Tmm4 torque sensor and phaserunner

[barre125]

Hello, I did some digging and could not find anyone who has addressed this previously. Has anyone attempted to configure a Tmm4 torque sensor to a phase runner? Im currently planning for a build and I'd love to use any other kind of torque sensor than a BB torque sensor because I want to maintain the axle and crankset that I have currently. I have always used juiced bikes and their type of set up works extremely well for the way I ride. thanks in advance

 

[justin_le]

Hello, I did some digging and could not find anyone who has addressed this previously. Has anyone attempted to configure a Tmm4 torque sensor to a phase runner?

We've had a few customers succeed at doing that with a CA3 succesfully. It should be possible using a direct hookup to the Phaserunner's 6 pin PAS input too (assuming you also have a superharness and display). As there is no PAS signaling with a TMM4 sensor you need to use the "wheel torque sensor" option. This mode auto-zeroes the voltage reading it sees on the torque sensor pin at power up, and it then scales that to Nm based on the torque sensor gain setting.



The TMM4 isn't measuring torque so much as chain tension, but you can stand on the cranks in the typical gear that you ride in, calculate that that translates into for Nm based on your weight and crank length, and then see how much voltage it generates in the dashboard tab. From there you have what's needed to compute an effective torque sensor gain.

 

[HappyBikeMalvern]

Any updates on this one? We are assuming we've got a TMM4 on this 2014 BH Neo Carbon, so taking a 5V signal from the brown 9 pin cable rather than the 12V in the 6 pin PAS plug, figuring that was less of a job than the step-down resistor.

We're only reading a flickering 3.59-3.64 voltage on the dashboard and voltmeter depending on battery level, with no response to pedalling inputs.

We've taken the following wiring layout (and lost my source for this) but perhaps this is incorrect?

Sensor Baserunner V6
Yellow Gnd Black 6 pin
Red 5V. Brown 9 pin
Blue Signal White 6 pin

Configured in Phaserunner Suite with TMM4 control command, and wheel torque sensor in pedal sensor type.

Additionally the motor (we think a Dapu M155) autotunes and throttles ok using 50 pole pairs, but doesn't register the RPM in the dashboard unless throttle is applied; as soon as throttle is backed off, RPM reading drops to zero even with wheel spinning. Same for spinning the wheel by hand.

 

[Antlestxp]

Any updates on this one? We are assuming we've got a TMM4 on this 2014 BH Neo Carbon, so taking a 5V signal from the brown 9 pin cable rather than the 12V in the 6 pin PAS plug, figuring that was less of a job than the step-down resistor.

We're only reading a flickering 3.59-3.64 voltage on the dashboard and voltmeter depending on battery level, with no response to pedalling inputs.

We've taken the following wiring layout (and lost my source for this) but perhaps this is incorrect?

Sensor Baserunner V6
Yellow Gnd Black 6 pin
Red 5V. Brown 9 pin
Blue Signal White 6 pin

Configured in Phaserunner Suite with TMM4 control command, and wheel torque sensor in pedal sensor type.

Additionally the motor (we think a Dapu M155) autotunes and throttles ok using 50 pole pairs, but doesn't register the RPM in the dashboard unless throttle is applied; as soon as throttle is backed off, RPM reading drops to zero even with wheel spinning. Same for spinning the wheel by hand.

Did you ever sort this out. I seem to be in the same boat

 

[amberwolf]

Regarding the TMM4, this thread has some mounting tips that might help make sure that's done correctly:

Tips to improve TMM4 torque sensor reliability

forums.electricbikereview.com

Is the sensor mounted so that the chain tension on the axle and slotted-dropout are pulled in the right direction to activate the sensor?

Additionally the motor (we think a Dapu M155) autotunes and throttles ok using 50 pole pairs, but doesn't register the RPM in the dashboard unless throttle is applied; as soon as throttle is backed off, RPM reading drops to zero even with wheel spinning. Same for spinning the wheel by hand.

If the dapu is a geared hubmotor, it means the PR is only reading the hall sensors for speed sensing, which means it only works when the motor is actually spinning. The clutch prevents the casing from spinning the motor, so it only works when the motor is being powered.

If you add an external wheelsensor (or the dapu has a case-mounted sensor inside with a separate speedo wire), you can set the PR to monitor that...but, there is a known issue where if the sensor doesn't provide just the right signal at all the right instants the PR may fallback to the hall sensor anyway...which because it has many more poles than the wheel sensor, will cause you problems because the #poles doesn't get changed to match during the falllback (which is kinda dumb).

 

[Antlestxp]

I was able to get the sensor working. I can see it function in the grin software suite. Now I just need to figure out how to configure it.

 

[amberwolf]

How did you get the sensor working? Details of that posted here will help the next person that comes along.

Justin_LE's post above has some info on setting it up.

If you tell us the specifics of your system and what you already see and have setup, and then what you want the system to do for you and how, we may be able to help you with the configuration.

 

[Antlestxp]

How did you get the sensor working? Details of that posted here will help the next person that comes along.

Justin_LE's post above has some info on setting it up.

If you tell us the specifics of your system and what you already see and have setup, and then what you want the system to do for you and how, we may be able to help you with the configuration.

I just had the wiring wrong. once that was corrected, I can see a voltage change as I push on the pedals. That is as far as I have gone. I can't figure out how to get the controller to make use of it. There is not alot of info available for grin controllers online.

 

[amberwolf]

I can't figure out how to get the controller to make use of it. There is not alot of info available for grin controllers online.

If you tell us the specifics of your system and what you already see and have setup, and then what you want the system to do for you and how, we may be able to help you with the configuration.

 

[Antlestxp]

I am converting a juiced crosscurrent x to a base runner. The old controller popped. I seems like the grin units work well with the 52 volt battery the bike came with. I am using the stock dropout torque sensor. It has an idle output of around .4v and will go up to 2v if I stand on the crank. I'm basically guessing with the software config. The bike works fine with the throttle but no amount of stomping on the pedals will get the pedal assist to kick in. Another note is the dropout sensor does have a cadence sensor in it as well. The average pedal speed is bouncing from +400 to -400 rpm when I pedal. I'm not sure if that is related to the bike ignoring the torque sensor value. Is there any other info I need that would be helpful?

 

[Antlestxp]

With enough trial and error, I was able to come up with a working configuration.

Control command source = BB torque sensor <- the only option that worked even though this is a dropout sensor
Peda sensor type = single hall torque

for whatever reason this works. Now I just need to dial in the motor configuration. I get stuttering if I try and take off with the throttle alone.

 

[amberwolf]

I am converting a juiced crosscurrent x to a base runner. The old controller popped. I seems like the grin units work well with the 52 volt battery the bike came with. I am using the stock dropout torque sensor. It has an idle output of around .4v and will go up to 2v if I stand on the crank. I'm basically guessing with the software config. The bike works fine with the throttle but no amount of stomping on the pedals will get the pedal assist to kick in. Another note is the dropout sensor does have a cadence sensor in it as well. The average pedal speed is bouncing from +400 to -400 rpm when I pedal. I'm not sure if that is related to the bike ignoring the torque sensor value. Is there any other info I need that would be helpful?

Ok, so there's a couple ways you could do this.

The first is using the TS and throttle separately, like you're trying to setup now.

Does your BR have the option in Pedal Sensor Type for just the torque, with no PAS / cadence sensor? Or if there's a way to disable the PAS Sensor Configuration section's values so it ignores them? If not, you would need to have a working cadence sensor to get the BR to respond to the torque sensor.

If the cadence sensor is being detected only as that specific rpm, just as forward or reverse, my first guess would be that the signal being seen by the BR is not actually the cadence, but instead is a F/R line that happens to for some reason be modulated at a specfic frequency instead of a solid signal. I'll have to look up the specifics on how the TMM4 works (the last things I saw didn't show a cadence sensor, just the torque sensor, but I might've missed it).

If for some reason you can't get the existing cadence sensor to work, you could add a crank-mounted magnet ring and sensor. Shouldn't be necessary, but it's a possible fallback.


The second is using the TMM directly as a throttle, by changing the throttle range to match it. That means your regular throttle would not work over it's whole range anymore, it would have a much higher response for a smaller movement range, if you simply wire both outputs to the same throttle input (perhaps with a 1-10kohm resistor in series with each connection to ensure neither can cause a problem with the other).

Alternately for that method you could use a bit of electronics to "compress" the voltage range of the throttle down to match the TMM, or expand the TMM's range to match the throttle, and then send them together to the throttle input of the BR.

There's other methods too, like the Cycle Analyst, but that's more complication and expense, and shouldn't be necessary.

 

[Antlestxp]

Ok, so there's a couple ways you could do this.

The first is using the TS and throttle separately, like you're trying to setup now.

Does your BR have the option in Pedal Sensor Type for just the torque, with no PAS / cadence sensor? Or if there's a way to disable the PAS Sensor Configuration section's values so it ignores them? If not, you would need to have a working cadence sensor to get the BR to respond to the torque sensor.

If the cadence sensor is being detected only as that specific rpm, just as forward or reverse, my first guess would be that the signal being seen by the BR is not actually the cadence, but instead is a F/R line that happens to for some reason be modulated at a specfic frequency instead of a solid signal. I'll have to look up the specifics on how the TMM4 works (the last things I saw didn't show a cadence sensor, just the torque sensor, but I might've missed it).

If for some reason you can't get the existing cadence sensor to work, you could add a crank-mounted magnet ring and sensor. Shouldn't be necessary, but it's a possible fallback.


The second is using the TMM directly as a throttle, by changing the throttle range to match it. That means your regular throttle would not work over it's whole range anymore, it would have a much higher response for a smaller movement range, if you simply wire both outputs to the same throttle input (perhaps with a 1-10kohm resistor in series with each connection to ensure neither can cause a problem with the other).

Alternately for that method you could use a bit of electronics to "compress" the voltage range of the throttle down to match the TMM, or expand the TMM's range to match the throttle, and then send them together to the throttle input of the BR.

There's other methods too, like the Cycle Analyst, but that's more complication and expense, and shouldn't be necessary.

Realy helpful info