spinningmagnets
100 TW
Security camera footage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytHe8aJyjfk&feature=youtu.be
[youtube]ytHe8aJyjfk[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytHe8aJyjfk&feature=youtu.be
[youtube]ytHe8aJyjfk[/youtube]
Train derailment in Spain, 24 July 2013, over 70 dead
- Thread starter spinningmagnets
- Start date
dnmun
1 PW
two engineers in a row causing accidents through their negligence. first was the canadian train engineer who uncoupled the oil tankers and left them to roll downhill into the town while he went home to sleep and now this guy driving 100kph over the maximum speed allowed in the turn coming out of the tunnel.
there was once a time when men really did do a professional job as an engineer. now they just go hide behind lawyers and union officers.
there was once a time when men really did do a professional job as an engineer. now they just go hide behind lawyers and union officers.
dnmun
1 PW
it will take years for the investigation to be completed. this is spain we are talking about. the maximum allowed speed on this curve coming out of the tunnel is 80 kph.
the engineer who uncoupled the oil tankers never made any statement to the investigators and was not tested for the amount of alcohol still in his blood at the time of the accident since he had already disappeared. i don't think he has been questioned even yet.
but already we have people here on the sphere talking about how it is a fault of the railroads hauling oil in tankers. it is amazing when people are so brainwashed about 'evil oil' that they cannot analyze reality when presented in real time. i said then and repeat it now, this was negligence of the first order by professional engineers and they should go to jail.
but they don't arrest people in cars for running over bicyclists either so i doubt if they do anything to these guys.
the engineer who uncoupled the oil tankers never made any statement to the investigators and was not tested for the amount of alcohol still in his blood at the time of the accident since he had already disappeared. i don't think he has been questioned even yet.
but already we have people here on the sphere talking about how it is a fault of the railroads hauling oil in tankers. it is amazing when people are so brainwashed about 'evil oil' that they cannot analyze reality when presented in real time. i said then and repeat it now, this was negligence of the first order by professional engineers and they should go to jail.
but they don't arrest people in cars for running over bicyclists either so i doubt if they do anything to these guys.
You're absolutely correct. He was completely negligent. This guy too. Could've been a load of grain for all it matters. It still would've crashed. And these scandals only make the possibility of bullet trains in America less and less likely. Very similar to the effect of Chernobyl and Three Mile Island on nuclear power.
dnmun
1 PW
nope, not at all like 3 mile island or chernobyl which had instability at low power which led to the critcality event. 3 mile island was the result of a valve being locked closed when it needed to be opened remotely and could not be opened because of the lock.
this is just another case of someone talking on the phone:
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- Officials who are investigating the deadly train crash in Spain last week that left 79 people dead said "black box" data recorders show the driver was on the phone during the time of the accident, according to news reports. Francisco Jose Garzon Amo, the train operator, was allegedly speaking to others at the train company during the time of the crash, the news reports said. He has been released from the hospital but was provisionally charged with negligent homicide, according to news reports.
this is just another case of someone talking on the phone:
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- Officials who are investigating the deadly train crash in Spain last week that left 79 people dead said "black box" data recorders show the driver was on the phone during the time of the accident, according to news reports. Francisco Jose Garzon Amo, the train operator, was allegedly speaking to others at the train company during the time of the crash, the news reports said. He has been released from the hospital but was provisionally charged with negligent homicide, according to news reports.
MikeFairbanks
100 kW
Obviously, the operator should never be allowed to drive a train again or even work in the industry in any fashion.
However, charging him with any kind of manslaughter crime isn't going to help anyone, including future train operations.
If he would have been drunk or on illegal drugs, that would be something entirely different, but if he was sober, talking to supervisors, and simply lost track of time, then he made an honest mistake that any of us could make.
One time I caused a crash that I wasn't involved in, and thankfully it was very low speed. I was entering a freeway on an onramp that curved counter-clockwise almost a full circle before swinging around again clockwise. It was essentially an S-turn and just as curvy as an "S."
I was moving a bit too fast and several cars were behind me. It was raining, and in Southern California oil builds up on the roads (because we sometimes went weeks and months without rain).
I put on my brakes (65 Mustang) and the back end began to slide (there isn't much weight back there and I probably didn't have good tires). My back end was about to be perpendicular to the road, so I let off the brake, and by luck the back end caught, and by this time I lost enough speed so that before I knew it, I was going proper again.
However, I looked in my rear-view mirror and saw a bunch of cars piling up behind me as they did the same thing I did, but with impact (or, at least, that's how my memory serves).
I was about 18, so it was almost thirty years ago. I kept driving, not sure if it was my responsibility to stop or if I even had any legal fault in the matter (they were following too closely to each other).
Long story short: Had someone died (which I doubt, because we were going about 20-30mph at the most), it would have been fair to say, "He will never drive a car again."
But prison? For an honest accident? I think that's too severe.
But, again, I don't have all the facts. All I'm hearing is that he was on the phone with headquarters and lost track of time and speed.
However, charging him with any kind of manslaughter crime isn't going to help anyone, including future train operations.
If he would have been drunk or on illegal drugs, that would be something entirely different, but if he was sober, talking to supervisors, and simply lost track of time, then he made an honest mistake that any of us could make.
One time I caused a crash that I wasn't involved in, and thankfully it was very low speed. I was entering a freeway on an onramp that curved counter-clockwise almost a full circle before swinging around again clockwise. It was essentially an S-turn and just as curvy as an "S."
I was moving a bit too fast and several cars were behind me. It was raining, and in Southern California oil builds up on the roads (because we sometimes went weeks and months without rain).
I put on my brakes (65 Mustang) and the back end began to slide (there isn't much weight back there and I probably didn't have good tires). My back end was about to be perpendicular to the road, so I let off the brake, and by luck the back end caught, and by this time I lost enough speed so that before I knew it, I was going proper again.
However, I looked in my rear-view mirror and saw a bunch of cars piling up behind me as they did the same thing I did, but with impact (or, at least, that's how my memory serves).
I was about 18, so it was almost thirty years ago. I kept driving, not sure if it was my responsibility to stop or if I even had any legal fault in the matter (they were following too closely to each other).
Long story short: Had someone died (which I doubt, because we were going about 20-30mph at the most), it would have been fair to say, "He will never drive a car again."
But prison? For an honest accident? I think that's too severe.
But, again, I don't have all the facts. All I'm hearing is that he was on the phone with headquarters and lost track of time and speed.
It's a bit more complicated than the initial reporting suggested. Apparently he was on the phone to the rail company telling them the speed shortly before the crash.
Those trains are designed to brake automatically if they go a certain amount over the speed limit irrespective of the driver's actions.
Even if the driver was culpable there was something wrong with the train and that points to maintenance/manufacturing. Which in turn points to a systems failure which further points to a management failure. Who knows where that rabbit hole will finally end?
Those trains are designed to brake automatically if they go a certain amount over the speed limit irrespective of the driver's actions.
Even if the driver was culpable there was something wrong with the train and that points to maintenance/manufacturing. Which in turn points to a systems failure which further points to a management failure. Who knows where that rabbit hole will finally end?
The train black box reveals that the train "crashed" at 153 Km/h, there was a break that brought the train from 190 down to 153 before the crash. At the time the driver was speaking to a company colleague by phone and was receiving instructions about where to go after the next stop. Background noise on the audio tape shows the driver was consulting a paper document while speaking to the colleague.
The railroad administration company released a few details on on-going investigations. It says that the more advanced security system (known as ERTMS) is installed in 80 Km of the track piece where the accident occurred, but that it cannot be used by the train Alvia for lack of certification [note: I don't know if Alvia is the name of the particular train that crashed or if is a model of trains]. Instead of ERTMS, Alvia is monitored by the older and less secure ASFA system, a bit more permeable to human error. ASFA is, however, considered adequate for Alvia because of the train's natural speed limit of 200 Km/h. Some specialists consider that the ERTMS system would have prevented the crash, although the opinion is not consensual.
Free translation of excerpts from here (Portuguese): http://www.publico.pt/mundo/noticia/renfe-e-gestor-da-rede-ferroviaria-espanhola-reveem-protocolos-de-seguranca-1601757
Unofficial sources say the driver told the judge, in last sunday's hearing, that the accident was due to human error, he thought he was in a different part of the rail road and ended up breaking too late.
The railroad administration company released a few details on on-going investigations. It says that the more advanced security system (known as ERTMS) is installed in 80 Km of the track piece where the accident occurred, but that it cannot be used by the train Alvia for lack of certification [note: I don't know if Alvia is the name of the particular train that crashed or if is a model of trains]. Instead of ERTMS, Alvia is monitored by the older and less secure ASFA system, a bit more permeable to human error. ASFA is, however, considered adequate for Alvia because of the train's natural speed limit of 200 Km/h. Some specialists consider that the ERTMS system would have prevented the crash, although the opinion is not consensual.
Free translation of excerpts from here (Portuguese): http://www.publico.pt/mundo/noticia/renfe-e-gestor-da-rede-ferroviaria-espanhola-reveem-protocolos-de-seguranca-1601757
Unofficial sources say the driver told the judge, in last sunday's hearing, that the accident was due to human error, he thought he was in a different part of the rail road and ended up breaking too late.
You completely misread my post. I was saying the PR effect will be similar against further building of high speed trains in the US. Much as those accidents decreased further adoption of nuclear power. Pretty sure my post was pretty clear man.dnmun said:
dnmun
1 PW
they do. my point about the accident is it was caused by a lack of attention to performing his job because he was on the phone yakking. no matter who he was talking to, he failed as an operator.
the criticality at chernobyl was an unexpected event while the operators were testing the capacity of the reactor to perform at very low power levels and they lost the ability to control it, not because they were not paying attention. just cowboy engineering as my boss would say. russian engineer style.
the 3 mile island overheating was because a valve had been left locked closed after it had been locked during a previous maintenance.
it now is apparent that the events at fukashima were also entirely avoidable. the generators in the basement of the building outside were recognized as a failure mode and a new generator backup was built above the maximum flood level but the power lines were never raised above the flood level and remained in a vault that ended up flooding itself so the backup generators that did not flood were of no use. it turns out that the reason TEPCO never built the power vault above flood stage was because they were afraid of public demonstrations against the building of the new power switching vault by the anti nuclear activists in japan. so they decided to put off the decision to build the power switching station above the worst case flooding. ishikawa died of cancer just a few weeks ago. he may have saved the world from even worse management decisions by the TEPCO bosses by refusing to stop flooding the reactor with sea water.
the engineers at morton thiokol told their bosses they were opposed to the challenger launch but management decided they knew best. but in reality they were themselves under pressure from NASA to launch so reagan could talk to them in orbit while giving his state of the union address. schedules are killers.
the criticality at chernobyl was an unexpected event while the operators were testing the capacity of the reactor to perform at very low power levels and they lost the ability to control it, not because they were not paying attention. just cowboy engineering as my boss would say. russian engineer style.
the 3 mile island overheating was because a valve had been left locked closed after it had been locked during a previous maintenance.
it now is apparent that the events at fukashima were also entirely avoidable. the generators in the basement of the building outside were recognized as a failure mode and a new generator backup was built above the maximum flood level but the power lines were never raised above the flood level and remained in a vault that ended up flooding itself so the backup generators that did not flood were of no use. it turns out that the reason TEPCO never built the power vault above flood stage was because they were afraid of public demonstrations against the building of the new power switching vault by the anti nuclear activists in japan. so they decided to put off the decision to build the power switching station above the worst case flooding. ishikawa died of cancer just a few weeks ago. he may have saved the world from even worse management decisions by the TEPCO bosses by refusing to stop flooding the reactor with sea water.
the engineers at morton thiokol told their bosses they were opposed to the challenger launch but management decided they knew best. but in reality they were themselves under pressure from NASA to launch so reagan could talk to them in orbit while giving his state of the union address. schedules are killers.
My point is eliminate the human, eliminate human error. I don't know why you keep bringing the nuclear accidents up, I literally was just using that as a comparison to the public idea of high speed trains. Not what caused them, I was quite aware of that.
dnmun
1 PW
like i said, there is already computer control of low speed trains on all the major US rail roads. it has virtually eliminated 'human error' as you call it. it was not human error that caused this train wreck, it was negligence, not error.
it was negligence that put flight 224 on the seawall in san fransisco, not human error. error is when the action is incorrect or misplaced.
negligence is when the operator is not maintaining control and is doing something other than he is expected to do in operating his train or plane.
it is not human error that allows cars to run over bikes while they are texting, it is willful negligence.
it was negligence that put flight 224 on the seawall in san fransisco, not human error. error is when the action is incorrect or misplaced.
negligence is when the operator is not maintaining control and is doing something other than he is expected to do in operating his train or plane.
it is not human error that allows cars to run over bikes while they are texting, it is willful negligence.
MikeFairbanks
100 kW
My point was that I don't think the guy should go to prison.
I seriously doubt he ever had malice toward passengers.
A crappy engineer? Yep, he stinks. fire him. Never let him work in transportation again. He can flip burgers and sweep floors.
But prison? That won't help anyone.
I seriously doubt he ever had malice toward passengers.
A crappy engineer? Yep, he stinks. fire him. Never let him work in transportation again. He can flip burgers and sweep floors.
But prison? That won't help anyone.
friendly1uk
1 MW
It is manslaughter. Same if I wire your cooker up wrong and it kills you. Not the same if you wire up mine and it kills me. The difference is the driver and I are qualified to do this job where safety comes first. You take on the responsibility the moment you qualify. Trainee's can kill people, but responsible people can't. It is a weight you have to carry. He is responsible. That is his job.
Anyone that thinks he don't deserve jail should let me come and electrocute there family. I in turn will laugh, Asking why should I get in trouble for it. Then you might understand. You pay the right man to do it properly, and you do expect him to be responsible for his actions. That is why he is on big wages for doing what seems like nothing.
Employ an uneducated man and he can make mistakes. Professionals are responsible for there actions.
Anyone that thinks he don't deserve jail should let me come and electrocute there family. I in turn will laugh, Asking why should I get in trouble for it. Then you might understand. You pay the right man to do it properly, and you do expect him to be responsible for his actions. That is why he is on big wages for doing what seems like nothing.
Employ an uneducated man and he can make mistakes. Professionals are responsible for there actions.
spinningmagnets
100 TW
This was not an isolated incident, a review of security camera footage shows...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rain-drivers-sleeping-and-reading-a-book.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rain-drivers-sleeping-and-reading-a-book.html
