board..then you may as well just add more power, and save space and complexity
Click to expand...

Dude you are missing the point.... BIG TIME. If your controller was not limiting your top speed based on the current then the TA will give you a higher top speed.
SO IF 65 amps it limiting you to 50mph then you need to raise the 65amps to something >65 (maybe 100?) and try without the TA you will find a new top speed ~50-55mph Then add the TA and you will find a new Higher top speed again > the controller with the raised current limit.

The TA can also help you fine tune your advance curve for cruising to save power!
 
I think field weakening is not actually field weakening but something totally
different. I once read a professor in some university designed the magnets and
stator such that the motor would be more susceptible to field weakening
but it didn't work. To my opinion that's because something else is happening :shock:

Neil: if your magnetic field is weaker then your motor needs more rpm to make
the same back-emf. Therefore 'field weakening' makes your motor run faster
than you would think based on KV and battery voltage. Downside is that
a 'weaker field' gives you less torque per Amp (2nd law of thermodynamics
is a b!tch :cry: )
 
I think due to my local conditions...no straight roads and an all island speed limit of 40mph I am never going to be able to see any improvement. at least not at this voltage,

I suppose I could up the current rating to be sure, and lower the voltage of the whole system down to 66 volts or so. to lower the overall power though the controller. Then I will get a lower top speed in general without hitting a current limit, then use the TA to see if I can a higher speed.

Could be a good way to get a more stealthy bike with a good top speed, be able to reduce the voltage and have the speed of a higher voltage. More stealthy because I can run with less batteries
 
Well Success with the new Firmware Burtie sent me

With a low pole count motor (8 pole pairs) and the Timing Threshold set at 12 or above we now get accurate readings down to about 62 rpm.

I did shoot a bit of video on a stills camera, and was about to upload it...but quality is so crap you can barely see the figures on the PC screen. So I will go back down the farm tomorrow and re shoot the demo with the proper DV cam.
Will just upload a small segment here now and then go back down and try and get some better clips tomorrow

[youtube]aI0vmNPGwFI[/youtube]
 
Slightly better video of the TA2 with firmware 522-03

Hope it does not bore you all too much
Just seen error in text at 4:40..that should read 45 degree at 100% throttle override...not 10%


Edit again a few years later.

I just noticed I use the word 'Throttle' a few times. I am not referring to the actual handle bar mounted throttle. I believe I am referring to the manual adjustment 'throttle override potentiometer...but to be honest, I am not totally sure now.

[youtube]wUEDTjSqWAU[/youtube]
 
Nice graphic demo of the new firmware Neil.

Thanks for taking the time to document it for us.

I like the demo of the run-away setup where the motor speed keeps increasing on its own, until it reaches the 60 degree limit at over 1000 rpm :)
 
A shame I did not get a pic of turning the throttle override pot, so you can see exactly when I turn down the the pot and how it keeps accelerating.
You can at least hear when it is hitting 60 and the misfire occurs

There would be less vibration if the bike frame was not mounted on a wooden frame, and the wheel was balanced and fitted to the rim better

Tomorrow I may make up a pack of 12s2p, so only 50volts and run my 5304 on that instead of the usual 100volts. That will allow me to run at a lower overall speed , so i can do some loaded road tests and see what the results are without having to break our 40mph speed limit :)
 
Hey Neil, thanks for clueing me in. So, what percentage of battery might we save if we utilize this device?
 
From my understanding, I do not think that this is going to save you anything.
I have only tested under no load conditions so far, so cant yet comment about real world performance
But, under no load you will see if you look at the earlier videos, that as timing is advanced, speed increases, and current also goes up

So you are getting a higher speed for the same voltage, but more current draw, so obviously battery wil discharge quicker

I believe that it may be possible to fine tune for economy rather than speed, but I have seen nothing to prove that myself

As I said earlier, (assuming weather is kind) I will try running at a lower voltage today and see what performance increase I can see
My problem is that when I run at 100 volts, I have no roads that I can get up to top speed (55mph) on anyway, so I won't see any improvement. I need to first slow the bike down by reducing pack voltage, and then see if I can gain some speed back using the board
 
Well i ran the board with the 5304 at 50 volts this morning, with a 10Ah 20-30C pack

max speed with no board on in bypass mode was 26mph at around 18 amps on the flat, W.O.T.

Slowly winding the timing adjuster from 0 degree advance up to around 40 degree advance while at this stable top speed, gave no speed difference at all.

The current went up to about 24 amps, but speed was unchanged

Any settings I tried while under load may no difference at all.

The last thing I tried was switching between bypass and MapA with about 25 degrees advance setup via the throttle pot...either the switching or something else..not sure..it all happened so fast, but the back wheel locked up and I got chucked down the road.
No major injury, it was only at about 26 mph, but slowing rapidly before I actually came off.

Small graze to left knee, ripped coat, scratched brake lever and hydraulic reservoir, and all the wires and switches / pot for the TA board that were on the handle bars got smashed up..

Have come to the conclusion, that although in theory and under no load timing adjustment does increase speed. In real world conditions it is just an added complication, that wont actually achieve anything. If you need more speed, then just adding more batteries is the way to go.

If you have hub motor with badly placed hall sensors, or are using the higher speed RC motors, you may see more benefit, but for a Xlyte 5304 motor at least, it will not make any difference to real world speeds
 
Umm. not sure that would help, this. this was a low speed lock up, possibly only for a fraction of a second, probably caused by a misfire in the timing, so i doubt the current was so high that anything would have blown anyway. You would need fuses in the 200 amp region to allow them to work under normal conditions anyway,

The two most annoying things are that the board made no difference in real world conditions...and i ripped and expensive $700 USD out doors/ all weather hiking coat
 
I am not like you mad Swiss, I do not go rolling in the snow for fun...Might try that in Florida maybe...but in Europe in Winter...I'll give that a miss I think
 
NeilP said:
...The two most annoying things are that the board made no difference in real world conditions...and i ripped and expensive $700 USD out doors/ all weather hiking coat
Click to expand...


Neil, Stop complaining.

You know by now that it is compulsary to trash loads of expensive stuff in name of carrying out essential research.


:wink:
 
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