UK Ebiker riders

[cajunjay]

My ebike is almost ready for a test ride, its a dirt bike using a chinese 48v 1000w rear wheel kit.

My question for you ebike riders in the UK, how do you ride around with a motor well over the legal limit whilst riding over the legal speed limit 15mph it cant be very stealth if a police car happens to drive by you.

Ive been thinking about this ever since the idea of making a ebike came to me, just need some feedback on how you guys get around on your bikes that are over 250w.

 

[whereswally606]

I tend to pedal only, if i see a police car, you have to keep your eyes open. I guess i don't commute on mine so most my speeding is off-road and therefore legal. Its just the risk you have to take if you build a bike that is technically illegal and you want to ride it on the road. plus i have a throttle limiter which helps limit my top speed (not that i always use it). A2B metro bike are legal on the basis of an on-road off road speed switch so i kid myself and hopefully the law with the same argument, how is my 5k pot any different. If you don't ride like a tool the police will likely go after others.
btw no inference is being made that you might ride in a toolish way, I am only trying to help / give my 2p

 

[Sunder]

Even though I'm not in the UK, I understand our laws are similar, and so is our culture.

My recommendation is to remember that police are humans, and they have better things to do, than to "get people on a technicality". If you're riding at 35mph on a road, keeping up with traffic, I doubt police would give you a second look.

But if you're doing 15mph on a busy shared path, weaving in between pedestrians and prams, you can bet they will look for any technicality they can to try to get you to stop, even though you weren't technically doing anything wrong at the time.

It reminds me of a presentation I went to, organised by a modified car club about 6 or 7 years ago. (Maybe about 2 years after the release of the first Fast and Furious Movie). This club specifically wrote to the police asking if they could have them present on what is and isn't acceptable on the road. One thing the police officer said which stuck in my mind all these years was "If we look hard enough, we can generally defect a car which is being driven off the showroom floor - For example, if your washer fluid is below half, that's technically a defect. However, no police officer is ever going to defect you on that, unless they feel you're showing contempt for the law, or disrepect to the officer doing the inspection"

Worth thinking about at least.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I ride around the local city all the time, usually at speeds (on the roads) of 20 to 25 mph. It's not at all unusual for bikes to be pedalled at those sorts of speeds on the flat, so the simple answer to not getting pulled by the police is to look as if you're pedalling. It helps if your ebike doesn't look too obviously bodged together, I'm sure.

Areas where I take care are pulling away from lights and junctions if there are police or PCOs about, as popping a wheelie or out-accelerating the other traffic is a sure fire way to attract attention. I also slow right down on the cycle paths, in fact I tend to pedal along them pretty much all the time, with not much power assistance.

The police presence in my local city is so small as to make the chance of one seeing me remote, may be once in a month or two. In a couple of years of ebiking around there I've not once attracted any attention, apart from interested people coming up to me to chat about the bike when I'm chaining it up somewhere (that still happens a lot).

My advice would be stick to riding at speed on the roads, don't stand out from other cyclists too much, don't play the hooligan on paths or at junctions/lights and I doubt you'll even attract a glance from the police.

 

[The fingers]

Two cops in an unmarked car left-turn jammed me as they pulled into a fast food joint right in front of me the other night and I jacklighted them with my trusty Shurefire M6. They looked embarassed for shure! When you're not doing anything wrong you can be bold and not worry about getting pulled over and ticketed, but reasonable riding goes a long way too. Also, the reserve power can come in handy to provide an extra margin of safety with instant top end speed kick in an emergency. That's why I usually don't run WOT all the time anymore, but stay around as fast as I can pedal using the motor at about three-quarter throttle.(my top gear is pretty high) This also extends my range, and nearing the end of my commute I like to let it rip for the last mile or so, thus I arrive with "speed satisfied" label attached to the addiction center of my brain.

 

[d8veh]

Make sure you have high gearing so that you can pedal all the time, and don't go nuts on cycle paths. If you get stopped, start panting like you just ran a 100m sprint.

 

[Spacey]

Jeremy, you should check what the PCSO's are riding these days

 

[knoxie]

Yes pretty sound advice.

Always peddle, the cops know the legal limit is 250W, get a sticker made up and get it stuck on the motor, In 10 years of ebiking I have only been stopped once by the cops and they never even noticed the motor! make sure you always ride with lights, helmet, make sure your brakes work and you will be fine.

20-25mph is a great safe max speed, you start going over 30mph and passing cars in the 30 zone then you are going to attract a lot of attention and rightly so, electric bikes on the road for me shouldn't go over 30mph, that's just my opinion, you want to go quicker than that regularly then you really need to think about an electric moped, with tax, insurance etc etc, fly under the radar, beat the system and have fun with a nice powerful assist! that's the key if you can meaningfully peddle along without using a stupid gearing then you are good to go.

 

[Spacey]

The legal UK power limit is actually 200W at the rear wheel, I thought it was 250W for ages.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The legal UK power limit is actually 200W at the rear wheel, I thought it was 250W for ages.

Not spotted one of the PCSOs on ebikes yet.

The UK limit is also 250 W, as the EU rules apply here and are valid. Pretty much all the ready-built ebikes imported into the UK are EU legal and so nominally 250 W, although the way the test is undertaken means that it's perfectly possible for a lot more power to be available and for the ebike to still pass.

 

[Xanda2260]

My town has mega police presence. Everytime I've been out on the trike I've seen one.
Now, bear in mind that the trike is still in developmemt (no paint, surface rust, wires everywhere) and can hit 40mph. I have never had them take more than an interested glance (in a 'WTF is that' sort of way). I suspect this is primarily due to the fact that I ride sensibly. 20-30 on road, 15-20 on cycle paths, slow down when peds are around. Generally, don't ride like a nob and you'll be fine

 

[Spacey]

The legal UK power limit is actually 200W at the rear wheel, I thought it was 250W for ages.

Not spotted one of the PCSOs on ebikes yet.

The UK limit is also 250 W, as the EU rules apply here and are valid. Pretty much all the ready-built ebikes imported into the UK are EU legal and so nominally 250 W, although the way the test is undertaken means that it's perfectly possible for a lot more power to be available and for the ebike to still pass.

I've looked up the legislation and 250W is for tricycles and tandems....200W for normal bikes.

How do they test them...my understanding was that it was 200W at the rear wheel counting losses you would need a 300W controller. I was also under the impression that UK law will always supersede EU law? I hope I am wrong and that EU law is king.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The legal UK power limit is actually 200W at the rear wheel, I thought it was 250W for ages.

Not spotted one of the PCSOs on ebikes yet.

The UK limit is also 250 W, as the EU rules apply here and are valid. Pretty much all the ready-built ebikes imported into the UK are EU legal and so nominally 250 W, although the way the test is undertaken means that it's perfectly possible for a lot more power to be available and for the ebike to still pass.

I've looked up the legislation and 250W is for tricycles and tandems....200W for normal bikes.

How do they test them...my understanding was that it was 200W at the rear wheel counting losses you would need a 300W controller. I was also under the impression that UK law will always supersede EU law? I hope I am wrong and that EU law is king.

250 W is fine on an EU Type Approved ebike used in the UK. It's confusing, as there are two parallel sets of regulations operating in the UK. There are the UK only EAPC regs, which are, as you say, restricted to 200 W for a bike, 250 W for a trike, plus there are the EU regulations that allow 250 W. Both are legal in the UK, and the vast majority of ready made bikes are EU Type Approved, rather than approved here in the UK against the EAPC regulations. UK law doesn't supersede this bit of EU law, as the government has said it accepts that to do so would be a barrier to free trade.

EU Type Approval is done using the procedure in EN 19154 (see here: http://www.vae-enov.com/fiches_2010/norme_en_15194.pdf), which checks power by having the bike accelerate from a standstill for a distance of 20 metres and then back calculates power from this formula:

P = 2 x D² x M /(T³)

where P= power watts, D= 20 metres, M= mass of rider plus bike Kg, T = time (Secs) to cover distance D

As you can see, if you build in a slow ramp to the throttle then you can have a true motor power of maybe two or three times the "legal" limit and yet still gain Type Approval.....................

There is an alternative power measurement method in EN 19154, that allows measurement of power at the motor shaft, but AFAIK no one uses this method normally, as the acceleration test is simpler (and allows a certain amount of cheating).

 

[HypnoToad]

My Ezee Forza is 250W and still has the CE approved stickers on the side of the controller.

I guess I could be technically illegal riding it on the road now however, as I'm using a 44v battery over the stock 36v one?

Still I haven't been pulled yet, but then I know how not to attract unneeded attention.

 

[john7700]

My experience here, where I am suppose to be registered as a moped regardless of power, I find that since I make no appreciable noise that as long as I feddle at all times and keep it bellow thirty, no one even notices. I also try to keep my bike looking like a bike. My bike passes better than RuePaul.

 

[knoxie]

Nice explanation from Jeremy there, whether its 200 or 250W I think we can all agree its pretty much useless, still dont understand why they limit the power, limit the weight, limit the speed and the acceleration maybe but not the power, its bonkers...you want to encourage folks onto bikes and out of cars, give most folks a 2KW ebike that will climb pretty much any hill, keep the speed down to a safe 18mph and your good to go, bureaucrats driving around in their tax paid mercs just dont see it that way..

So the only thing to do is cheat 8) god help us if this came up over on the pedelec forum Jeremy even after 10 years of riding my ebikes I still get the EV grin, it would certainly be an EV grimace if I ran at 200W :lol:

 

[Jeremy Harris]

So the only thing to do is cheat 8) god help us if this came up over on the pedelec forum Jeremy

If some of the more anally-retentive types over there even got a sniff that their EU Type Approved bikes were well over 250 W I'm sure there'd be outrage. Some of them in the trade must know full well that one or two models of legal EU ebike are running at around the 500 to 750 W mark, maybe they are just keeping their head down. It's odd how that forum has changed, years ago when I used to post there (before coming here) there were quite a few building ebikes that weren't exactly legal. The first ebike race or two that attracted attention was an inspiration for adding more power, Tiberius (from here) even won one of those races IIRC, with way over 250 W. There didn't seem many issues about power or legality there then, just a character who posted all day, every day, and didn't like anyone challenging his assumed position of being master of the forum (which is one reason I stopped posting there). Since then it's become a forum dominated by small commercial ebike sellers fighting with each other like school kids and being critical of everyone else's product except their own, which is a very good reason to keep ES non-commercial in my view.

 

[knoxie]

Yes absolutely Jeremy, I havent posted on there but have had a quick look from time to time, anyone that does post up with any reference to running a high power bike gets quickly shot down in flames, this does indeed stem from the vested interests of a lot of the posters on there pushing their own bikes which by comparison are pretty underwhelming and over priced, the prestigne rally was an example of this, with the exception of a rider here and there it was pretty much the organisers bikes that won the race, all running 250W? dont think so...

Yes there are a lot of type approved bikes that certainly push way past 250W.

 

[d8veh]

You two both have a similar view of that forum to me. I also used to post there, but don't any more. It was like a hard core of long-time members owned underpowered bikes (especially the 26v Panasonic) and were jealous of anybody that had anything that could perform better, so they wanted to drag everybody down to their level by deriding everything else. If you challenge any of their bigotted ideas or false statements, they resort to personal insult. It seems that the administrators condone this sort of behaviour, but because there's no effective alternative forum, they seem happy to let it deteriorate to exactly the situation as Jeremy described.

Things are moving on a bit now because the new "legal" bikes have so much more power. I recently had a test ride on the E-motion Neo Cross, which has the Bafang BPM motor in it. To me, it was like an e-bike always should have been. It was limited on speed, but had serious climbing power. There's no way in the world any reasonable test engineer would rate it at 250w, but it has an EN15194 label on it (AFAIK).

I don't think we need to dispair and neither do our Australian friends, who have also adopted this standard. It seems that the clever engineers have found clever ways to "comply" with the standard and , hopefully, will think of even more creative ideas in the future.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The nice thing is that complying with the power test method in EN 15194 is fairly easy to accomplish, as all that is required is a limiter that operates for the first 20 metres after setting off. In practice this limiter can just be a short term speed limiter, not a power limiter, and the power could be pretty much whatever you like as long as the bike doesn't do the first 20 metres in less than the allotted time. If you want an idea of the times to achieve for different weights in order to meet the assumed 250 watt power limit, then here are some examples:

100kg 6.8 S
105kg 7.0 S
110kg 7.1 S
115kg 7.2 S
120kg 7.3 S
125kg 7.4 S
130kg 7.5 S
135kg 7.6 S
140kg 7.7 S

If you simply had a speed limiter that kept the bike speed below about 2.8 m/S (6.3 mph) for the first 7 seconds then you'd be certain to pass the test. In fact, you could probably push the speed limiter up to around 8 or 9 mph for the first 7 seconds and still pass, as long as the initial acceleration from a standstill to 8 or 9 mph wasn't too quick. After initial limiting phase you'd need a 15 mph speed limiter to comply with the "no power assist above 25 kph" rule to be strictly legal.

It would be pretty easy to add a throttle processor to allow both the EU "power test" to be complied with and the maximum power assist speed, and equally easy to have this switchable so it could be discreetly disabled.

 

[Wurly]

I assumed that any ebike that was a DIY build would be technically illegal anyway, whether or not it could pass the EN regs, because it hasn't been subjected to the test. If the police know the law with regard to ebikes would they actually do anything? probably not. The biggest problem would be if there is an accident involving a diy build.
With that very much in mind, i am careful when riding mine especially when i am sharing roads and pathways with others.
As for the other forum, i can see their worries. As it stands ebikes are exempted from registration and the necessary beaurocracy that goes along with it. All it takes is for a couple of accidents and i can see illegal ebikes being targetted by the police. I hope that doesn't happen of course.
We still have a way of registering our machines as legal electric bikes, i haven't looked into it in depth, but at least it's possible unlike other EU countries. Has anyone else considered this?

 

[Jeremy Harris]

At the moment a DIY ebike is perfectly legal in the UK, as long as it doesn't exceed the performance and power limits. It can even have a throttle, as the funny sort of hybrid law we have at the moment means that there is no need to have EU Type Approval for an ebike that's ridden in the UK, all that's needed is compliance with the regulations.

This will change when the government get around to removing the UK-only EAPC regulations from the Statute Book and fully accepting the EU EPAC regulations as the only type of legal ebikes allowed. From that point on, any new ebike would have to be EU Type Approved and carry a sticker saying it had been tested and was compliant with the regulations, which would outlaw all DIY ebikes. Like all laws of this kind, it couldn't be applied retrospectively to older ebikes though, and there is likely to be a major problem in determining the age of any bike; "was it converted to an ebike before or after the adoption of the EPAC regulations?". The government is showing no sign of wanting to tidy up the ebike laws, though, so we are at present stuck with the rather messy system that allows both types of ebike to be sold and used perfectly legally, something that works to our advantage as we can cherry pick the regs we want to comply with

Getting a more powerful ebike registered isn't that easy, but can be done. It's pointless to try and register one as a "low powered moped", as the speed restriction is exactly the same as for an ebike. You could register a high powered ebike as a motorcycle, using the MSVA test and approval route, but it would then need an MOT certificate, insurance, tax disc, number plates etc. At least one chap has registered one of the stinky two stroke bicycle conversions using the MSVA route : http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pattle/nacc/arc0497.htm so you could do exactly the same with an electric bike, with the added bonus of being road tax exempt (although, just like my exempt car, you still need to get a free tax disc every year and display it).

 

[Idontwanttopedal]

I don't think there sholud be a power limit just a good speed limit but better than 15 mph

 

[Wurly]

Thanks for that clarification Jeremy. This is sounding all too familiar to the modified car laws when government adopted the SVA test. Vehicles where modifications could be proven to have been done before 1995 only had to be built to the rather vague 'construction and use' regs and indentity was determined by a point based system. If you want to remain within those pre-1995 laws YOU have to prove modifications were done before that date. If you cannot prove it, registration is withdrawn and you have to pass the much more stringent SVA test (now BIVA with EU regs). How they think sort of retrospective legislation can be adopted for unregistered bicycles beggars belief, but as can be seen from what happened to the car laws...it is always down to the owner to prove it's age especially if they intend a prosecution. Not likely yet i would hope, but i can already see where this may be leading.

 

[oigoi]

I would just be careful where you go at maximum speed, and get a sticker for your motor that says its 250w. I bought a secondhand 250w motor just to take the sticker off it and put on mine