UK gov' consultation to allow higher power ebikes and throttles

[offGridDownUnder]

Yes, of course. 250W legal limit is set on motor rated power, which (with some simplification) is a label put on motor by manufacturer. Some manufacturers are more flexible and will put right label for some distributors (if asked nicely) and some won't. I love flexible approach to the subject by Grinn Technologies. You want legal label on? They will engrave it for you

Laser 250W Power Rating

Laser Engrave 250 Watt Continuous Power Rating on Motor Side Plate. ALL Hub Motors have an Operating Point (RPM and Allowable Temperature) where 250 W is Max Continuous Capability.

ebikes.ca

You would have to look really hard to find a bike restricted to 250W

View attachment 352276

Above you have road legal 250W rated motor. 48V x 15A = 750W. You can have legally all power you need within some reasoneable boundries of course.

PS Fragment you quoted was written by Flecc - our legal expert, but I see it now and I don't think he got it right. IMO it should be:
"250 watts maximum motor rated power, 15.5 mph maximum assist speed and power only when pedalling"
I am going to write to him and ask him to correct his legal guide.

Yes. Since this was here, and a good discussion, I wanted to leave explicit information for DIY folks that the 250w didn't mean 'maximum at any time no matter what'. When I started, I thought it did, and I would have not purchased the same motors if I had known better.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Updated: NYPD Targets Illegal Motorcycles and Ebikes in All-Day, Citywide Operation

Credit: WSR. By Carol Tannenhauser If you were out and about on the Upper West Side on Sunday afternoon you

www.westsiderag.com

Wow. It's almost as if we had some responsibility to other people for our actions and the consequences.

 

[afzal]

wsr is forbidden, I will stop typing

 

[Comrade]

I never understood these draconian power restrictions when fit individuals can ride pedal bikes faster than these restricted low power e-bikes can go.

There is an inverse relationship between how fast someone can pedal, and the likelihood of injury.

If the society picks up the bill for injuries people cause to themselves, then it is perfectly reasonable to regulate to some degree things that are commonly used and that can easily cause injury.

 

[raylo32]

But this is discrimination. If you are fit and fast you can go as fast as you want and as fast as your legs can propel you. But if you are fat and/or unfit you are limited to low power e-bike and a snail's pace? I am not saying that these regs don't prevent some injuries merely because it does keep more people from going faster. But it isn't fair, and after all, what's wrong with a rider accepting some risk? I don't care all that much because I am fit and fast pedaling... and I live in the US where we can have more power on our e-bikes. But it puzzles me how the UK and EU regs can be so... silly.


"There is an inverse relationship between how fast someone can pedal, and the likelihood of injury.

If the society picks up the bill for injuries people cause to themselves, then it is perfectly reasonable to regulate to some degree things that are commonly used and that can easily cause injury."

 

[Az.]

But it puzzles me how the UK and EU regs can be so... silly.

It is not silly. You simply don't understand it. There is no limit on power in EU and UK. At least not a direct one.
...and you don't understand concept of discrimination either.

 

[raylo32]

Oh, I do understand that concept of costs to society, for instance with motorcycle helmets. IMO they should be mandatory just for those reasons, no matter what size or speed you moto goes.

But I'll make the scenario simple for you... say I have a pedal road bike and an e-bike in my garage (I do). Also say I am able to pedal my road bike at 30 mph, but if I take the e-bike parked next to it on the same trip how much sense does it make for it to be limited to 20 MPH? Answer: zero. If speeds over x MPH are deemed to be "too dangerous for society", then the limit should apply universally.

It is not silly. You simply don't understand it. There is no limit on power in EU and UK. At least not a direct one.
...and you don't understand concept of discrimination either.

 

[Chalo]

Also say I am able to pedal my road bike at 30 mph,

Not a safe assumption even in the best case, but you won't be doing it sleepy, high, or otherwise impaired. That's a difference.

Yes, cars should be limited to 20 mph inside city limits, and trucks to 10 mph.

 

[raylo32]

What city limits?? ANY city limits?? Does that include those little burgs in Georgia that post city limits signs on rural interstate highways with nothing but trees all around? LOL... But even for real cities, talk about gumming up the wheels of commerce! Might as well bring back horses and buggies.

Not a safe assumption even in the best case, but you won't be doing it sleepy, high, or otherwise impaired. That's a difference.

Yes, cars should be limited to 20 mph inside city limits, and trucks to 10 mph.

 

[yantra yatra]

I think this is in large part also a problem driven by infrastructure.

Roads are not designed for bikes but for cars. Footpaths are not designed for Ebikes.

There is not really a place for ebikes to ride. Therefore governments to try regulate high power Ebikes out of existence rather than dealing with a regulatory process that is mature and making appropriate infrastructure investments. The inertia of existing practice (status quo), culture and infrastructure militate against reform. But it will have to happen eventually because higher powered Ebikes are a no-brainer practically.

Honestly, if a few people advocated in a coordinated manner with some sensible propositions and brought it to law makers things could probably change quite significantly quite quickly.

Edit: Also, re. regulating Ebikes so that you avoid high power Ebikes on footpaths doesn’t make sense to me, as motorbikes could be used on footpaths, yet they aren’t made illegal in general. They’re just not allowed to ride on foootpaths. (And they’re registered for road use). A system could be worked out pretty easily to make it work for Ebikes. But without the regulations in place to drive investment, no one has a profit impetus to engage in advocacy to change things. But it could be changed pretty easily I reckon.

 

[Chalo]

What city limits?? ANY city limits??

Yes.

But even for real cities, talk about gumming up the wheels of commerce!

You might as well look into average point-to-point speeds for real cities and reckon whether going more slowly and more steadily might actually be faster than what we do now (with a huge death toll).

 

[Az.]

Oh, I do understand

No, you don't. You don't understand EU an UK law, but you are making a judgement.

But I'll make the scenario simple for you... say I have a pedal road bike and an e-bike in my garage (I do). Also say I am able to pedal my road bike at 30 mph, but if I take the e-bike parked next to it on the same trip how much sense does it make for it to be limited to 20 MPH? Answer: zero. If speeds over x MPH are deemed to be "too dangerous for society", then the limit should apply universally.

Not sure why are you bringing speed and helmets into equation. It has been specifically said by government that all irrelevant opinions will be ignored. Consultation was only about throttles and increase of motor rated power.

For your information there is no speed limit imposed on bikes and e-bikes (EAPCs to be precise) in UK. You can pedal both as fast as you want.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

how much sense does it make for it to be limited to 20 MPH?

They aren't, so that's not part of the discussion. Electric boost beyond that speed may be limited (25Km/hr) here in Australia, but you can pedal your bike/trike as fast as the speed limit where you are riding (roads and shared paths have speed limits).

 

[Az.]

They aren't, so that's not part of the discussion. Electric boost beyond that speed may be limited (25Km/hr) here in Australia, but you can pedal your bike/trike as fast as the speed limit where you are riding (roads and shared paths have speed limits).

Speeding cyclist who killed pensioner avoids prosecution

Brian Fitzgerald, a vice president at Credit Suisse, avoided prosecution after smashing into Hilda Griffiths while doing laps of Regent's Park, London because speed limit signs don't apply to cyclists.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[yantra yatra]

This may be worth a new topic, what would be appropriate regulation for medium powered ~1kw ebikes?

For public safety maybe ensuring bikes have a decent brake system (mandated disc brakes, with particular specs?). Certified batteries might go some way to making governments more comfortable, more generally.

Requiring bikes to be registered, and riders to be licensed (with regular car or motorbike license), even if there was no fee or nominal e.g. $20 fee. This would help ensure riders are aware of road rules and basic driving skills, as well as providing an avenue for sanctioning people riding on footpaths, riding illegally, with license point penalties, fines etc. Losing a license then exposing problem riders to more serious charges if they continue to ride restricted (~1kw) ebikes unlicensed.

With motorbikes and cars, when selling and buying to retain registration you have to have a roadworthy check, and there are requirements for the type of vehicles that can be registered. This would potentially be more difficult with bikes, to require more comprehensive vehicle checks for roadworthiness. But that's probably more a risk to the rider than the public (if basic braking is up to the specifications, but maybe other mechanical aspects of the bike aren't up to scratch, e.g. if the frame is weak etc). Battery certification again being maybe another component there.

In much of Aus, as in Europe there is a 250w motor power limit. There's a 6km/h limit to throttle use. With the right infrastructure and policy settings I think things could be improved significantly. Presenting policymakers with a viable solution or at least some suggestions is a good start.

What do people think about appropriate regulations for this medium-powered segment ~1kw-1.5kw? This could be a bit of a doorway to higher-powered ebikes being legalised in future.

Does anyone know how Germany handles roadworthiness and required specs for moped-registered ebikes in the higher-powered category?

Edit: just found this on German regs. Seems pretty sensible on first very brief glance.

 

[Az.]

What is an S-Pedelec ? – Pedelecs – Electric Bike Community

www.pedelecs.co.uk

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

These debates about various Euro or British and US State ENVRIO regulations (mislabeled 'laws') or State traffic code is constant and intriguing to this Yankee because:
Many of the writers herein or elsewhere seem very nearly terrified of EITHER;
a) their countries para-military police (?) { I think not } or
b) their country's police ability to levy fines without due process { probably the case - or else unknown FEAR }
c) No Earthly Idea in this world what a SIMPLE United States " ticket " is all about
A Ticket? C'Mon Man ! A common violation of the regulations of the State as witnessed by officer SAM accusing ME on this day of MAY in the township of HOBO and summoned with SAM to appear in the court of Judge Hammer in a Fortnight.
Just learn civics please if you are american please and thanks.

 

[Epithemeus]

This may be worth a new topic, what would be appropriate regulation for medium powered ~1kw ebikes?

In BC we have a "limited speed motorcycles" category Mopeds and scooters

In theory great. Very similar to what you mentioned, license required etc. In practice it still ends up pretty restrictive. Insurance is mandatory and still comparatively expensive (I think like $350 cad a year and that's if you have a clean record and a bunch of years driving experience) Also pretty hard to diy stuff as you need a safety inspection to register and there is no clear guidelines or documentation of what is required. You almost never see electric vehicles in this category as there just aren't a ton of options on the market to buy (at least not when I've looked) Also no bike lanes allowed. (Honestly that one seems pretty reasonable to me)