Timing Adjustment Tool

Doctorbass said:
IS it possible that due to the angled tooth of the stator, that the X5 serie wont work?.. just like for the Delta-WYE...

The X5 had no succes with the ( electric transmission) Delta-WYE and it just consumed more current.

I see the exact same problem here but about timing.

I guess taht with the 9C, HX andcromotor it would?

I was expecting it to qork with my X5 and the $$ Enertrac that my friend J-L bought but both are angled stator tooth :?

Well... I will try anyway on both

Doc
Click to expand...

thats an interesting question doc,
the x5 has bugger all poles, and clearly an non sinusoidal waveform.
the low pole count means theres a lot less erpm and way less timing advance needed/less advantage from it.
the angled stator tooth is just one way in the motors design of changing the waveforms shape, and if it was sinusoidal then it would work nicely in delta cos any phase has the same instantaneous voltage as the others add to. -resulting in no circulating currents, and no losses.
-if it does not play nicely in delta, then there may be something in that , and it would be good to see the x5's shape on a cro??
 
Well regarding low pole count motors, I have had the tool running sucesfully with an unknown motor with a lower pole count than the x5 series.
OK so as yet I can't get an increase on a loaded bike, but unloaded the device does work well. See my previous videos of the TA board in action.
I see my problem with this controller as probably more of a controller one. possible phase current limiting. But the conbtroller I am using is not programable..I plan a shunt mod on it, just awaiting arrival of a bigger soldering iron (350W) after my last big one died.

Ian has recently (Christmas time) changed the firmware to allow the unit to work better at lower speeds with low pole count motors
 
Neilp,

I think that it would be very interesting to tehst that T-A with an X5 AND an adjustable motor and battery current controller!

I will assemble everything tonight for testing mine.

I have at least 20 pages of that threat that i did not followed but i see that there is a firmware update and software update? is it right?

If so since i bougt mine in the very first unit sold, can i update mine with this lastest version ( is it compatible)?


Doc
 
Doctorbass said:
Neilp,

I think that it would be very interesting to tehst that T-A with an X5 AND an adjustable motor and battery current controller!

I will assemble everything tonight for testing mine.

I have at least 20 pages of that threat that i did not followed but i see that there is a firmware update and software update? is it right?

If so since i bougt mine in the very first unit sold, can i update mine with this lastest version ( is it compatible)?

Doc
Click to expand...
Firmware yes, but it is done from a chip that Burtie will send you.

Did you sit through my videos? Some get a bit long. But you can se the TA increasing the speed under no load conditions. You can see the TA working on my 5304, although not under load. I can not test such a powerful motor here on my small island...we do not have long enough straight roads for me to get up to a good speed, let it settle and comapare with TA or No TA

I will link all the videos again here in this post

5304, KPH is RPM/10
Ignore all readings on the CA. that is a second one running off a different battery pack set with a speed sensor to read rear wheel rpm.
So multiply by 10 for back wheel RPM. You will see first, no TA, then TA with various timing adavnces. this was the firmware ver 522-02
18 FET Lyen at 83 volts ( ignore CA voltage as displayed) 70 amp battery 180 phase
[youtube]Fpr_o0zCAec[/youtube]

Unknown 8 pole pair motor non- programable 18 FET Xlyte standard 40 or 50 amp controller..
[youtube]fPkwkEbuXno[/youtube]

Firmware ver 03
18 FET Xlyte standard 40 or 50 amp controller.. Unknown 8 pole pair motor
[youtube]wUEDTjSqWAU[/youtube]
[youtube]aI0vmNPGwFI[/youtube]
 
Jozzer said:
Regarding controller compatibility - I can report that Ian's device works fine with a Sevcon Gen4 controller - though I've yet to make any serious timing tests with it.

It also works with the small silver Kelly controllers - though the bigger isolated Kelly's (KHB) don't (at least not without modifications to the TA).

For those battling saturation - seems timing can really help increase current/torque overload capabilities - well worth experimenting with for vehicles pushed past thier limits..

Steve
Click to expand...


Thanks for the news about the Sevcon Steve, also interesting results regarding saturation and timing effects. Any more data you can share would be great.

For the benefit of others wanting to use the Kelly KHB, I think Steve found that it requires 12v signals to drive its opto-isolated hall inputs.
The TA has 5v TTL hall outputs, so some open collector, or level shifting driver would be required to make it operate with the KHB.


Doc,
Look forward to your results testing those hub motors. If you decide you need the updated TA firmware, drop me a pm and we will sort it out somehow.

Burtie
 
Burtie said:
...
For the benefit of others wanting to use the Kelly KHB, I think Steve found that it requires 12v signals to drive its opto-isolated hall inputs.
The TA has 5v TTL hall outputs, so some open collector, or level shifting driver would be required to make it operate with the KHB.
...

Burtie
Click to expand...

Toolman2 and I have just done some testing with an opto isolated Kelly.
With the timing module in place the Kelly would turn the motor less then 1/4 rotation then give an error code 4,2 (Hall Sensor Error).

Without the timing module we then did some tests on the Halls.
First off the supplied voltage to power the halls is 5 volts (4.8 measured at the plug).
We then measured the signal wires and they moved between 0 volts (0.4 or so a the plug) and 10 volts (9.7 measured at the plug).
As an additional test we changed the voltage of the power to the Kelly from the 12 volts (Lead Acid battery supply) to approx 23 volts from a lipo pack.
NOTE that the "on" and "off" voltages (0 and 10) did not change.

So it appears that the Kelly does have another reference rail for the signals from the Halls. We have assumed that this is to reduce the chance of misfire due to induced noise on the hall wires.

Now the question... what would be the easiest way to adapt the TA for these Kelly's. Do we need to add a circuit to the 5v TTL outputs to make them switch the higher reference voltage (say a pair of transistors) or can we make the TA have "open collector" by cutting some traces etc?

Tony
 
Splinter when you mesure from the kelly to the halls what is the voltage it is feeding the halls?
 
SplinterOz said:
Arlo1 said:
Splinter when you mesure from the kelly to the halls what is the voltage it is feeding the halls?
Click to expand...
As above it is 5 volts powering the halls. His is between return and hall power on the J2 cable from he Kelly.
Click to expand...
What Im getting at is can't you use the 5 volts that power the halls and power burties timing tool? Or am I missing something.
Edit: Are you using the battery ground or the hall negative? It sounds like the hall negative is shifted 5v??
 
Arlo1 said:
SplinterOz said:
Arlo1 said:
Splinter when you mesure from the kelly to the halls what is the voltage it is feeding the halls?
Click to expand...
As above it is 5 volts powering the halls. His is between return and hall power on the J2 cable from he Kelly.
Click to expand...
What Im getting at is can't you use the 5 volts that power the halls and power burties timing tool? Or am I missing something.
Edit: Are you using the battery ground or the hall negative? It sounds like the hall negative is shifted 5v??
Click to expand...

The TA is powered and working, however the Hall signal is 0 - 5 volts from the TA when the Kelly expects 0 - 10 volts for the signal.

Note all the measurements above are wrt the ground on the hall plug. Remember this is an opto isolated controller with the pack voltage is no way connected to the control parts. The hall, throttle, leds etc are all based on the controller power (12 volt) system not the traction battery levels.
 
Hmm Im confused the Kelly feeds 5v to the halls but expects 10v back?
Only way to get 10v back from the halls is to feed them 10v in the first place which I think is to much for my halls, Im going to check.
Edit: my ss41 halls can accept up to 24v :shock: http://www.honeywell-sensor.com.cn/prodinfo/magnetic_position/installation/p88781_2.pdf
So you must have something off when testing the voltage the Kelly feeds the halls it must be feeding 10v to the halls if it expects 10v back.
The entire hall circuit should be optically isolated so maybe you are getting funny measurements from that?
 
Arlo1 said:
Hmm Im confused the Kelly feeds 5v to the halls but expects 10v back?
Only way to get 10v back from the halls is to feed them 10v in the first place which I think is to much for my halls, Im going to check.
Edit: my ss41 halls can accept up to 24v :shock: http://www.honeywell-sensor.com.cn/prodinfo/magnetic_position/installation/p88781_2.pdf
So you must have something off when testing the voltage the Kelly feeds the halls it must be feeding 10v to the halls if it expects 10v back.
The entire hall circuit should be optically isolated so maybe you are getting funny measurements from that?
Click to expand...

Arlo, the pdf you have linked even has a circuit that has the signal wire controlling voltages other than the hall power voltage.
 
Arlo1 said:
Hmm Im confused the Kelly feeds 5v to the halls but expects 10v back?
Only way to get 10v back from the halls is to feed them 10v in the first place which I think is to much for my halls, Im going to check.
Edit: my ss41 halls can accept up to 24v :shock: http://www.honeywell-sensor.com.cn/prodinfo/magnetic_position/installation/p88781_2.pdf
So you must have something off when testing the voltage the Kelly feeds the halls it must be feeding 10v to the halls if it expects 10v back.
Click to expand...

Many hall sensors including the ss41 types are open-collector signal output, similar to optoisolator outputs, so that their output voltage limits are not the same as the power to run it. All their output signal does is ground (short out) whatever is presented at it, via an external resistor.

So, for instnace, in an ebike controller there usually are pullup resistors from the 5v power line inside the controller to the hall input wires. That's why you may read 5V at each hall signal wire when no halls are connected to it. When a magnet passes over a sensor in a motor, it toggles the output from open to short, which grounds that 5V down thru the Collector-Emittor junction, which means it isn't really 0V, so that's one reason you read higher than ground when it's toggled "on". then it gets toggled "off" from short to open, and the 5V comes back, to whatever voltage that resistor is tied to inside the controller.

Some controllers might not have internal pullups, and so the motor halls would have to have them there, or at teh plug for the controller. Might not even use 5V, but might be a higher voltage, 10, 12, 24, etc. As long as it isn't
--higher voltage than the CE-junction voltage for the hall
and
--higher current than the hall output can handle (meaning, too low a resistance for the pullup resistors)
then it doesn't matter what you hook up to the hall signal output pin--it just grounds out the voltage you put there, when it turns on.


Other halls, liek the ones in our throttles, don't use open-collector outputs, and their output signal will only go at most from +Vsupply to ground, and usually not even that wide a swing.
 
amberwolf said:
Arlo1 said:
Hmm Im confused the Kelly feeds 5v to the halls but expects 10v back?
Only way to get 10v back from the halls is to feed them 10v in the first place which I think is to much for my halls, Im going to check.
Edit: my ss41 halls can accept up to 24v :shock: http://www.honeywell-sensor.com.cn/prodinfo/magnetic_position/installation/p88781_2.pdf
So you must have something off when testing the voltage the Kelly feeds the halls it must be feeding 10v to the halls if it expects 10v back.
Click to expand...

Many hall sensors including the ss41 types are open-collector signal output, similar to optoisolator outputs, so that their output voltage limits are not the same as the power to run it. All their output signal does is ground (short out) whatever is presented at it, via an external resistor.

So, for instnace, in an ebike controller there usually are pullup resistors from the 5v power line inside the controller to the hall input wires. That's why you may read 5V at each hall signal wire when no halls are connected to it. When a magnet passes over a sensor in a motor, it toggles the output from open to short, which grounds that 5V down thru the Collector-Emittor junction, which means it isn't really 0V, so that's one reason you read higher than ground when it's toggled "on". then it gets toggled "off" from short to open, and the 5V comes back, to whatever voltage that resistor is tied to inside the controller.

Some controllers might not have internal pullups, and so the motor halls would have to have them there, or at teh plug for the controller. Might not even use 5V, but might be a higher voltage, 10, 12, 24, etc. As long as it isn't
--higher voltage than the CE-junction voltage for the hall
and
--higher current than the hall output can handle (meaning, too low a resistance for the pullup resistors)
then it doesn't matter what you hook up to the hall signal output pin--it just grounds out the voltage you put there, when it turns on.


Other halls, liek the ones in our throttles, don't use open-collector outputs, and their output signal will only go at most from +Vsupply to ground, and usually not even that wide a swing.
Click to expand...


Amberwolf,

Thanks for the detailed explanation.
Tony
 
just to be clear, with the big opto isolated KHB types it seems the halls are powered by +5v like normal but the 3 signals are then pulled up to about +10v via resistors in the kelly (all normal accept they are normally just pulled up to the +5v) so it seems the kelly wants to see over 5v to trigger.

so the solution im trying first is two npn transistors between burtie and kelly for each signal (both with emiters to 0v, first transistors collector to the seconds base) and this should turn the signal back to the same direction but now open colector output heading to the controller.?

ill let you know if it works.
 
Sounds like a good solution toolman.

You might want to consider using a 7407 (hex open collector buffer) to do the same job.

http://makeyourownchip.tripod.com/7407.html
http://www.cedmagic.com/tech-info/data/7407.pdf
 
Burtie said:
Sounds like a good solution toolman.

You might want to consider using a 7407 (hex open collector buffer) to do the same job.

http://makeyourownchip.tripod.com/7407.html
http://www.cedmagic.com/tech-info/data/7407.pdf
Click to expand...

thank you Burtie, yes.
and i can report back that it works,
now the KHB opto kelly runs with you, but only to 3500rpm not the 5555 i had without timing, so theres just a smooth rev limiter now, and this confuses the piss out of me but with burtie in bypass were back to the normal 5555rpm.

so the transistor circuit works i spose but now advanced timing gives less revs (and amps).

this and other things have now ruined my brain, i think i may have to turn to fany.
-what do people think ?
 
This is correct.
The hall outputs are based on 12V via a resistor inside.So it is about 10V when you measured against the ground on new KHB model.
 
Burtie said:
Sounds like a good solution toolman.

You might want to consider using a 7407 (hex open collector buffer) to do the same job.

http://makeyourownchip.tripod.com/7407.html
http://www.cedmagic.com/tech-info/data/7407.pdf
Click to expand...

Burtie, I built a little board with a 7407 and confirmed it worked in the same way as Toolman2's two npn transistor setup.
On a little board I think the 7404 can be neater.
 
ok fany thanks,
we messed with the 5 adjustment sliders in the new GUI and it seems that above 5 or 10 degrees of advance, we are getting less speed from the motor rather than more, so it appears that the KHB is taking control and backing the throttle off (from full) when burtie adds more advance.

its looking like a classic battle between burtie and kelly, and everytime burtie makes an advance kelly starts becoming a control freak, and withdraws throttle privileges. so i dont quite know how you can put this tale to the software engineers fany, but please give it a try, because burtie and kelly really need to try and get along better. :lol:

anyway its not looking like its really anything with the TA so as you were folks..
 
I have difficulties downloading the toolsfrom page one (TA interface prog v2.02.zip).
keep getting
"The connection was reset
The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading."

The other downloads are fine.
Could Burtie/someone repost please?

Edit: Classic moment of D'oh - works from company computer, as it works from home on the other links... Thanks Burtie!
 
So are these still available and being used? Is there something better I havent found the thread for yet?

I am running an 80-100 I added hall sensors to, but i have the sneaking suspicion I have them off some.. so the motor works, but its drawing far more current under load than I was expecting. I think I can use this to bump the timing around until I find the "ideal" set up for my motor at WOT going down the road...
 
MrDude_1 said:
So are these still available and being used? Is there something better I havent found the thread for yet?

I am running an 80-100 I added hall sensors to, but i have the sneaking suspicion I have them off some.. so the motor works, but its drawing far more current under load than I was expecting. I think I can use this to bump the timing around until I find the "ideal" set up for my motor at WOT going down the road...
Click to expand...

If Burtie no more offer these, I have one used i could sell. I no longer use it since i have the adaptto.

Pm me
 
I have 2 of these as well that I never used that I can sell cheep there are a great item. I moved on to better controllers. :)
 
lol, I just sent PMs to everyone that let me know they had one...

thanks guys. this forum is awesome how everyone pitches in with "oh i have this thing that can help you"...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top