Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

[robocam]

The more I look at it, the more I don't think that chainline would work on my bike (but possibly with a Luna Eclipse though I don't know if I can live with such a huge chainring at 42T). I need the chain pretty close to the bottom bracket. The BBSHD has a huge enclosed gear between the chainring and the bottom bracket. I wish they put that gear on the other side. Then we could use whatever crankset we want to.

Another big concern I have is the motor hitting things. It looks like it reduces your ground clearance significantly. With the Cyclone, you can move the motor using custom brackets or put it in the triangle. I know you've said ground clearance isn't an issue, but it clearly reduces your ground clearance, which can matter to some.

What teeth rear sprocket do you use to start from a standstill? What sprockets do you use most for technical singletrack? Are you on 26" wheels? I'm trying to figure out what gears I'd be using if I had the BBSHD on my bike.

Just to be fair to the Cyclone 3000, it can easily handle 90A at 72V. We know for a fact that the BBSHD can be destroyed with 65A at 48V.

https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/03/01/my-bbshd-was-evil-and-it-deserved-to-die-a-horrible-death/

I'm using the Luna 30T and the chain line is great.

No failures and 450 miles racked up on 74V and now 88V. Most like I will go back down to 74V but power on 88V is nice.

I had the Cyclone 3000W but honestly not a big fan anymore. Too many moving parts, and motor mounts are junk. Not to mention noisy.

Not need for a 2nd chain ring, I barely use a few gears as it is. I have a wide RPM range at high voltage.

I like the bafang since its quiet, smooth, and power is unreal at high voltages. Better mounting system too.

But honestly there's no pointing in comparing this with cyclone. Its apples and oranges.

 

[evolutiongts]

cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1462/0882/files/BBSHD_indoor_large.jpg?v=1475644477[img]

I don't have any chain line issues the chain is quite close to the BB.

Clearance isn't that bad, I never have issues jumping curbs etc.

I start from the granny gear while off roading but on the street I start from 2nd or 3rd sometimes even 4th as I max out on the gears fairy quickly and shifting takes time.

Cyclone 3000w is a stout motor no doubt and it is powerful. The rest of the kit is poor quality though, the aluminium plates flex, the spacers and bolts that mount the motor is a joke I bent those so quickly. Its also very time consuming to install the Cyclone so many parts lol.

I just slide the BBSHD through the BB bolt it up and its mounted. I just like having everything nice and tidy.

Yeah I don't know why or Karl managed to destroy his motor. My motor doesnt pull high amps for long, it just spins fast and geared low. 88V is just ludacris.

[quote="robocam"]The more I look at it, the more I don't think that chainline would work on my bike (but possibly with a Luna Eclipse though I don't know if I can live with such a huge chainring at 42T). I need the chain pretty close to the bottom bracket. The BBSHD has a huge enclosed gear between the chainring and the bottom bracket. I wish they put that gear on the other side. Then we could use whatever crankset we want to.

Another big concern I have is the motor hitting things. It looks like it reduces your ground clearance significantly. With the Cyclone, you can move the motor using custom brackets or put it in the triangle. I know you've said ground clearance isn't an issue, but it clearly reduces your ground clearance, which can matter to some.

What teeth rear sprocket do you use to start from a standstill? What sprockets do you use most for technical singletrack? Are you on 26" wheels? I'm trying to figure out what gears I'd be using if I had the BBSHD on my bike.

Just to be fair to the Cyclone 3000, it can easily handle 90A at 72V. We know for a fact that the BBSHD can be destroyed with 65A at 48V.

https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/03/01/my-bbshd-was-

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

Keep in mind, Karl was hell bent on destroying the BBSHD. Alan here is using a sine wave controller. The controller I'm using is a square wave, but has a very gentle start. I'm sure if you mash it, you can peanut butter the gears in no time.

I know Gman has pushed the amps to 60 or 90 on the Cyclone, but I think those were just peak amps for his speed run, right? He doesn't run it continously like that as far as I know.

For me, the biggest thing with the BBSHD is the sound level. Even at high RPMs, it seems quieter than the Cyclone, but I can only judge by videos. I wish I knew someone with a Cyclone 3000 nearby.

 

[robocam]

When Gman says peak, I think he means more like a sustained burst (not peak in the sense of RMS vs peak) like several seconds. He does say that he's operated it at 5200W a few times to get his trike over 60+ mph. As far as I'm concerned, that's more of a continuous rating. Peak to me is milliseconds. His exact words are in the link below. But anyway you read it, it's still impressive. Usually, electronics like this are way overrated, so to find something that can actually perform beyond its ratings is impressive.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1375#p1223967

To me, it doesn't really matter how Karl destroyed his BBSHD because if it's possible, the same thing will probably happen to me. I don't want to have to baby the unit. But if I get it, I don't plan to run a ton of current through it. I'll probably just use it stock with a 52V battery at first and maybe increase it to 40 amps if it's not powerful enough.

Here's an interesting quote I just came across while reading Karl's articles.

"At 2500W with the cyclone system your pedal effort always feels pretty much useless (why was I pedalling again?). On the BBS02 and the BBSHD you generally can tell that whatever energy you’re throwing into the drive train is not totally going to waste as these two drive units can struggle on steep hills and at higher speeds."

https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/02/19/its-my-mid-drive-and-ill-fry-if-i-want-to-the-bbs02-bbshd-cyclone-shopping-guide/

This article makes me want to get the BBSHD.

https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/02/08/3-months-of-singletrack-abuse-on-a-bbshd-this-masochistic-mid-drive-still-begs-for-more/

But part of me knows I would miss the power of the Cyclone. I think of the Cyclone as a supercharged big block while the Bafang is a high-revving import. As a driver of an import with a high-revving engine, I frequently wish I had more torque. But what I like about the Bafang is its PAS system and lack of noise. Does anyone know if you can use the hand throttle while the PAS is active? Can I use any twist throttle with the BBSHD?

Keep in mind, Karl was hell bent on destroying the BBSHD. Alan here is using a sine wave controller. The controller I'm using is a square wave, but has a very gentle start. I'm sure if you mash it, you can peanut butter the gears in no time.

I know Gman has pushed the amps to 60 or 90 on the Cyclone, but I think those were just peak amps for his speed run, right? He doesn't run it continously like that as far as I know.

For me, the biggest thing with the BBSHD is the sound level. Even at high RPMs, it seems quieter than the Cyclone, but I can only judge by videos. I wish I knew someone with a Cyclone 3000 nearby.

 

[evolutiongts]

Rest assured, I flogged the shit out of my BBSHD for the last 400 miles at whole open throttle through each gear. High speed runs up to 50mph down last vegas strip, and 2000ft climbs at wide open throttle. Motor runs perfect just like the day I first got it, but much stronger. If you go with a small front sprocket, reduce the load, you'll gain significantly more torque and RPM's.

I sure don't miss my Cyclone any longer, as my BBSHD is torquey as hell. Cyclone 3000W can take more power I am sure, but I have my BBSHD geared perfectly right now maximizing power and minimizing heat build up and amp draw.

I agree that the BBSHD feels like a high revving import but it does have the torque if you get down, hell I'm afraid to give it too much throttle from a standstill cause It will wheelie and try to throw you off ;D

You can use PAS while throttle inactive and yes you can use any throttle with the BBSHD you just need to change the plug. If you get my controller, I already have a twist throttle, 3 speed, and a Cycle Analyst Pre-wired for you already.

 

[robocam]

That is good to hear. Looks like you may have found the sweet spot for high-powered BBSHDs.

Is this your controller?

https://www.electricrt.com/collections/controllers-1/products/bafang-bbshd-sinewave-external-controller-upgrade-72v-40a

Could you explain what you mean in your last sentence? So a twist throttle is included? What do you mean 3 speed? The controller has a 3-speed selector like the Cyclone? So you mean it has a Cycle Analyst connector?

How is the PAS system compared to the one on the BBSHD? Part of the reason I like the BBSHD is because its PAS system.

...Motor runs perfect just like the day I first got it, but much stronger. If you go with a small front sprocket, reduce the load, you'll gain significantly more torque and RPM's.

...You can use PAS while throttle inactive and yes you can use any throttle with the BBSHD you just need to change the plug. If you get my controller, I already have a twist throttle, 3 speed, and a Cycle Analyst Pre-wired for you already.

 

[liveforphysics]

Nice ride! Looks quick!

 

[evolutiongts]

Yes that's my controller.

Twist throttle will be an option.

Controller supports a 3-speed switch like the Cyclone, it is also fully programmable. So you can configure your 3 speed settings like 0-130% speed 0-110% current settings.

It has a Cycle Analyst Connector included and it is recommended that you use a CAV3 as my connector has a temp sensor connect already reading off the BBSHD's temp sensor.

I have not tried the PAS on the CA yet, I will try it this weekend when I wire it up to the CA. I can use the existing PAS sensor inside the motor. Everything should and seem integrate with the CA quite nicely.

That is good to hear. Looks like you may have found the sweet spot for high-powered BBSHDs.

Is this your controller?

https://www.electricrt.com/collections/controllers-1/products/bafang-bbshd-sinewave-external-controller-upgrade-72v-40a

Could you explain what you mean in your last sentence? So a twist throttle is included? What do you mean 3 speed? The controller has a 3-speed selector like the Cyclone? So you mean it has a Cycle Analyst connector?

How is the PAS system compared to the one on the BBSHD? Part of the reason I like the BBSHD is because its PAS system.

...Motor runs perfect just like the day I first got it, but much stronger. If you go with a small front sprocket, reduce the load, you'll gain significantly more torque and RPM's.

...You can use PAS while throttle inactive and yes you can use any throttle with the BBSHD you just need to change the plug. If you get my controller, I already have a twist throttle, 3 speed, and a Cycle Analyst Pre-wired for you already.

 

[evolutiongts]

Nice ride! Looks quick!

Thanks Luke, that means a lot to me

 

[evolutiongts]

Left the GoPro at home, but here's a quick flyby at 88V

[youtube]Vv-c7xr4AtQ[/youtube]

 

[Green Machine]

wow nice work..... nice to see innovation in the mid drive ebike field and actual testing.

Great work Alan!

 

[evolutiongts]

Thanks Eric! Appreciate it.

Banging through the gears like a motorcycle transmission.

[youtube]dRzAgH7ivb0[/youtube]

wow nice work..... nice to see innovation in the mid drive ebike field and actual testing.

Great work Alan!

 

[Green Machine]

of course you know you voided your warranty..... lol just joking......

we got you covered with parts if you need them big man

its great to see the energy you and corbin are bringing on...



ERIC

 

[drew12345]

This is so cool. I really love the BBSHD. The cyclone I had was so noisy.

I didn't realize you were selling the controller for this. I must have missed it. So is it simple to disconnect the bafang controller and use yours? Is there documentation. I want to see effort involved. Thanks.

 

[cwah]

I overvolted on the past many geared motor and they all worked fine for the initial few thousand miles.

Motor were 3 BPM and 1 mac at 74V 40A

But after 3-5 thousand miles they've been all destroyed. Most of the time from damaged clutch.

So please report when you pass the 3k and 5k miles mark

 

[evolutiongts]

The clutch is metal it shouldn't be a problem, I might make a metal gear to replace the nylon gear.

 

[evolutiongts]

Now running on 88V! More usable RPM's in each gear.

[youtube]qP4zyzEUZhY[/youtube]

 

[Föppel]

Nice man!
like the others, im also very interested in how durable the BBSHD with that much power will be.
i had mounted a external controller (35-40amp) to the BBS02, and Motor was getting really hot after some small hills.
It was very noisy, maybe some sort of "wrong controller for that Motor"? --> it was the standard GNG 450W-kit controller i used...

 

[Megsy73]

The clutch is metal it shouldn't be a problem, I might make a metal gear to replace the nylon gear

Why would you put a metal gear wear the plastic one is ? That's the whole reason this kit is quiet ??

Also like others have mentioned putting an external controller with higher voltage makes it a lot noisier and less compact, which were its main benefits ?

You might as well now just buy a mini cyclone if you're not concerned about the noise. Cheecky bloke has done 9000 miles on them, Cyclone will also be a cheaper and lighter as the motor is higher KV and since it has external freewheels easier to maintain when they fail. Like others have mentioned freewheel are the weak link..

 

[evolutiongts]

The clutch is metal it shouldn't be a problem, I might make a metal gear to replace the nylon gear

Why would you put a metal gear wear the plastic one is ? That's the whole reason this kit is quiet ??

Also like others have mentioned putting an external controller with higher voltage makes it a lot noisier and less compact, which were its main benefits ?

You might as well now just buy a mini cyclone if you're not concerned about the noise. Cheecky bloke has done 9000 miles on them, Cyclone will also be a cheaper and lighter as the motor is higher KV and since it has external freewheels easier to maintain when they fail. Like others have mentioned freewheel are the weak link..

Its not that much noiser at high RPM's only because camera is close to the motor. 12fet sine wave controller is quite compact no larger than the Cyclone Controller. The BBSHD doesn't use freewheels which improves it reliability.

 

[robocam]

Isn't the clutch the equivalent of the freewheel? Something has to serve the same purpose.

The BBSHD doesn't use freewheels which improves it reliability.

 

[Megsy73]

From the videos online 72v sounds a lot louder than the standard voltage bbshd thats up in the astro rpm noise territory?? Freewheel / one way clutch is the same thing they all fail and if its internal its a lot harder and more expensive to replace than an external freewheel, especially at power levels this wasn't designed for, they will fail more often...

 

[evolutiongts]

From the videos online 72v sounds a lot louder than the standard voltage bbshd thats up in the astro rpm noise territory?? Freewheel / one way clutch is the same thing they all fail and if its internal its a lot harder and more expensive to replace than an external freewheel, especially at power levels this wasn't designed for, they will fail more often...

If you look from my 3rd person can there's almost no noise. Its still very quiet.

 

[evolutiongts]

88V is the way to go, definitely. I literally stay in the lower 4 gears of the time. 1st gear takes me to 20mph with monstrous torque, this motor loves to rev. I'm giving it 2500-3000W repeatedly on the flats and the temp barely climb. Everything is holding together.

I think Robocam nailed the analogy of the BBSHD as a high revving inline 4 and the Cyclone 3K as a big V-twin.

 

[robocam]

When you say lower gears, you're referring to the larger cogs in the back right? I just want to be sure. Can you take a picture of your chainline from the back of the bike, looking toward the front, with the crankset chainring lined up with the middle cog in the rear, with the chain on the largest cog? I want to see what the chainline looks like.

How many max amps does it draw the way you're running it? Would you say the motor acts like a typical electric motor with a fairly constant torque starting from zero rpm, or does it come alive at the higher rpms?

You've made me really interested in this motor now!

Do you have a post or video talking about how you hooked up the controller to the BBSHD?

88V is the way to go, definitely. I literally stay in the lower 4 gears of the time. 1st gear takes me to 20mph with monstrous torque, this motor loves to rev. I'm giving it 2500-3000W repeatedly on the flats and the temp barely climb. Everything is holding together.

I think Robocam nailed the analogy of the BBSHD as a high revving inline 4 and the Cyclone 3K as a big V-twin.