Toughest, gnarliest, strongest... 26" wheel?

[Phoebus]

I'm looking for something where the wheel won't taco (as easily) nor the spokes break (as often). Stronger the better, and obviously weight is no concern...

This is for a downhill bike converted with a hub motor. I've seen the photos of Stealth Bombers - they obviously have the best wheels I've ever seen on a bike, so I'd love to be able to get ahold of those wheels... does anyone know what they use?

Thank you

 

[Jason27]

Amped bikes has very strong wheels and thick spokes.

 

[ohzee]

I think I would disagree. Amped bikes has done nothing but disappointed me with cheap parts and sub par support.

I already replaced my freewheel & rim from their kit because both failed. They also sent me some replacement spokes
this week which are to short compared to what I used. I even sent them a picture with the old/new spokes and rather
then admit their wrong they wanted me to ship them the broken spokes so they can measure them.

In my opinion Amped Bikes is in over their head and provides crap support and products.

 

[John in CR]

Put a motorcycle rim, spokes, and tire on it and be done with your problems. Then you'll even get to use proper tires that have to meet DOT testing standards instead of the crap bike stuff. FWIW my 17" rims end up as 24" diameter wheels with the street tire I have, so you may be looking for 18" rims but so much is dependent on the tire you mount. While some weight weenies may whine, you'll notice that not a single member ever suggested the opposite (going back to crap unrated, untested, and generally more expensive bicycle rims and tires) after running a proper wheel.

Ebikes are not bicycles, and the sooner people stop treating them as bicycles, the faster ebikes will advance.

 

[ohzee]

Good advice John. When you say that do you mean both front and rear tires or just the rear ?

Sorry for the silly question , but I really don't know. Id love to have a well made rim for a hub motor
that would stay true for longer then a week.

My rim is once again not true and needs some work. Before long I am going to upgrade and hope to do
it right the first time.

 

[John in CR]

Good advice John. When you say that do you mean both front and rear tires or just the rear ?

Sorry for the silly question , but I really don't know. Id love to have a well made rim for a hub motor
that would stay true for longer then a week.

My rim is once again not true and needs some work. Before long I am going to upgrade and hope to do
it right the first time.

Do motorcycles run bicycles tires on one wheel? :wink:

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Put a motorcycle rim, spokes, and tire on it and be done with your problems. Then you'll even get to use proper tires that have to meet DOT testing standards instead of the crap bike stuff. FWIW my 17" rims end up as 24" diameter wheels with the street tire I have, so you may be looking for 18" rims but so much is dependent on the tire you mount. While some weight weenies may whine, you'll notice that not a single member ever suggested the opposite (going back to crap unrated, untested, and generally more expensive bicycle rims and tires) after running a proper wheel.

Ebikes are not bicycles, and the sooner people stop treating them as bicycles, the faster ebikes will advance.[/quote

+1!!

I must agree whole heartedly.

Any E-Bike that is going to be traveling at sustained speeds over 30 MPH really should have a moped or motorcycle rim as a minimum.

If you have any doubt, just take a look at what happens to a bicycle tire when used in just ONE heat by LFP of the Grange race!

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=31157&start=195

img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/nicobie/DSC01910.jpg[/img]

Granted most of us aren't going to be riding anything half that powerful on the street, but the fact is that we are building a totally new vehicle that is no longer safe with just bicycle components on the high end of the speed spectrum.

I have had really good luck with hand built wheels, and I have had mine hit 3 & 4 inch deep pot-holes at 20 & 25 MPH and never even had my wheels come out of true.

I also have an average of about 30lbs of battery, tools & misc stuff in by seat pack, and my bike with new Golden motor weighs about 60lbs.

I had full camping gear before I electrified the bike, (bike alone weighed 150lbs) and with a total bike & rider weight of 330 - 350 lbs, RIGID frame, I have been extremely pleased with my 20 inch front, and 26inch rear wheels build by Sugar Wheels in Portland.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I think I would disagree. Amped bikes has done nothing but disappointed me with cheap parts and sub par support.

I already replaced my freewheel & rim from their kit because both failed. They also sent me some replacement spokes
this week which are to short compared to what I used. I even sent them a picture with the old/new spokes and rather
then admit their wrong they wanted me to ship them the broken spokes so they can measure them.

In my opinion Amped Bikes is in over their head and provides crap support and products.

I must agree that the 12G spoke idea that is used by Amped bikes and many if not most E-Bike kits on the market, is a total failure.

The problem is that the large heavy spokes look tough, and make you think that they are going to do great until after riding a lot of miles over a year or so, and then you start seeing hairline cracks at the rim!

If you want to learn a lot about wheel building, Chalo is our resident expert.

Building a strong wheel is first and foremost about HOW and where you ride.

If you're going to do DH, you need a DH rim.

If your going take that same DH bike, add 30 - 50lbs+ of Ebike motor & battery and expect that same wheel to take the abuse unscathed, you're in for an eventual catastrophic failure.

A good wheel build is just as important to the materials used.

I'm not saying you can't learn to build your own wheels, but I strongly urge you to invest in custom built wheels if you're like me and don't have the experience and knowledge to build one yourself, as a extra heavy wheel with hub motor is a completely different animal than even most bicycle wheel builders are experienced enough to build right especially if you are going to exceed 30 MPH under motor power.

 

[MadRhino]

If you want to keep riding bicycle wheels, Sun Ringle Mammoth Rim and Kenda Nevegal 2.7 Stick-E is the toughest combo that I ever tested.

 

[ohzee]

Uni Motorcycle ?

That's what I figured , but don't see many people make much fuss over the front wheel.

Good info once again thanks.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Uni Motorcycle ?

That's what I figured , but don't see many people make much fuss over the front wheel.

Good info once again thanks.

What a segway aspires to be!

 

[Phoebus]

This is definitely an interesting conversation... One item which I would like some feedback on, in particular:

If you're going to do DH, you need a DH rim.

If your going take that same DH bike, add 30 - 50lbs+ of Ebike motor & battery and expect that same wheel to take the abuse unscathed, you're in for an eventual catastrophic failure.

Well, I am going to do DH. I am not going to be going 30mph under motor power, ever. More like 10-15mph. Max.

I'll be using geared BMC motors, adding about 6-10lbs, if I recall correctly.

I am rather slightly built, coming in around 150lbs, and will only use a .5kW or 1kW battery setup, adding 10-20lbs on top. So the total rider+battery weight should be well in line for what the average DH hub is designed to handle.

It's the added 6-10lb of the BMC motor, with all weight placed directly on the spokes and rim which concerns me. Should I be concerned? Or is the 6-10lb BMC weight low enough?

Thank you for the comments everyone

 

[Phoebus]

Put a motorcycle rim, spokes, and tire on it and be done with your problems. Then you'll even get to use proper tires that have to meet DOT testing standards instead of the crap bike stuff. FWIW my 17" rims end up as 24" diameter wheels with the street tire I have, so you may be looking for 18" rims but so much is dependent on the tire you mount. While some weight weenies may whine, you'll notice that not a single member ever suggested the opposite (going back to crap unrated, untested, and generally more expensive bicycle rims and tires) after running a proper wheel.

Ebikes are not bicycles, and the sooner people stop treating them as bicycles, the faster ebikes will advance.

I definitely may end up going that route... but I would prefer to keep any fabrication required to fit the moto rim&tire to a minimum... Am also interested if increased weight of moto rim impacts heat buildup within the motor?

 

[amberwolf]

It's the added 6-10lb of the BMC motor, with all weight placed directly on the spokes and rim which concerns me. Should I be concerned? Or is the 6-10lb BMC weight low enough?

How heavy would the wheel be without the motor? Thus, how many times more will the wheel mass with the motor hub vs the normal hub? I expect at least two, maybe several times more.

Then, how much does all the total unsprung mass of your regular wheel + fork (or swingarm) weigh? Vs the same thing with the hubmotor?

 

[dogman dan]

I'm going to throw a wrench in the gears here with a blanket statement.

The best rims and spokes in the world will be pretty useless unless you learn to tune your own wheels pretty good. I've got an entire summer now, on a 9c motor with stock spokes and rims. The motor bears the grin logo, so though not expensive, the rim and spokes are at least not the worst avaliable.

Watch some of my vid, and you'll see I don't ride like I'm worried about tacoing my rims. I have a cheap wheel on the front, and the rim on the back looks to me to be a typical double wall, in perhaps the 25 buck retail price range. Power circle logo.
The bike has full suspension, but set stiff because it's cheap. I don't huck. Maybe once in a ride I'll loft a few inches off a bump, but that's it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEsUvvyOIjk

What I did this spring when the wheel was new was get it centered good, adust the spokes for roundness which wasn't much, then side to side. After a few rides it started to loosen up, and I kept on it to keep it straight. I rode it for quite some time with the spokes on the loose side, and after they were fully stretched, then started slowly and gradually tightening them up each time I trued the wheel, about monthly.

Lastly, you may well need more in the way of the best rims and spokes, if you really ride over enough roots and stumps to taco them. My trails are rocky, but mostly nothing I ride fast over is as bad as a street curb. There are some rock staircases on the local trails, but mostly I ride smoother routes on that trail system. If you want to have a motor laced with the best stuff, go to JRH, at Holmes Hobby. He's got tons of experience professionally lacing up motor wheels, and uses the best spokes and such.

 

[Drunkskunk]

+1 to a motorcycle wheel for a bike that will be ridden like a motorcycle.

But for a bike, the Sun Ringle MTX line iswhat you need.
http://www.sun-ringle.com/mtb/rims/mtx39/
I run the MTX33, though the 39 would be an even better match for larger tires.

But more important than the rim is the spokes. 12 guage spokes found on chinese built ebike motors are junk. I found this out like many here the hard way, by breaking many spokes. when relacing my last wheel, I was able to cut the 12 guage with one hand and a set of wire cutters. But when I got to spokes I had replaced with 14 guage DTswiss spokes, I couldn't do it with one hand. It took both hands and a bit of grunting to cut them with those little cutters.

My wheels currently use 14 guage DTswiss spokes, and are far stronger than any Chinese 12 guage wheel. You don't want the spokes to be too thick, as they won't have enough give and can damage the wheel. 14 guage is the heaviest of real Bike spokes. Generaly 13 ansd 12 guage aren't used except in chinese bikes or for cosmetic reasons.

 

[Phoebus]

How heavy would the wheel be without the motor? Thus, how many times more will the wheel mass with the motor hub vs the normal hub? I expect at least two, maybe several times more.

Then, how much does all the total unsprung mass of your regular wheel + fork (or swingarm) weigh? Vs the same thing with the hubmotor?

Interesting...

Most downhill wheels are already a bit burlier than the average bike wheel. The rear rim itself will be over 2lbs plus 2-3lbs for the tire and spokes combined. The swing arm will weigh in at 3-5lbs I suspect, though not all weight of the swing arm is borne by the wheel right? It should be split between the wheel and spring, so call it another 2lbs.

So we're going from ~6+lbs unsprung resting on the spokes to 14lbs...

 

[Icewrench]

I found a local bike shop willing to lace up a few hubmotors.
It is a downhill bike shop with some way cool bikes in there.
I ride in town never off road and not in training for the X games.
I wanted something that would be up to the extra weight and speed and left it up to the guy at the shop to do the rest.
He used Mavic ex721 rims.

 

[ohzee]

So far all the LBS around me are unable to work on DD hub motors. Does it require someone who can machine their own spokes to length ?
If so I can just call around until I find someone able to make spokes. It is pretty frustrating in central Ohio must be nice out on the West
coast with all the options.

 

[Icewrench]

I was looking to replace a broken spoke on a Heinzman hub motor and went to a place that could cut some spokes.
But the spoke was a heavier gauge than they had on hand and referred me to the Downhill Zone.
They took a look at the spoke went back to the machine and cut up two spokes for me on the spot.
For a buck.
I go back there now and then.

 

[johnrobholmes]

I have been racking my brain trying to find the better combo of wheel, particularly for hub motors. Our best choice for affordable stout mountain bike rims with braking surfaces seem to revolve around the DX32 and Large Marge. Mavic makes some really nice rims too. Even so, I always use 13/14 butted spokes to prevent rim destruction. Although 13ga spokes can still build a great wheel, it is difficult to get proper spoke tension without rounding off normal size nipples. Going to 12ga is just a bad plan for any "bicycle" rim that isn't a Worksman Cycle, and they don't carry just rims last I checked.

So where does that leave us for hub motors with ridiculous holes in the flange? Can't use 13 ga spoke heads because they fall through. Washers can work, but some of the hubs like Xlyte have such large holes that a stable wheel can't be built without 12, 11, 10 etc sized spokes. In comes the motorcycle or moped rim. I have been lacing a lot of hub motors into 16 and 17" moped and motorcycle rims lately, typically using 12ga spokes or 13ga with huge nipples depending on situation. The 17" wheel has a slew of light tires available in 75mph ratings. 19" rims also have a few light tires available, but there aren't new rims out there to match.

The next step as I see it: We need light aluminum rims with thicker angled spoke beds. Right now I have been working with standard MTB rims and steel 16 and 17" moped rims with great results, but on the long term steel isn't the ideal solution and bicycle rims just don't cut it for everybody. I am doing what I can to progress our wheels and just sent off some rims to get reproduced in single wall aluminum to fill the gap. I should have some protos in 7 weeks. One in 17" and the other for a mtb tire beadset. Both will be compatible with 12ga spokes, and will be stout enough to tension the wheel properly without rim failure. The 17 will be about two pounds, the MTB weight is yet to be determined. Probably about 35% heavier.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

found this referring to his rocky mountain dh bike.
just remember it's from a drunken o.z. fwiw.

What do i love hate about my bike? The rims it came with (DX32's) weren't that great and buckled and flat-spotted pretty easily. I've since replaced them with Mavic 729's which are awesome.

 

[Lemlux]

My favorite LBS advises that their liability insurance rates would skyrocket if they worked on any bike that had any motor related equipment connected to the hardware they serviced at the time of their service. Their carrier would reclassify the risk from bicycle service to motorcycle service.

On the topic of tires, I find it interesting that the Schwalbe site categorize some of their tires as ebike certified. This is a eurospec for safety at 50 kph. I'm intrigued by the 24 x 2.35 and 26 x 2.35 Crazy Bob's that are load rated for 135 kg and 150 kg, respectively. Does anyone here have any experience with either size?

http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/crazy_bob_e

 

[Kingfish]

Short of running motorcycle rims, I think my setup is quite durable with the 2010 Mavic 729 ES Disc 26”. (I’ve noted that the 2011 models look improved). Kris Holm makes a good wide 26” rim, but try to find one without the holes; they’ve been a source of contention for spawning rim flats. I use the Sapim Single-butted spokes, 2.1 or even 2mm with brass nipples. Since moving to custom rims I have yet to break a spoke, and they’ve remained nice and snug for 3,000 miles (knock wood).

~KF

 

[kmxtornado]

I hear Velocity makes strong rims. Heavy, but strong. I have a 20"er and figure the larger ones will be pretty good too. Just a thought.