TSDZ2 - 48V vs 52V Battery and Display advice

[fietstasss]

Hi all,

I'm planning to convert a bike to an e-bike, using a TSDZ2 kit.
What I'd like to achieve is maximum power/speed/acceleration (somehow prioritized over range), and maximum tweakability using open source firmware. The kit will be used on a normal 'city-bike' first, but probably soon it will be moved to a Mountain bike to go into the (offroad) forests, next to some normal road-driving.
I've read a lot and then even more about it, but some questions remain unanswered or sound contradictory to each other.
It's worth mentioning that tweaking and improving this kind of stuff with for instance Firmware changes or thermal-improvements is quite my cup of tea, i really like fiddling with this kind of aspects on such a project. :lol:

1.
If I'm correct, the best setup to get full power with the least amount of heat-production is to use the 48V motor with an 52V battery. This motor can than be flashed with one of the Open Source Firmware versions to gain maximum capacity and still prevent overheating by adding a temperature sensor/control. Is that correct?

2.
I do see some 52V motors advertised now and then, what's the difference between those and the 48V motors?

3.
Also, i'm not really getting the several different OSF (Open Source Firmware)-versions, have seen a version using the VLCD-5/6 and xh18 screen, and one using the 850C/860C/SW102 displays. On the wiki of the VLCD-type OSF, i've seen some software application where all kind of parameters could be filled in easily, is this also something thats available in the OSF for 850C/860C?

Thanks for all your help and answers in advance!

 

[Elinx]

......

1.
... use the 48V motor with an 52V battery. .... prevent overheating by adding a temperature sensor/control.

2.
....what's the difference between those and the 48V motors?

3.
Also, i'm not really getting the several different OSF (Open Source Firmware)-versions,.....

Hi fietstasss, nice to see you here too.
About your questions
Yes, it is possible to overvoltage the motor without damage. The controller and mechanical parts are for all motors the same.
Only difference is the bare motor which could be 36V or 48V 4000 RPM. The current and powerlimits are done by the firmware. So 500W is exactly the same motor as 750W.
Overvoltage has the advantage that with the same power there is less current through the coils and so on less heating.
It is even possible to run the 36V motor on 52V if you keep the max. current low enough.
Another advantage of overvoltage is a higher RPM and with that, a higher possible cadence.

For overheating, a temperature sensor is limiting the power when the heat is too much (at cost of the throttle).
If you want to prevent this behaviour you must also add some heat conductive material inside the housing.
See this topic for a collection improvements. Also the one from the wiki.

There are different OSF versions, but all are build on the same base OSF that was developed for KTLCD3
The choice for another display was given that you can setup the tsdz2 complete from the display
You must flash the controller and display with new firmware and can change motor settings when biking.
The 850C/860C/SW102 version is a follow up because these displays has more memory, so more features where possible.
Everything can and must be done with the display.

For use with the stock display's VLCD5/VLCD6/XH18 you flash only the controller.
That's why it's necessary to insert your settings before you flash the controller with the PC. This could be done with notepad, but is much easier with the Java configurator.
With the latest version v.0.20b1 (exactly the same as KTLCD3 version) it is still possible to change some settings with the stock display, but is less handy.
If you want to try out OSF, than is this the most easy solution, but you miss the latest features from 850/860/102 displays.
If that is no problem and you are satified you keep it, otherwise you easy can go back to stock firmware or you choose for another display.

 

[Alfie]

This has also partly answered a question I was also about to ask.

What you are saying is that with the 860c display you can change the voltage from 48v to 52v without having to reflash the firmware!!! The reason I ask is I have 48v & 52v battery and would like to switch between them.

 

[Elinx]

...change the voltage from 48v to 52v without having to reflash the firmware!!! ....

If you reflash to a version of OSF the limitations you have, are set by yourself.
The reason you must setup the voltage has to do with the reading of the batterycharge and the cutoff voltage.
Here is a video of Jbalat that shows the difference between the use of 36V and 48V battery for the cadence.
On 4:48 you see he changed the batteryvoltage from 36V to 48V on a KTLCD3. With the 860C this will be about the same.

For the stock display OSF version there is no option to change on the fly, so if you want to change between 48V an 52V batteries, you must be creative with the settings before you flash the controller and read the batteryvoltage on the display to judge about the chargelevel. In this case if you set it up for 48V (13S), realize to change the 52V (14S) battery if the voltage is dropped to 42V.

 

[fietstasss]

Thanks for your reply!
I'm going to try and find a kit which ships from EU, preferably with the 850C or maybe even the SW102 directly included.

(4.)Next to these possible choices/options in the OSF, is there any reason to choose an 48V system over an 52V system?
Maybe something like pricing/costs/anything?

Also, I'm planning to order a motor (with the 48V winding) on short term, so it will be here in the christmas-holidays.
Next to that I'm planning to build my own battery or batteries;

I'd like to build one small battery, like 280-350Wh (LG HG2 perhaps?) or something like that for short rides, where I'd prefer to be 'stealth-like', so this small battery pack would hide in a saddle bag or anything like that. Also this would reduce my initial costs for the battery, while already being able to start happy-biking .
(5.) Is this size any good, or really to small to be usable? Let's say for around ~15km (~10miles) rides on flat ground, giving about 50% boost to the human input power?
If i understood correctly, it's ok to count roughly 10-15Wh/km (upright bike, ~30km/h (=~19mi/hr), flat ground).
With those numbers and basing on a 288Wh (13S2P with LG HG2) battery pack, taking 15Wh/km, this would mean

288/15 = 19.2km

So, about 19km (~12 mi) of range at 30 km/h, is this correct?


Later on I might build another battery pack which would hold a fair bit more capacity, like around 800-1200Wh, probably using something like the LG MJ1's or so.

A few questions about this:
(6.) Is it possible to use these battery packs together later on? Like, putting them parallel to combine the capacity/range?

(7.) What should I look after when buying an BMS for firstly the small, but also the bigger battery-pack?

(8.) Do the above mentioned LG HG2 for the smaller pack, and LG MJ1 for the bigger pack sound reasonable? I've picked them mainly on their capacity in mAh and discharge ratings:
(Type, Capacity, Max Discharge Rating)
LG HG2: 3000mAh, 20A
LG MJ1: 3500mAh, 10A

 

[Alfie]

I have built a 13s2p using Samsung 40T 21700. It's a great little battery 48v 8ah 384w. I have been getting 18 - 22miles out of it depending on where I ride. it sits at the bottom of the frame in a fame pack.

 

[casainho]

A few questions about this:
(6.) Is it possible to use these battery packs together later on? Like, putting them parallel to combine the capacity/range?

I was looking to travel by plane with my ebike and I was prepared to build 100KWh battery packs and then put in parallel in the destination (planes has limit of 100KWh batteries). The 860C or SW102 displays are ideal because you can immediately change the battery characteristics, like battery low voltage limit and max current limits.

We are also developing the fully wireless TSDZ2 and I hope soon (1 or 2 months) the have the very first working version installed on my ebike and do a public release - this is the mobile app but maybe the most interesting will be the wireless remote and brake sensors, as also the EBike wirelss displays, but yes, this mobile app will also work as display and remote:

[youtube]QU4JChGzGE4[/youtube]

 

[Elinx]

.....
.. ships from EU, preferably with the 850C or maybe even the SW102 directly included.

If you want to flash OSF don't buy a "new 2020" edition with vlcd7, such as EnerProf sells. These Tsdz2's has another controller and you can't flash them. The stock FW looks of these motor is a bit more refined than the old stock FW, but the settings are EU standard too.
Chinese PSWpower.com ships from Germany too with only three days delivery. imho they sell the old model till now.
From China you have more options and it is possible to pay a fee for customs, so you haven't this problem.
Delivery is a bit longer (7 to 10 days).

..... any reason to choose an 48V system over an 52V system?

An 48V system is exactly the same as a 52V, only the controller is reprogrammed with modified firmware. If you use OSF than there is no reason to choose for 52V

.. small battery, like 280-350Wh (LG HG2 perhaps?) or something like that for short rides, ............. around ~15km (~10miles) ....
...288Wh.... about 19km (~12 mi) of range at 30 km/h, is this correct?

I have 36V version and 380Wh, with 28km/h I can go for about 50km on Dutch flat roads.
I am thinking about to add a small 2S pack under the sadle for an Voltage of about 43V for a bit higher cadence.

........
... use these battery packs together later on? Like, putting them parallel to combine the capacity/range?

I think you can combine what you want.You als can also think of more small batteries that you can change for a bigger range.

...What should I look after when buying an BMS for firstly the small, but also the bigger battery-pack? ....

I haven't experience with diy building, maybe other people have.

 

[fietstasss]

A few questions about this:
(6.) Is it possible to use these battery packs together later on? Like, putting them parallel to combine the capacity/range?

I was looking to travel by plane with my ebike and I was prepared to build 100KWh battery packs and then put in parallel in the destination (planes has limit of 100KWh batteries). The 860C or SW102 displays are ideal because you can immediately change the battery characteristics, like battery low voltage limit and max current limits.

We are also developing the fully wireless TSDZ2 and I hope soon (1 or 2 months) the have the very first working version installed on my ebike and do a public release - this is the mobile app but maybe the most interesting will be the wireless remote and brake sensors, as also the EBike wirelss displays, but yes, this mobile app will also work as display and remote:

Casainho, thanks for your reply.

I'm getting a bit confused right now. Because, i've seen a OSF from mspider65, which uses an ESP32-based custom PCB, and can be used with the default VLCD5 display.

Also i'm now seeing a OSF from you (casainho) which used a NRF52840 (??), giving almost the same features but doesn't support the VLCD5 display. (correct me if i'm wrong??)

Now, which would be the better one? Or actually, what are the differences?

Do i see this correct?

 

[Waynemarlow]

I am thinking about to add a small 2S pack under the sadle for an Voltage of about 43V for a bit higher cadence.

........
... use these battery packs together later on? Like, putting them parallel to combine the capacity/range?

I think you can combine what you want.You als can also think of more small batteries that you can change for a bigger range.

...What should I look after when buying an BMS for firstly the small, but also the bigger battery-pack? ....

I haven't experience with diy building, maybe other people have.

Be very careful people with paralleling up batteries, they need to be the same cell and have equal voltages when coupling them other wise you can get into all sorts of weird battery problems which can get to the point of damaging the cells. Theres a couple of threads over on the Battery section of Endless Sphere on this.

We are using Samsung 21700 40T cells with great success as 13S2P, they have a very good high current draw off and can handle the loads well and yet build into a small form pack giving about 350Wh useable.

Be very careful with any cells with less than a 15 A max draw off, we have been using the Samasung 35Q with only mixed success due to the 8A max draw off in the 13S2P packs, the voltage falls off just to fast in the lower 1/4 of the charge and it limits the total useable to about 300Wh. As 13S3P they work well with the TSDZ2 @ 16 amps