Turnigy 80-100 - TerraTrike

[Kurt]

I have been toying with what motor style to run on this new trike over the past two weeks. I have a 5304 and I was going to just lace that into a 20"wheel. I got to the point where I had purchased a nice strong 20" rim and started to hunt down spokes. Then just last night I had to move the 5304 off the workbench so I could open my toolbox draw. It was at this moment when holding the 12kg slug of a motor in my hand that started to think. WTF am I doing putting this heavy- non free wheeling dinosaur in my trike?

The 5304 went straight into a box. after longging into HK. I then ordered a Turnigy 80-100 Outrunner.

I am looking at one of Mats single stage reduction drives. I will need to buy new rear hub to lace to the new rear rim.I am thinking something so I can mount the final drive gear to it on the left side. I guess I will want the rear sprocket free wheeling. Or mount a free wheel to the reduction drive. I was thinking a adaptor that mounts to the ISO brake rotor mount on the hub. Then there is gear ratio's to sort out.

I am not looking for anything radical or highly strung. I think I would be happy with 2000w but would want reliability. Speed 40kmh max is fine.

Not sure what voltage to run as yet. I have two 36v 20ah headway packs that I can use but would most likely go lipo in the future.

I haven't made a decision on controller yet. I have a 12 fet 45A 9C controller. If I can use that and convert to H sensors that would be great.

Anyhow I am looking forward to the build. I have a lot of decisions to make and parts to buy and fabricate and I am sure a ton of questions to save on the trial and error.

Kurt.

 

[Kurt]

After looking around the forum I defiantly want to have a go at using my little 12fet 45A controller. Then fit hall sensors to the motor. After opening up the controller 63v is the max voltage can run. I don't see a issue with that. I would only want to run 12s lipo max. Most likely 36v headway pack to start with. I could solder the shunt for a few more amps. I am looking for a reliability and drive ability over raw power. The stock 45A limit would give me 1600w with the 36v headways and 2200w with 12s lipo. I can live with that to start with.

This should save me save me the $300 odd on a RC controller + throttle set up that can be put towards the reduction drive.

Now I just need to work out what halls i need and how to go about mounting them.

Kurt

 

[recumpence]

A couple things;

#1 My reduction comes with a threaded adaptor to thread a BMX freewheel onto.

#2 I sell ISO disc brake to 130mm BCD chainring adaptors.

I can set you up. :wink:

Matt

 

[Kurt]

A couple things;

#1 My reduction comes with a threaded adaptor to thread a BMX freewheel onto.

#2 I sell ISO disc brake to 130mm BCD chainring adaptors.

I can set you up. :wink:

Matt

PM sent

kurt.

 

[Kurt]

I did a bit of upgrading on the trike components and gathered a few parts ready for converting to rc drive.

Man its nice going into a bike shop and asking for normal bike parts, especially rear wheel parts. With my old x5 hub motor as soon as I started trying to explain how I need a strong rim because I will have a 12kg!! electric hub to lace in there they look at me all funny. Then when I start talking about 12g spokes that are 70mm long and I want to radially lace it they start thinking I am crazy.

I was trying to explain to my wife last night about How much better it would be to have free wheeling over x5 cogging.I mounted the x5 in a drill press vice and asked her to spin the hub by hand. She was shocked at how much resistance there was. I then picked the hub up and handed it to her.She said it "feels like my kettle bell" :lol:

perhaps I should weld a handle on it and she can have a matching pair. Funny enough they are both the same weight 12kg or 25lb.Puts it into perspective when you think about it you have that iron kettle bell tugging away at your spokes and drop outs at 40MPH LOL

Today I picked up a 36h hub with a 6 hole brake mount flange as the terratrike didn't have a rear brake. I wont be running a rear brake but the flange will hold the rear pulley.

I will lace this new stronger black rim to the new hub

Shimano clipless peddles were a must do mod on this trike. I got some that can be flipped and used as platform peddles with normal runners not that I will often.

While I was there I got this set of Shimano SH MT 40 shoes for $50 on sale

The scram grip shifters that came stock with the trike felt sloppy and didn't index very well. The rear de railer is Shimano so I matched it with a cheap set of Shimano 8 and 3 grip shifters feels a lot better now very possessive shift.

RC reduction drive and parts were ordered from Matt tonight. I should have the 80 - 100 Turnigy motor some time next week to play with. I can start having a go at fitting halls and getting it to run off my 9c controller while I wait for the reduction drive.

Kurt,

 

[inspiredvoltfreak]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=24136&start=30

This is the third page of my build log where I outlined adding hall sensors to the turnigy 180 motor. Not the same motor but will give you the idea

 

[Kurt]

Thanks,
I have watched a few videos of the Turnigy out runners fitted with halls.One thing i noticed is some sound real smooth and others have a real clicky- notchy sound to them especially at low rpm.Is this because the timing-positioning of the halls isn't spot on ? or is it just that some camera mic are more sensitive than others.

I think I will have a go first mounting my halls to the outside of the can. I picked up 3 halls from my local electronics store yesterday. i just took a punt that they will be ok but im not sure if they will be any good.

ink to data sheet.
http://jp.ic-on-line.cn/IOL_UGN3503/gifView/6063301.htm

Although I have been able to follow the basic concept of fitting halls and trail and error approach sorting out hall and phase wire combinations . Sorting the mechanical fitting of them isn't a problem. But I have only a basic understanding of electronic component specs So have no idea if the UGN3503U halls will be ok?

If not I am keen to know of a place I can order some from online that can post to Australia.

Kurt.

 

[Kurt]

Today I got the new rear wheel and hub laced up with SS spokes. Should be a solid rear wheel. Now I can drive from the brake mount.

I built a little 5 wire harness for the hall sensors. I couldn't solder it all up until I get the sensors fitted and work out what order they need to go in 36 possible combinations sounds like fun LOL . I am hanging out for the motor now apparently it was posted last night from HK so should have it this week.

My 36v 20ah headway pack is a few years old now and the cells them self are still strong. They are the original headway 10ah paper rapped cells and the pack construction was very shabby.A lot of the spot welds were very week and I have repaired loose tabs over the years. I wanted to reconfigure this pack so it fits the trike frame so I pulled the hole pack down. Removed all the paper from the cells. taking the cells out of parallel was a good chance to check all the cells for balance and charge them all individually on my RC charger.I will use 6ga car audio amp wire and solder the pack up like I did with my wife's cells. I also ordered some nice thick 50mm heat shrink from HK to rap the cells up again and use double sided foam tape between the cells. I might even split the pack and run 1/2 each side of the seat on the trike . I need to fit the reduction drive first and see how much space I have to work with.

The numbers on the cells is not the voltage . Its just how much AH I put back into them on the RC charger. They were out of whack a bit because of the shabby battery tabs.

Wifes headway pack when I reconfigured it last year has been going strong.She only has a tiny 40A BMS I will be using my big headway BMS think its good for 80A .

 

[recumpence]

Looking good, Kurt.

I am glad to see more trikes being built. I have a few trikes I am setting up drives for right now.

I think Tadpoles are a good step between bicycle and light weight commuter.

Matt

 

[Thud]

Kurt,
I thought I would post here so as not to completely derail another thread LOL.
kurt said:

I think if installing halls was just a matter of bolting on a kit and plugging a 5 pin plugging it into a ebike controller we would see a lot more RC motors on bikes.

Here are the first public pictures of the prototye unit:
View attachment 1


This will slide into one of 4 positions on the end caps & has enough adjustability to get direction & timing zeroed.

I have been working on a small catolog of products to offer up in the sales section. look for it in May.

 

[Kurt]

Thanks for that,
Looks like it will work well when its cleaned up. People have been quoting number's down to .01 deg for Hall placement. Yet 1/2 the external hall brackets that seam to be working ok. look like they have been marked out with a texta and drilled with a cordless hand drill. Surly exact spacing isn't that critical?

Kurt

 

[liveforphysics]

Surly exact spacing isn't that critical?

Kurt

Amazingly, yes, it's that critical. Just the tiny amount of shift my hall brackets make when the fastener is tightened down can make a half-amp of no-load-current difference.

This is where Burties timing adjustment wiz-bang really is worth it's weight in gold. Lets you get the mounted, and electrically creep the position forwards and backwards a bit to optimize efficiency, or if you want to get spirited, advance the timing.

 

[Kurt]

I can understand over all timing advance - retard of all 3 halls as a group could have that effect. I can see how a slotted bracket gives you the ability to fine tune this.Is there some electronics that then enable you to fine tune things even more?

What I was getting at was 17.14 mech degree is what people are quoting as the distance they have between each of the 3 hall sensors.I know 17.14 deg is the calculated mathematical ideal. But when it comes down to building the, what look to be home made brackets. Are people really achieving accuracy down to .01 of a deg ?

On a 80mm OD motor 1 deg is only .697 of a mm net alone .01 of a deg that's .00697 of a mm we are working with fractions of a micron.

My guess is if building by hand .1 of a mm is about as good as you could expect and that's roughly .14 deg . So 17.14 deg +/- .14 deg

I am having this rant because in some of the videos of 80 - 100's fitted with halls they sound a little rough or notchy at low rpm. The only one that sounded real smooth was Jeremy's video and his external bracket looked the neatest.

I will soon find out myself how critical it is when I make a bracket myself and run my own 80-100 on the weekend.

Kurt

 

[Kurt]

Last night I fitted up My Topeak rack and pannier bag. I wanted to try and get it down as close to the top of the rear 20" wheel as possable .The rack is from my 26" wheel MTB but with a couple of mods to shorten the rack Fitted it up ok in the end.I like this kind of bag as it gives you the option to drop down the side bags when you need them. The side bags will also hide some of the belt drive

Its most likely not the best place to put a battery but to start with I will place the battery in the main centre bag.It fits my 36v 20 ah headway pack perfectly.The weight isn't to high of the ground. After quick measure of the centre storage I can easily fit 12 5ah 6c Turnigy lipo packs that would give me 48v 30ah and only 9kg or even 8 would give 20ah at 48v would be around 6.5kg I think the 36v 20ah headway pack I have is around 8kg. 20ah 48v lipo sounds like a good mid point. and if I get keen for super long range rides. I can always hook my bob trailer to the trike and carry my 20ah headway pack in there as well.

Kurt.

 

[John in CR]

Kurt,

I too find it difficult to believe people are achieving that kind of accuracy with their hall spacing. I guess as long as they are equally spaced then the distance from the can offers some ability fine tune it. Until I can buy one from Thud, I'll install inside the stator butted against the edge of 3 stator teeth at 120°, where the margin of error is greater and proper structure already exists.

 

[Kurt]

There is no way in hell they are getting that kind of accuracy not even with laser guided box cutters or thermally stable and calibrated kitchen tables.

I think I was missing a step and they are fine tuning the signal with electronic compensation afterwards. If not it really cant be that critical and just get it as close as you can +/- .14 deg or so like I said before that way your working with about .1 mm on the 80mm OD motor.

I am still keen to know why some 80 100's retrofitted with halls sounds smooth and others have a cogging/ticking sound at low rpm?

This example sounds very smooth.
[youtube]XVX5T7JkBDA[/youtube]


This one sounds real notchy and rougher with that ticking sound.Also sounds different at high rpm but that could just be the voltage it was fed making it spin faster.Warning cats,dogs and perhaps humans will go crazy with this high pitch sound.
[youtube]3EiDExMfxq0[/youtube]

Kurt

 

[Thud]

To get the acuracy required for hall spacing all you need is a simple cad program & a quality printor.
I draw a full scale template & use that as a guide....weather we are splitting seconds of angle are debatable.
you create a boring template for locating one of the legs on spot, or a more sophisticated jig to hold parts in position. I am confident I can achive +/- .02 degs (as close as I can measure)

From experiance, the sound you hear is acurate. You can place the halls staticly for a super smooth start up & silent running up to about 3/5ths throttle.....then the halls need to be advanced to keep the motor happy. Once adjusted for lowest amp draw a full throttle the timing is off enough to make the motor "growl" at start up.
I have a pr of cheapo controllers that the effect is dramatic, I think the Xiechang controllers do a little timing adjustment....just not enough.

Its never a problem for the hub motor boys, cause they rarely/never see 1k rpms. (let alone 8.5k) & its why I am waiting patiently for Burties TA unit to arive any day now.

 

[AussieJester]

I am waiting patiently for Burties TA unit to arive any day now.

Well, i hope it getz there soon mine arrived today got half way
through the user guide you pmed me from Burtie and my head already hurts LoL
Think i will be running with a grumbling Outrunner in low rpm for a bit yet Thud LoL..

KiM

 

[recumpence]

Honestly, the whole timing issue (low versus high RPM timing) is one of the main reasons I have not converted to a sensored setup yet. I love the smoothness of sensorless. But, it looks like we are getting really close to having a smooth sensored system at this point!

Matt

 

[Burtie]

There is no way in hell they are getting that kind of accuracy not even with laser guided box cutters or thermally stable and calibrated kitchen tables.

I think I was missing a step and they are fine tuning the signal with electronic compensation afterwards.

...I am still keen to know why some 80 100's retrofitted with halls sounds smooth and others have a cogging/ticking sound at low rpm?

This example sounds very smooth...


Kurt

Hi Kurt,
To make the hall mount shown in the first video above,
rather than use the trusty laser guided box cutter :wink: I made it using a mill and a precision rotary table, so probably get to within 0.1 degree accuracy or so easily.

I am sure this accuracy is not required to get the motor to operate, but the closer you get to the optimum spacing, the smoother the commutation will be.

There was no electronic timing compensation used in the video, -it was before the add-on timing adjuster (TA) had been developed.
The maximum speed was only about 3500 RPM, and the timing was optimised for the slow running speed.

Burtie

 

[Kurt]

To get the acuracy required for hall spacing all you need is a simple cad program & a quality printor.
I draw a full scale template & use that as a guide....weather we are splitting seconds of angle are debatable.
you create a boring template for locating one of the legs on spot, or a more sophisticated jig to hold parts in position. I am confident I can achive +/- .02 degs (as close as I can measure)

From experiance, the sound you hear is acurate. You can place the halls staticly for a super smooth start up & silent running up to about 3/5ths throttle.....then the halls need to be advanced to keep the motor happy. Once adjusted for lowest amp draw a full throttle the timing is off enough to make the motor "growl" at start up.
I have a pr of cheapo controllers that the effect is dramatic, I think the Xiechang controllers do a little timing adjustment....just not enough.

Its never a problem for the hub motor boys, cause they rarely/never see 1k rpms. (let alone 8.5k) & its why I am waiting patiently for Burties TA unit to arive any day now.

Thanks for Clearing a few things up for me. Even my 5304 had some growl at very low RPM. I didn't know that some controllers had timing compensations built in that's interesting.

Hi Kurt,
To make the hall mount shown in the first video above,
rather than use the trusty laser guided box cutter :wink: I made it using a mill and a precision rotary table, so probably get to within 0.1 degree accuracy or so easily.

I am sure this accuracy is not required to get the motor to operate, but the closer you get to the optimum spacing, the smoother the commutation will be.

There was no electronic timing compensation used in the video, -it was before the add-on timing adjuster (TA) had been developed.
The maximum speed was only about 3500 RPM, and the timing was optimised for the slow running speed.

Burtie,
I could see that your mount in the 1st Video looked nice and neat. I wasn't referring to your mount as being made with a box cutter at all. I was referring to some others that looked very makeshift. I understand now why it ran nice and smooth due to only running at low rpm + the timing set up for that speed. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Your little TA unit sounds great and will most likely need one myself. Although I see myself being in the same boat as AJ with a spinning head from the user manual :lol:

Just got to get the 80 100 motor in my hands now. Looks like some one at Hong Kong post departure centre fell asleep on the job. It only left Hong Kong last night and now it Will be some time next week before I see it at my door. Boy I am one inpatient person when it comes to e bike toys LOL

Kurt.

 

[Kurt]

Some parts came today from HK.

One Turnigy 80 - 100 outrunner

5M length of very large thick Turnigy heat shrink.

Edit, I was just having a think about the $100 Turnigy 80 - 100 last night. I think something that the Chinese don't get yet. Is at $100 retail they are really pushing the limit of what you can build for this price. I wasn't expecting a $700 Astro quality when I opened it up . But I am sure others would agree that. We would have been more than happy to pay $200 that's double the price but still cheap. To have better material quality and over all build quality.

I guess what I am saying is they can build a good quality products but they are building something purely on price. I think there needs to be more products at the mid price point. If you take this cut price manufacturing to the extreme and say it only cost $12 retail for a 80 - 100 . I am sure they could build you something but it would be like a Hollywood set . I am sure it would look like a 80 - 100 but start getting closer and you would soon find that the product doesn't even function as a electric motor.

I looked at it all for 5 min then had to pull the motor apart given there terrible QC record.
five min later we had this

On close inspections Just like others have found. The copper wire is wound on by some limp wrist pansy ! There are a few areas that need attention. I am keen to know what others have done to perhaps glue the wire in place?

HK must have got the message about there magnets coming loose and decided to glue them in better. Trouble is they gave a bucket of glue and a spade to a 3yo blind kid. Dosn't look like they will move but will need some cleaning up.

The other area I wanted to check out was the bearings. I was surprised to see the first one i looked at said HKS made in Japan.The one on the Back side said NMB Thailand on it and the final one on the other end of the shaft was a Chinese no name. Funny enough the Chinese one felt notchy and crap.I pressed it out and it felt fine although it wasn't tight most likely just a crap bearing .

The hall sensors I have will fit easy between the stator slots.I am still not sure if I have the correct halls but guess I will find out soon enough.

Finally My headway cells from my 36v 20ah pack were the original paper wrapped cells and I wanted to wrapped them in heat shrink to tidy the pack up and protect them better.Just cut a length 130mm and hit it with the heat gun being careful not to over heat the cell.Turned out well nice thick Heatshrink just have 23 cells to do now.

Now I need to go find some kind of adhesive to glue the wire down on the motor and glue the halls in place. I will get some new bearings to. Clean up the black magnet glue and put it all together and see if I can get it to run from my 9c controller.

Kurt

 

[AussieJester]

In regards to placing the halls internally 120 degree spacing, i have believe a few have had
issues with placement of halls internally with delta terminated motors? Might want some of the gurus
to chip in and explain this?

Kurt, the video camera rrived earlier today, i shall pop out now and shoot a small video of
my motor ramping up show you how it sounds using the external 17.4 degree spacing
(Burtie sent me a hall mount done milling machine so its pretty accurate i assume)

Looks like you got a motor wound on a Friday buddy haha In regards to the hall phase wire combos i have
one of Lyens testers here, if you have any issues i can send it too you in the post pack you sent the
camera in, lemme know anywayz, i didn't even use it till after i had the thing working its pretty
easy to find the correct combo, long as you have the throttle working your going to get some movement no matter what
hall/phase wire combo you have from there its matter of swapping a few times till it runs if its in
the incorrect direction either move the hall sensor bracket (if you have external halls) and you can make it run the opposite direction or swap two hall and two phase wire combos...

Back soon with video think ou will be pretty happy with the controll avaiable...

KiM

 

[Kurt]

Kim,
I am glad you got the camera and on the day they said you would. I never trust Australia post 100% . Hope you can work out how to use it. There are instructions you can down load online if you do a google search. The 3x zoom is completely buggered I think the little knob on the slide switch had come off other than that its reasonably self explanatory.I found 720p 30fps worked best. At 1080hd the files were to big and my gutless laptop and Utube didn't like it processing it. 720p 60fps is good for fast action.

thanks for the tip on the 120 deg hall spacing I will do some more reading and get my head around what will work best. Most likely make a bracket up for the outside like you said its adjustable then. Its a friday motor that's for sure others seem to have had success glued the wires down .

thanks for the phase/hall tester offer. Like you said with A bit of playing around and a watt meter I think I will sort it out.

I am surprised just how small the RC motors are considering the power you can feed them.

kurt.

 

[AussieJester]

Kim,
I am glad you got the camera and on the day they said you would. I never trust Australia post 100% . Hope you can work out how to use it. There are instructions you can down load online if you do a google search. The 3x zoom is completely buggered I think the little knob on the slide switch had come off other than that its reasonably self explanatory.I found 720p 30fps worked best. At 1080hd the files were to big and my gutless laptop and Utube didn't like it processing it. 720p 60fps is good for fast action.

thanks for the tip on the 120 deg hall spacing I will do some more reading and get my head around what will work best. Most likely make a bracket up for the outside like you said its adjustable then. Its a friday motor that's for sure others seem to have had success glued the wires down .

thanks for the phase/hall tester offer. Like you said with A bit of playing around and a watt meter I think I will sort it out.

I am surprised just how small the RC motors are considering the power you can feed them.

kurt.

Yes i have the camera ll worked out except for the slide button i assumed was zoom you have now confirmed it haah cheers mate, she works well for what it is no doubt! Pretty damn fine video thats for sure!

As promised-->

[youtube]cTUPZkzSmDY[/youtube]

Hope this helps

Thanks mate

KiM