Toyota Develops Prototype Battery

[o00scorpion00o]

Very Interesting reading Mitch, thanks!

On An Irish website that installs wind and solar said that a 3kw/hr solar system installed is around 16,000 Euro's in Ireland as of 2010!

I would seriously love a break down of the costs involved, such as the solar panels themselves down to the labour costs. And of course not forgetting the tax of 21% here doesn't help much and should be reduced on renewable energy components!

There is not a single cent in grants available for wind or solar installations here only for solar hot water heating which is ridiculous because for the winter months hot water is heated by your heating system!

Wind is our biggest potential here though by a massive mile, it blows and never freaking stops, one of the reasons I decided to electrify my bike!

Wind turbine installation costs around 15,000 Euro's for a 3kw system too which is way too expensive even with our feet in tariff rate of 9 cent per kwh which is tiny compared to the rest of Europe and considering the kw/hr cost is around 16 Euro cent!

We are only allowed to install 5.5 kw of wind or solar or both, the electricity company say we need 3 phase to go higher which I can't believe considering the amount of watts we can pull from the mains at 220 volts ?

 

[Hillhater]

Sleeping monster of climate change ? Haha I missed something on e.s so!

The climate has been changing all the time on earth.

Oh yea, ..agreed.
The " sleeping monster of Climate Change" i was refering to was the debate on these forums which seems to have nodded off for a few months ! :wink:
Now....shussssh ! ...dont disturb them.

 

[Joseph C.]

HI Robb,

Well there are other sides to the argument of anthropogenic warming, or man made warming.

People should be aware that the highest temperature was recorded in 1998 and has not since been broken, with 2010 being one of the warmest years since 1998, but that record (since satellite records began in 1979) has not been broken.

I think we have reached the stage where many so called scientists have lost credibility and would rather not go against the general beliefs of the scientific community even though it's for science!

There are very compelling arguments of natural variations in the climate such as ocean cycles and sun cycles, and sun cycles is a now proven fact to change climate on earth. The sun is predicted to go into a quiet phase that could last 100 years or more, then ocean cycles are predicted to go into a cool phase, the pacific is now going into a cooler phase and the Atlantic is predicted to follow in the next few years, then there is increased volcanic activity, and high latitude volcano's have an effect on climate too.

One of nasa's newer satellites have also shown that a lot more Co2 escapes the atmosphere than previously thought!

Fusion would be fantastic, but Thorium is a nuclear fuel that used in l.f.t.r reactors has many advantages and slowly people are beginning to realise it. You can't make nukes from it either!

Right way off topic, sorry. I am very interested in the whole man made climate change (theory) and I'm very interested in energy technology.

Someone neglected to tell that to the Glacier's that have been calving faster than ever throwing your 1998 timeline out the window. Those are facts that aren't going to go away anytime soon, Scorpion.

The Petermann Glacier disappeared in two years. The Larsen B Ice Shelf (note this is an ice sheet not a glacier) broke up in five years.

All the glaciers are melting. Within 30 years there will be none left and a minimum of one billion people will be without a water supply in Asia and parts of Europe. And sea levels will rise by 30 cm, enough to wipe out many Island nations so there will also be a geographical displacement. These are all things that appear to be inevitable. You only have to look at old pictures of Glaciers from the 60's and 70's to realise that something serious is afoot here and Solar Cycles (which occur every 11 years, or so, are certainly not the explanation).

Though I will give you that the Sun does have mysterious effects on our weather. I will even concede that the polar caps of Mars have displayed shrinkage for a short period of time in the 2000's.

However, and this is a big however, Mars seems to be only a short-term trend. The melting ice on Earth has been documented to be happening for decades.

 

[Joseph C.]

Sleeping monster of climate change ? Haha I missed something on e.s so!

The climate has been changing all the time on earth.

Oh yea, ..agreed.
The " sleeping monster of Climate Change" i was refering to was the debate on these forums which seems to have nodded off for a few months ! :wink:
Now....shussssh ! ...dont disturb them.

Too late.

 

[AussieJester]

Sleeping monster of climate change ? Haha I missed something on e.s so!

The climate has been changing all the time on earth.

Oh yea, ..agreed.
The " sleeping monster of Climate Change" i was refering to was the debate on these forums which seems to have nodded off for a few months ! :wink:
Now....shussssh ! ...dont disturb them.

Climate change pfft ... man has had little to do with
It, the 'gubmint' saw a buck to be made in
tarrifs and have run with the whole "global warming"
rubbish ever since the earth will continue on its
merry way regardless of mans input...

^^how's That gordo? Roflmao

KiM

 

[Hillhater]

just dashing out for some more beer and popcorn ! :lol: :lol:

 

[Joseph C.]

Climate change pfft ... man has had little to do with
It, the 'gubmint' saw a buck to be made in
tarrifs and have run with the whole "global warming"
rubbish ever since the earth will continue on its
merry way regardless of mans input...

^^how's That gordo? Roflmao

KiM

The Government has nothing to do with it. If it wasn't Climate Change/Global Warming it would be something else for them to latch onto. Whatever characteristics Governments (or probably more in line with reality, Senior Civil Servants [the real puppet masters]) are lacking, opportunism isn't one of them.

 

[Joseph C.]

just dashing out for some more beer and popcorn ! :lol: :lol:

It's getting very late here, oh wait GMT just kicked in again - extra hour gained.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Yeah bloody GMT go away!

Why do they do it? I would rather an extra hour of brightness in the evening, who cares about the mornings?

The old argument of children going to school is crap, these days they are driven to the bloody door!

it's 7 am but my body thinks it's 8 am!

This little monster always has me awake around 5-6am (thank god he isn't aware of the time change hehe! )

If I don't get up to feed him or let him out he will hop up on the locker or press and knock things down to get one of us up.

Anyone who says cats are stupid has never owned one, they are clever little things!

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Someone neglected to tell that to the Glacier's that have been calving faster than ever throwing your 1998 timeline out the window. Those are facts that aren't going to go away anytime soon, Scorpion.

The Petermann Glacier disappeared in two years. The Larsen B Ice Shelf (note this is an ice sheet not a glacier) broke up in five years.

All the glaciers are melting. Within 30 years there will be none left and a minimum of one billion people will be without a water supply in Asia and parts of Europe. And sea levels will rise by 30 cm, enough to wipe out many Island nations so there will also be a geographical displacement. These are all things that appear to be inevitable. You only have to look at old pictures of Glaciers from the 60's and 70's to realise that something serious is afoot here and Solar Cycles (which occur every 11 years, or so, are certainly not the explanation).

Though I will give you that the Sun does have mysterious effects on our weather. I will even concede that the polar caps of Mars have displayed shrinkage for a short period of time in the 2000's.

However, and this is a big however, Mars seems to be only a short-term trend. The melting ice on Earth has been documented to be happening for decades.

I trust satellite data far more than any other data that is of questionable quality!

There were no satellites back before 1979 and so how could we measure the extent of sea ice back then? there are newspaper reports back from Iceland or Canada, not too sure that reported sea ice almost gone in the 1930's and was predicted to totally disappear!

Proof is though if the globe is reaching a tipping point, how come it has not gone past the 1998 record ?

The sea is a great heat storage system and because the Oceans have been in a warm phase over the last few decades, sea ice suffers. look at Ireland for one to know what a warm Atlantic Ocean does for our Climate ? (yeah it's shit, but it's generally very mild for our latitude )

The Pacific ocean is entering a cool phase and the Atlantic is predicted to enter it within the next 20 years or so and Ireland along with much of western Europe will loose it's milder winters, bear in mind most of Europe is much further North than the United States and look at their winters!

A new paper (peer reviewed) has proven a link with lower solar activity to very cold climate in Western Europe in particular because it emphasises high latitude polar blocking keeping low pressure systems well out into the Atlantic but streaming very cold polar air over Western Europe as in winters 08,09,10 and early 11.

The sun is predicted to peak in 2012 after that a possible maunder minimum.

Low solar activity has been linked to a very cold time in Europe in the 1600-1700's and caused widespread devastation here!

Low sun spots has been known since Galileo first discovered them, so the link is there!

Sure low solar activity a few decades of cool then what happens when it goes back to normal ? the warmest dooms day scientists say the earth will bake after the blip as they call it in temps recovers!

The Russians and the Chinese have studies solar activity and it's effects on climate for years!

Co2 levels may be at an all time high no one denies it, but how come the temperatures are back where they were in 2002 or before ? I have not got the latest data on that, but it can easily be found!

We should be baking if you are to believe the man made warming Theory, and lets not forget it is a theory!

What happens to the climate globally when the oceans start to cool along with low solar activity, along with increased high latitude Volcano's?

Co2 is not nearly as damaging to human health as the carcinogenic emissions from the burning of fossil fuels, which is the reason I want to see alternatives. And the fact Europe promotes Diesel as an eco fuel really makes me laugh altogether, and Ireland having reduced tax on Diesel engines because of lower Co2 and the noise of all the tiny little cars now with diesel engines is comical to say the least, all the rattly little tractor cars driving around our towns and cities is more damaging to our health and our ears!

A tiny car like an Opel Corsa or VW Polo with a Diesel engine is so funny, I'd be highly embarrassed if someone saw me in one with a tractor engine, what people have to do to save a few quid!

 

[Joseph C.]

I trust satellite data far more than any other data that is of questionable quality!

There were no satellites back before 1979 and so how could we measure the extent of sea ice back then? there are newspaper reports back from Iceland or Canada, not too sure that reported sea ice almost gone in the 1930's and was predicted to totally disappear!

Proof is though if the globe is reaching a tipping point, how come it has not gone past the 1998 record ?

The sea is a great heat storage system and because the Oceans have been in a warm phase over the last few decades, sea ice suffers. look at Ireland for one to know what a warm Atlantic Ocean does for our Climate ? (yeah it's shit, but it's generally very mild for our latitude )

The Pacific ocean is entering a cool phase and the Atlantic is predicted to enter it within the next 20 years or so and Ireland along with much of western Europe will loose it's milder winters, bear in mind most of Europe is much further North than the United States and look at their winters!

A new paper (peer reviewed) has proven a link with lower solar activity to very cold climate in Western Europe in particular because it emphasises high latitude polar blocking keeping low pressure systems well out into the Atlantic but streaming very cold polar air over Western Europe as in winters 08,09,10 and early 11.

The sun is predicted to peak in 2012 after that a possible maunder minimum.

Low solar activity has been linked to a very cold time in Europe in the 1600-1700's and caused widespread devastation here!

Low sun spots has been known since Galileo first discovered them, so the link is there!

Sure low solar activity a few decades of cool then what happens when it goes back to normal ? the warmest dooms day scientists say the earth will bake after the blip as they call it in temps recovers!

The Russians and the Chinese have studies solar activity and it's effects on climate for years!

Co2 levels may be at an all time high no one denies it, but how come the temperatures are back where they were in 2002 or before ? I have not got the latest data on that, but it can easily be found!

We should be baking if you are to believe the man made warming Theory, and lets not forget it is a theory!

What happens to the climate globally when the oceans start to cool along with low solar activity, along with increased high latitude Volcano's?

I left this a couple of days to foment.

The little ice age lasted 300 years not 100.

Your massaging sources of information to suit your argument, which is illogical. Solar cycles typically last 11 years not three centuries. Many things are linked to the Little Ice Age. One of the more convincing ones is the fact that the human population had been decimated due to the bubonic plague and consequently there was very little agriculture occurring (no methane) and large reforestation removed carbon dioxide from the air. This theory by William Ruddiman has the added weight of being backed up by ice cores. But I digress.

Traditionally, going back over many ice ages, the Sun has had a role on warm and cold cycles on Earth but it has nothing to do with the Sun's cycles which once again only last 11 years on average (not thousands of years). Instead it is the axial tilt of the planet that caused the previous ice ages.

There is photographic evidence of glaciers melting as far back as the start of the last century. This process has been occurring since the 1850's since the end of the Little Ice Age when the human population began to expand again, the industrial revolution gathered a pace and the trees started to get cut down.

In the 1970's the process exponentially increased and there is no getting away from the fact that the glaciers will be gone in the next 20 years or so. You would be hard-pressed to find even one optimistic scientist who believes otherwise.

These are long-term trends in which humans are the principle actors - not Solar Cycles and other such stuff. And you don't need satellite pictures to work this out.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I left this a couple of days to foment.

The little ice age lasted 300 years not 100.

Your massaging sources of information to suit your argument, which is illogical. Solar cycles typically last 11 years not three centuries. Many things are linked to the Little Ice Age. One of the more convincing ones is the fact that the human population had been decimated due to the bubonic plague and consequently there was very little agriculture occurring (no methane) and large reforestation removed carbon dioxide from the air. This theory by William Ruddiman has the added weight of being backed up by ice cores. But I digress.

We all have our ideas and sources of information that we believe or not. Each one may or may not be wrong.

Deforestation is a huge problem, Ireland as you know is a pure example of deforestation and farming has decimated the natural countryside of Ireland! I see deforestation as a bigger threat than Co2 .

By the way this is the latest Satellite based temp data

[imghttp://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/o00scorpion00o/Cell%20Balance/UAHTemp.jpg][/img]

Traditionally, going back over many ice ages, the Sun has had a role on warm and cold cycles on Earth but it has nothing to do with the Sun's cycles which once again only last 11 years on average (not thousands of years). Instead it is the axial tilt of the planet that caused the previous ice ages.

Yes there is the 11 year cycles but also the cycles where the sun goes very quiet with very little sun spots if any at times, and it's these cycles that can last 100 years on average maybe more, I can't say I'm an expert on this topic! But it's been proven the link between low solar activity and colder times.

There is photographic evidence of glaciers melting as far back as the start of the last century. This process has been occurring since the 1850's since the end of the Little Ice Age when the human population began to expand again, the industrial revolution gathered a pace and the trees started to get cut down.

Trees being cut is going back to the Co2 is the cause of warming argument.

The sun, the oceans and volcanic activity and water vapour, cloud cover etc, have more of an impact than the level of Co2 in the atmosphere, also computer models are warm biased. The models are only as good as the physics behind them and they can't have all the answers so they can't be right 100% and no one suggests they are, but too much faith is put into them!

Scientists attitude from what I can see is this, since the industrial revolution Co2 has been increasing and so has warming so then it must be true ? that's not very scientific if you ask me!

How about this ? The earth was warmer than it is now, will cool down again and so on goes the cycle.

In the 1970's the process exponentially increased and there is no getting away from the fact that the glaciers will be gone in the next 20 years or so. You would be hard-pressed to find even one optimistic scientist who believes otherwise.

That's a pretty remarkable prediction, that's like saying in 20 years it won't snow again!

They may disappear or may not, who knows ? they might come back in 100 years or 1000, so what ?

I remember the British Independent printed an article titled "Snowfalls are now just a thing of the past" That article can still be found today on the internet!

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-724017.html

These are long-term trends in which humans are the principle actors - not Solar Cycles and other such stuff. And you don't need satellite pictures to work this out.

Yes long trends, but in 20-30 years after continuous satellite measurements we will have a fair idea of what might be happening, but could it be that maybe there are cycles that go on for hundreds or thousands of years, maybe there doesn't have to be any definitive answer or reason for the climate on Earth. Maybe the cycles are totally irregular and don't have to be cycles as we know them at all ?

Maybe man will never know the answer, Earth may not always have an atmosphere to support life, the earth's core could cool and solidify and the protective magnetic field will cease to exist and the atmosphere will be blown into space by the solar wind! Sure that sounds absurd, but it's possible!

 

[Joseph C.]

I have to do some work-related writing so I'll get back to this later, Scorpion.

Some quick points though.

Trees are giant lumps of carbon (CO2 with the oxygen part removed through photosynthesis). So they have a lot to do with CO2.

As for the prediction, well the reason that they are so certain is that the glaciers are being lost at a rate far, far greater than they are being replenished by snow. So much so that the effect is generally thought to be well-beyond the point of no-return.

As for the core cooling and loosing our magnetic shielding etc. - that's an inevitability not an impossibility. One billion years is the general maximum figure proposed before the Earth becomes lifeless. It will probably happen a lot sooner. Maybe 500,000,000 years. (Unless of course we discover some means of moving the Earth out of the way of the ever-expanding Sun.)

I am no expert either but I do like to take a passing interest.

Without resorting to patronising you or too much man-love. I do really enjoy the debate, Scorpion.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I have to do some work-related writing so I'll get back to this later, Scorpion.

Some quick points though.

Trees are giant lumps of carbon (CO2 with the oxygen part removed through photosynthesis). So they have a lot to do with CO2.

Yes I didn't say they didn't have anything to do with Co2, I was just making the point of the argument being about Co2 being the cause of the warming!

As for the prediction, well the reason that they are so certain is that the glaciers are being lost at a rate far, far greater than they are being replenished by snow. So much so that the effect is generally thought to be well-beyond the point of no-return.

Look at where predictions got us in our economy ? I don't believe and no one can prove sea Ice or ice shelves, glaciers etc, will be gone forever.

The warmer oceans of the last few decades are what caused the melting Ice, the Atlantic, still in it's warm phase may well have been the cause of the melting sea ice in the north, but the ice in the south pole has increased, so there is another theory that it will reverse and the north ice will increase and the south decrease, that is caused by ocean cycles.

The Pacific is heading into a cooler phase and the Atlantic is to follow in the next 10-20 years and another theory is that global temps will drop significantly.

Europe's winters from 08-11 were particularly cold and the winter 2010 broke records in Ireland for low temps, but winter 2010-2011 was the longest spell of cold in many decades caused by high latitude blocking over Greenland, forcing bitter cold polar air over, in particular north western Europe. That has been linked to low solar activity which is what we got the last few years, and it may or may not continue. If the sun goes into another maunder minimum it could mean decades of longer lasting and more brutal winters for Europe and North America! Low solar activity is also linked to increased cloud cover, which adds to further cooling!

There has also been an increase in high latitude volcano's in recent years, that can add to the effects of cooling as well as solar cycles increasing blocking, which keeps low pressure milder air mass away from north west Europe and North America, The oceans store a lot of energy as heat, and when they cool so does the climate.

All these things have an effect, all it takes is a large Volcano such as Katla in Iceland and that has a effect on the climate, recently Katla and Katla can go at any time now and there is evidence to support that!

Ocean cycles, increasing volcanic activity, solar cycles, they all have an effect on climate not just weather as the pro warming people call cool events as just weather and warm events as climate.

Volcano's emit Billions more times the Co2 into the atmosphere that man ever could, if it were not for volcano's it's possible Earth could still be in an ice age! We may even be just at the end of the last ice age and another to begin, by that I mean the ice that's left was there since the last ice age and it may well not get any less and we may be in for another cycle of ice to build over the next thousands of years!

Look at what higher levels of Co2 do for plant life on earth ?

Life on Earth flourishes in warmer times, much more so than in cold.

As for the core cooling and loosing our magnetic shielding etc. - that's an inevitability not an impossibility. One billion years is the general maximum figure proposed before the Earth becomes lifeless. It will probably happen a lot sooner. Maybe 500,000,000 years. (Unless of course we discover some means of moving the Earth out of the way of the ever-expanding Sun.)

Yes it's an inevitability of course, but not in our life time. There is supposed to be a few billion years in the core yet, enough to last us until the sun runs out of fuel in 5 Billion years, I won't have to worry about either events anyway!

I am no expert either but I do like to take a passing interest.

Without resorting to patronising you or too much man-love. I do really enjoy the debate, Scorpion.

YEah me too , obviously!

This has gone a long way away from Toyota's new battery!

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I have to do some work-related writing so I'll get back to this later, Scorpion.

Some quick points though.

Trees are giant lumps of carbon (CO2 with the oxygen part removed through photosynthesis). So they have a lot to do with CO2.

Yes I didn't say they didn't have anything to do with Co2, I was just making the point of the argument being about Co2 being the cause of the warming!

As for the prediction, well the reason that they are so certain is that the glaciers are being lost at a rate far, far greater than they are being replenished by snow. So much so that the effect is generally thought to be well-beyond the point of no-return.

Look at where predictions got us in our economy ? I don't believe and no one can prove sea Ice or ice shelves, glaciers etc, will be gone forever.

The warmer oceans of the last few decades are what caused the melting Ice, the Atlantic, still in it's warm phase may well have been the cause of the melting sea ice in the north, but the ice in the south pole has increased, so there is another theory that it will reverse and the north ice will increase and the south decrease, that is caused by ocean cycles.

The Pacific is heading into a cooler phase and the Atlantic is to follow in the next 10-20 years and another theory is that global temps will drop significantly.

Europe's winters from 08-11 were particularly cold and the winter 2010 broke records in Ireland for low temps, but winter 2010-2011 was the longest spell of cold in many decades caused by high latitude blocking over Greenland, forcing bitter cold polar air over, in particular north western Europe. That has been linked to low solar activity which is what we got the last few years, and it may or may not continue. If the sun goes into another maunder minimum it could mean decades of longer lasting and more brutal winters for Europe and North America! Low solar activity is also linked to increased cloud cover, which adds to further cooling!

There has also been an increase in high latitude volcano's in recent years, that can add to the effects of cooling as well as solar cycles increasing blocking, which keeps low pressure milder air mass away from north west Europe and North America, The oceans store a lot of energy as heat, and when they cool so does the climate.

All these things have an effect, all it takes is a large Volcano such as Katla in Iceland and that has a effect on the climate, recently Katla and Katla can go at any time now and there is evidence to support that!

Ocean cycles, increasing volcanic activity, solar cycles, they all have an effect on climate not just weather as the pro warming people call cool events as just weather and warm events as climate.

Volcano's emit Billions more times the Co2 into the atmosphere that man ever could, if it were not for volcano's it's possible Earth could still be in an ice age! We may even be just at the end of the last ice age and another to begin, by that I mean the ice that's left was there since the last ice age and it may well not get any less and we may be in for another cycle of ice to build over the next thousands of years!

Look at what higher levels of Co2 do for plant life on earth ?

Life on Earth flourishes in warmer times, much more so than in cold.

As for the core cooling and loosing our magnetic shielding etc. - that's an inevitability not an impossibility. One billion years is the general maximum figure proposed before the Earth becomes lifeless. It will probably happen a lot sooner. Maybe 500,000,000 years. (Unless of course we discover some means of moving the Earth out of the way of the ever-expanding Sun.)

Yes it's an inevitability of course, but not in our life time. There is supposed to be a few billion years in the core yet, enough to last us until the sun runs out of fuel in 5 Billion years, I won't have to worry about either events anyway!

I am no expert either but I do like to take a passing interest.

Without resorting to patronising you or too much man-love. I do really enjoy the debate, Scorpion.

YEah me too , obviously!

This has gone a long way away from Toyota's new battery!

 

[dnmun]

and nothing to do with reality. for all this talk of energy technology, seems like no knowledge at all of the use of CNG and LNG as the fuel of the future, or even of a comprehension of how it is gonna happen. maybe you can google up how much CNG is used in the rest of the world, pakistan, iran, argentina, lead the list. why is that not part of this extensive knowledge of energy technology? pie in the sky fuel cells will be just that, in the sky on spacecraft. nobody is gonna build new reactors except the chinese and they will scale back as they develop shale gas resources in china.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

and nothing to do with reality. for all this talk of energy technology, seems like no knowledge at all of the use of CNG and LNG as the fuel of the future, or even of a comprehension of how it is gonna happen. maybe you can google up how much CNG is used in the rest of the world, pakistan, iran, argentina, lead the list. why is that not part of this extensive knowledge of energy technology? pie in the sky fuel cells will be just that, in the sky on spacecraft. nobody is gonna build new reactors except the chinese and they will scale back as they develop shale gas resources in china.

I Completely agree with you on the use of CNG, I'm not aware of any forecourts selling it, or any CNG cars!

It might have a lot to do with cost and availability of the gas.

But I would rather see CNG cars in towns and cities any day compared to Diesel, even though Diesel cars and fuel is much cleaner to the old diesel of the past, it's still very harmful to health, and diesels are getting too complicated and expensive to make!

There is around 1.4 million natural gas cars in Europe. Very little here as far as I can see. It's supposed to be 30% cheaper too!

I think the change to electric drive would, for me would be better on a cost to run basis and even though most of our energy comes from fossil fuels, most cars would charge by night increasing the efficiency of the generating stations because they have to be kept running anyway to keep the steam going. Our wind resources are huge, but the cost of wind energy is huge too, but capacity is growing!

And it would keep emissions out of the towns and cities.

Tumbling solar prices might be a game changer also!

Having said that a few l.F.T.R reactors could save millions of acres of land from the sight of turbines!

 

[Hillhater]

...I Completely agree with you on the use of CNG, I'm not aware of any forecourts selling it, or any CNG cars!

It might have a lot to do with cost and availability of the gas.

CNG is generally confined to commercial vehicles, trucks, buses, fork lifts, etc. However there are some domestic cars using CNG..Europe has some, and the USA has had the Honda Civic CNG for several years
The "gas" in CNG is common Natural gas as used for domestic heating etc,.. and as such is one the the most common and widely available fuels. CNG cars can be refueled at home, in your own garage, at domestic gas prices. ( cheap !) which is why Big OIL dont want then easily available to everyone !
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/

 

[panurge]

Hi guys

Interesting thread....
I have both CNG and LPG cars, here in italy we have the bigger european vehicle-park using these gas as fuels (2.300.000 LPG/CNG cars against 2000, yes 2000 , electrics)

My Opel corsa ('92) is a 1.2cc 4 cylinders gasolyne engines with an installed CNG system....nothing compare with this car in cost per Km....It has about 400km CNG range (plus all the gasoline tank for a total of +1200Km) and I've made Florence-Berlin trips with 50 Euros of CNG with a cost of 0,04 Euro per Km (16 Euros for 400Km). In gasoline mode the cost is 4x more times.
The CNG in the tank is at 220 atm (3233.1 PSI) so the house refueling isn't so easy it use an expensive/consumptive device to compress the CH4 from the low home pressure level to 220atm and take half day to refill a tank like mine...also, here, CNG's home prices are higher than Automotive CNG's ones, and in most countries is not permitted a self CNG refueling.

The bad is that the car has near 100 Kilos of 220atm bomb-tanks in the rear axle and no space for bags...and of course a 15% of performances loss....also there are not a lot of CNG Stations...

In the other hand I have a VW Passat ('94) with a 2.9cc 6 Cylinder gasoline engine with an LPG system that has 250 km of LPG range (plus the gasoline tank) and cost per Km is "only" halved compared to gasoline, but less performance loss and no space loss with a toroidal tank hosted in the spare wheel housing, and stations are a lot more here....
LPG pressure is lower (3-6 atm) so an house refueling could be possible, however, It's forbidden and house LPG is not so common or cheap too.....also LPG is not a natural gas, is made by petrol and has not a "clean" burn as CH4 (CNG) or better H2 have.

Hydrogen seems really like CNG to be used in cars, high pressure (so similar tank) and also a similar refueling connection is used....(we have maybe 10 H2 cars here in Tuscany and 2 H2 stations.... )

As For PV I can report my experience, here, PV total costs are high, mostly for a small KWattage like 3 Kw....but....

I have a 20Kw PV ground station that's expensive but I've not spent a penny cause a bank pay for all, (I mean 100% of the investment, installation, insurance and grid connection included) having in exchange an estimated 8 years of my energy production (excluded my needs that are covered from the beginning).

My favorite car is My HJ61, However....is a 4000cc Turbocharged 6 Cyl diesel Engine, made by Toyota in the '87, it's from 4 to 11 Km per liter of oil depending on surfaces and speed, though ....A dream would be to electrify another identical landcruiser chassis with these Toyota batteries , one day....

Jules

 

[dnmun]

one of my pickups is a 1984 mitsubishi turbodiesel, 2.3L, gets about 35mpg.

it is impossible for us to convert vehicles to CNG in the US because of the EPA regulations against it. which is the ultimate irony, the cleanest vehicle fuel available but they block it's implementation as a transport fuel.

even the secretary of the energy department is against using CNG as a transport fuel. this is one of the few areas where we suffer from regulations just as much as the italians.

 

[Joseph C.]

Hi guys
I have a 20Kw PV ground station that's expensive but I've not spent a penny cause a bank pay for all, (I mean 100% of the investment, installation, insurance and grid connection included) having in exchange an estimated 8 years of my energy production (excluded my needs that are covered from the beginning).

Hi Jules, I love the way you just dropped that in there without explanation.

How the hell are you getting a bank to pay for nearly all of your energy needs for free? What parallel world are you living on and, more importantly, how do I get there?

 

[Hillhater]

....it is impossible for us to convert vehicles to CNG in the US because of the EPA regulations against it. which is the ultimate irony, the cleanest vehicle fuel available but they block it's implementation as a transport fuel.

even the secretary of the energy department is against using CNG as a transport fuel. ..

Strange , is that a local state thing ? ..since California obviously doent block its use. ..nor several other states ??
..& Its only a policy & regulation because of Big Oils power and influence.

 

[TylerDurden]

it is impossible for us to convert vehicles to CNG in the US because of the EPA regulations against it. which is the ultimate irony, the cleanest vehicle fuel available but they block it's implementation as a transport fuel.

Interesting.

I drove an '09 CNG Chevy Suburban to Maker Fair NYC.

Seems possible to get the conversion.

Arranging for fuel is not that easy in some places.

 

[panurge]

Hi guys
I have a 20Kw PV ground station that's expensive but I've not spent a penny cause a bank pay for all, (I mean 100% of the investment, installation, insurance and grid connection included) having in exchange an estimated 8 years of my energy production (excluded my needs that are covered from the beginning).

Hi Jules, I love the way you just dropped that in there without explanation.

How the hell are you getting a bank to pay for nearly all of your energy needs for free? What parallel world are you living on and, more importantly, how do I get there?

Hi Joseph

Starting to say that Italy has much more insolation compared to Ireland, usually banks cover from 80% to 100% of the investment here for >15Kw, having as refund the energy produced by the installed plant in 8-12 years depending on the station's characteristics...minus your local energy needs. The hard thing here is to obtain authorizations from the authorities to instal such of ground PV plant but having a local bank and a local installer involved gives an helping support for bureaucracy if it's possible. The government's and/or local $$ incentive is an indispensable part for this kind of investment though.....until PV's cost per Watt is dropped down.....

Italy has been a pioneer in automotive CNG, when in the '60 the ENI-AGIP national petrol agency was trying to get an independent rule in the world petrol corporations race (suicidal strategy for someone, indeed, but which some of the benefits are still presents today in Italy) ....so after 40+ years of use, a lot of people works in this area with more than 2.000.000 working cars...and a 1000-1500 euros is the typical conversion cost for a 4 cylinder engine....In the last years Germany has reached and passed the Italian stations number, but the rules for a CNG conversion are more severe so the italian CNG fleet is still bigger....only in the last 10 years when some of the european car companies offered CNG models Germany moved to a develop in distribution.....(in Germany you can self-refuel a CNG tank at a station 24h, today....)

Jules

 

[Hillhater]

usually banks cover from 80% to 100% of the investment here for >15Kw, having as refund the energy produced by the installed plant in 8-12 years depending on the station's characteristics...minus your local energy needs.

Thats either an enlightened approach to clean power generation,.. or a reckless fiscal policy intended to appease the green faction ..?
but , boy wouldnt you just love to have that opportunity ! 8) :wink: