Torque-Sensor Motor w/ Sine-Wave Controller Build

[WhatcomRider]

Well I put the PAS sensor on today and I still haven't got any life out of my kit, I tried that P4 = 0 setting to try and get throttle going and it doesn't work for me.

I suggest that you check all the voltages of the power wires and signal wires. The blue signal wire of the throttle should read from about 1 to 4 volts as you twist the throttle. The yellow signal wire of the PAS should pulse as you turn the cranks. You could try removing the LCD display and shorting 1,2 and 3,5 as suggested in the diagram, and if the controller works then you may have a defective display.

 

[TheBeastie]

Yeah thanks for the suggestions, I figured it out in the end, was right in my face the whole time, it was a dodgey ebrake.

I bought the fancy ebrake sensors, these a good because you don't have to replace your original handbrakes and save wires going to the handlebars.

They have a little red LED on them that I now know is suppose to go on only when you pull the brake, out of the two I have installed one of them was on the whole time, until I unplugged it I thought it was the other way around. So as soon as I unplugged my bad ebrake the whole bike worked flawlessly.

With the Ebrake wire unplugged I hit the throttle the bike took off! PAS works as well.
I ordered 4 of these ebrakes so I will just replace the bad one, the other one for the front brakes works fine. It could be just that the wire is the wrong way around on the bad one, the wires in the ebrake cable are fully hidden under the plug so I cant see if they are around the wrong way, the ebrake plugs were the only plugs where I couldn't see wire color.

I have take one test ride up the the supermarket on a 36v battery and I hit 35km/h according the the LCD display. Will try my 48v battery later. All up I am very happy with the performance.

The one set of wires not on that diagram are the blue/black. I asked BMSbattery what the blue/black wire they have jumpered out of the controller does and they said cruise control, I tested it and it does work.

 

[WhatcomRider]

Excellent TB, glad to know you got it all sorted out.

 

[adrian_sm]

yes they can. But they cannot switch back to sensorless if halls fail. X8M06 can do that.

Just tested a KV195, ~10µH inductance 80cc Rotomax BLDC on the S06P. Does only turn very slowly adn says Error06 after a few seconds. Tested it with a 6Fet X8M06 / KU65, turns till ~660Hz or 40.000 e-rpm but has start-up hassle. Still X8M06 are the best choice e-bike controllers for low inductance motors IMO, at least better than Infineon and the S-Series.

A KV100 motor with 200µH (15 turn N6364 motor) works fine on both S06P and KU65. Could not test the max e-rpm of the S06P. since I have no motor at hand that spins >40.000 e-rpm, except the Rotomax. But this is proof that it does at least 40.000. The S06P has smother start up, but says Error06 if there is only little resistance.

Just ran the S06P & KU65 on my dyno.
S06P had similar Error6 errors every so often with both SK36364-190kv & SK36364-168kv motors, both on the road and on the dyno.
Both controllers heat up a fair bit when they had to current limit.

Here are some images of the phase voltages under a light load, at full throttle, and partial throttle with the S06P.
View attachment s06p - full throttle.bmp
View attachment s06p_partial_throttle.bmp
View attachment s06p_partial_throttle_close_up.bmp

 

[ebike-kit.nl]

Hi Guys,

This is Carl . I spotted this topic about the K-LCD.

But most important, if you any of you have any questions about this display, just pop the question in this topic!

Regards,
Carl

 

[adrian_sm]

Hi Carl,

I have a few questions about the K-LCD display.

1) Can you adjust the assist levels assigned to levels 1-5. From my measurement 5=100%, 4=50%, 3=33%, 2=20%, 1=10%. I find the levels 1-3 are never used.

2) Can you disable the PAS while still using a throttle? I found that PAS is only disabled when level=0, but this also disables the throttle. It would be nice to be able to have both PAS and throttle installed and be able to use either independently.

3) Is it possible to make the PAS level limit the power for not only PAS assist, but the throttle assist. I would like to have adjustable limit on the throttle power, but the level appears to have no effect.

4) Can you provide more details on advanced parameter P5. I don't understand what thee different number mean.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

- Adrian

 

[amberwolf]

This is Carlspamremoved I spotted this topic about the K-LCD.

Providing info about your stuff in this thread is certainly welcome, but you must move your advertisement into the for-sale section with the rest of the required info per the rules.

For nwo I have removed the advertisement part.

New items: *** *** FOR SALE *** *** Read This First...
Used items: *** POSTING GUIDELINES -- USED STUFF FOR SALE *** READ ME!

Do :
- Do describe in detail what you are selling
- Show any damage or scratches clearly..
- Do include Pictures if possible
- Specify if you offer support, or if you know nothing about the product..
- Do indicate your location < canada, usa, uk, etc.. > and are you willing to ship outside your country !?
- Price, with or without shipping


Do Not :
- Do NOT start multiple posts for the same item
- Do NOT cross post your stuff in other's posts for sale
- Do NOT use other peoples pictures for your items unless you have permission

 

[ebike-kit.nl]

Hi Adrian_sm & All,

Glad to help if I can! Regarding your questions:
1) Can you adjust the assist levels assigned to levels 1-5. From my measurement 5=100%, 4=50%, 3=33%, 2=20%, 1=10%. I find the levels 1-3 are never used.
These settings are set by Manufacturer (and buyer), programmed at manufacturing and it's not possible to change these afterwards

2) Can you disable the PAS while still using a throttle? I found that PAS is only disabled when level=0, but this also disables the throttle. It would be nice to be able to have both PAS and throttle installed and be able to use either independently.
What you can try; P4=1: throttle active after startup and P4=0: Throttle usable at zero km/h start. But it's possible that controller has blocked throttle from startup (according to preffered settings from buyer). Throttle zero km/h startup block is used with weaker motors which get overheated at throttle startup. Which motor do you use? Brand/Model/Volt/Hall-sensor?

3) Is it possible to make the PAS level limit the power for not only PAS assist, but the throttle assist. I would like to have adjustable limit on the throttle power, but the level appears to have no effect.
It's not possible to change this afterwards (parameters defined and set at manufacturing

4) Can you provide more details on advanced parameter P5. I don't understand what thee different number mean.
and our experience is that best you can do is set P5=0. Then battery indicator is set through loaded voltage. You can try the advanced setting, for 36V we always use P5=12. There's a formula (but to be honest, it doesn't really work for us with 36V /11,5Ah Panasonic battery), formula: LVC+P5/3.77. For 24V battery, LVC=20V, P5/3.77=1. For 36V battery, LVC=30V, P5/3.77=1.5. For 48V battery, LVC=40V, P5/3.77=2.

Good luck and let me know your results with P5, and if you have any questions just let me know!

Cheers, Carl

 

[adrian_sm]

Carl,

Thanks for the response.

Good to know that the manufacturer can tweak settings if required. I am in a position to orders hundreds of controllers, so may ask what is possible.

I'll try out a few more settings, to see if they can fix my issues, but no luck so far.

Cheers, Adrian

 

[NiToNi]

I've got a S12S to try with a CST500W. Would the controller be compatible with this PAS:

16 pole PAS

16 magnets should provide for greater granularity than 10 or 12.

I believe I read somewhere that you should change the "rotor alnico number" in the advanced setup menu to the number of magnets in your PAS. I don't know if that is correct but if it is, does it go as high as 16?

 

[adrian_sm]

That PAS will be fine, but won't make much difference to a lower count version. The PAS on my S06P is very crude, basically on or off as soon as it detects pedalling. It does smoothly ramp the power up, and allows the adjustable level of assist which is nice.

I believe the setting in the display menu is just for the motor magnet or speed sensor input, not the PAS. It just makes sure it displays the correct speed based on the motor or wheel rpm.
Since the CST is a geared hub, I would recommend you get the wheel sensor hooked up, so it displays your speed correctly when you do not have the motor running.

 

[-dg]

Our company ebike-kit.nl supplies this LCD display and also suitable controller square or sinewave and for hall/no-hall sensor. The display and controller is great for tongxin and bafang SWXK5 motor.

WIll the sine wave controllers work sensorless? According to the BMS battery site they only have sensorless square wave controllers. I'd really like to get a sensorless small 48V controller so any pointers you can give would be appreciated.

 

[NiToNi]

Thanks Adrian. I have ordered the 16-pole PAS and will give it a shot with the S12S.

The menu setting I meant is the P1 parameter in the advanced setup menu, which should be the "reduction ratio multiplied by the rotor alnico number". So if the rotor alnico number is 16 in my case, what is the reduction ratio for a CST500W...?!

I do have an external speed sensor but the S-LCD can't do my wheel diameter (29") correctly anyway so I'll just have to use GPS for those occasions I care to measure my speed.

By the way, what is the blue cable on the controller that is looped in a short - some kind of speed limiter if open?

 

[adrian_sm]

I haven't played with P1, but it sounds like a motor setting, not a PAS setting. Given the reference to reduction ratio and rotor magnet number.
Manual File Link: https://www.bmsbattery.com/attachment.php?id_attachment=52

Blue cable I think is a speed limit jumper. But I could be wrong.

 

[ebike-kit.nl]

Hi Guys,

Hereby a quick reply on all your questions.

The PAS number of magnets isn't a setup setting.
This controller manufacturer only provides sinewave with motor hall-sensor.
P1 is the motor setting. For Bafang K5/SWXH/BPM motor use P1=87.

Regards, Carl

 

[NiToNi]

The PAS number of magnets isn't a setup setting. P1 is the motor setting. For Bafang K5/SWXH/BPM motor use P1=87.

Thanks, Carl. No, I had actually realised when I gave it a bit more thought that "rotor alnico number" must refer to the pole count of the motor itself and not the PAS.

But if that is the case, then I'm curious how you would derive 87 as your recommendation for the CST500W? According to the manufacturer, the reduction ratio is 1:5 and the pole count is 28:

http://szbaf.com/product.asp?id=2

P1 = 5 x 28 = 140 (unless the reduction ratio should be interpreted as 0.2 which I very much doubt)

For reference, my own S12S came programmed with P1=214 as default.

 

[NiToNi]

.

 

[NiToNi]

Blue cable I think is a speed limit jumper. But I could be wrong.

Interesting. Does anyone know how that would work - before I cut it?

 

[TheBeastie]

Blue cable I think is a speed limit jumper. But I could be wrong.

Interesting. Does anyone know how that would work - before I cut it?

Sheesh, its in my last post on this thread higher up the page that BMSbattery told me that the blue/black cable is cruise control. Hook it up to a button and hit it at a certain speed and it stays.

 

[NiToNi]

Sheesh, its in my last post...

It is indeed - sorry, should've read more carefully

So open = cruise on then while closed = cruise off, right?

 

[TheBeastie]

http://szbaf.com/product.asp?id=2

P1 = 5 x 28 = 140 (unless the reduction ratio should be interpreted as 0.2 which I very much doubt)

For reference, my own S12S came programmed with P1=214 as default.

Sheesh, its in my last post...

It is indeed - sorry, should've read more carefully

So open = cruise on then while closed = cruise off, right?

It seems to be from my testing merely changing to either on or off sets it but I am not sure. I tried it with a button hooked up for one ride and I found got it to work, it seemed to not activate when going above around 25km/h though.

Thanks for the P1 number I have no idea what to put in there till now. I asked BMSbattery support what number to put in for the P1= considering my motor and controller and they just emailed me back the SLCD1 pdf manual and said read the attached file. I think depending on the day you ask for help you can get some one who is more knowledgeable then others, but it seems the main goal is just to reply to the question.

 

[NiToNi]

OK thanks.

I've tried out my S12S now and what I've found is that with my simple thumb throttle (no switches or LEDs etc), if I go WOT for longer than a brief burst, it stays WOT even when I back off on the throttle. Very enerving at first (since I don't have ebrakes) but flicking the throttle wide open again quickly turns it off. Either the throttle has gone wonky or the controller is doing this. It's almost like it goes into cruise control, WOT!

 

[TheBeastie]

Yeah I have noticed some kind of mystery cruise control via thumb throttle. I have been getting it at lower speeds, I am not sure exactly how its triggered but I believe that if you can keep your speed really consistent via the throttle it locks it in, touching the ebrake or changing the throttle releases it. Or you can hit the blue/black wire buttoned.
For me its not easy to trigger but I have triggered it by accident now and then.

 

[d8veh]

Yeah thanks for the suggestions, I figured it out in the end, was right in my face the whole time, it was a dodgey ebrake.

I bought the fancy ebrake sensors, these a good because you don't have to replace your original handbrakes and save wires going to the handlebars.

They have a little red LED on them that I now know is suppose to go on only when you pull the brake, out of the two I have installed one of them was on the whole time, until I unplugged it I thought it was the other way around. So as soon as I unplugged my bad ebrake the whole bike worked flawlessly.

With the Ebrake wire unplugged I hit the throttle the bike took off! PAS works as well.
I ordered 4 of these ebrakes so I will just replace the bad one, the other one for the front brakes works fine. It could be just that the wire is the wrong way around on the bad one, the wires in the ebrake cable are fully hidden under the plug so I cant see if they are around the wrong way, the ebrake plugs were the only plugs where I couldn't see wire color.

There's nothing wrong with that sensor. You've got it the wrong way round. They only work in one direction. Put it at the other end of that exposed part of the cable where it'll work perfectly.

 

[TheBeastie]

There's nothing wrong with that sensor. You've got it the wrong way round. They only work in one direction. Put it at the other end of that exposed part of the cable where it'll work perfectly.

Yeah after I put on another one and it did the exact same thing I figured it can work only one way on the brake cable which turned out to be true. I didn't bother updating my post about it since saying I have it "wired" up wrong could kind of be interpreted as a similar thing.