Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

[nzxcel]

I found this thread while searching for a solution to my Phaserunner MT cutting out connected to a BBSHD. When I connected my controller to the Phaserunner suite, it was reading an "Instantaneous phase overcurrent" fault. I have seen others with the same problem and I've found a solution to it.

After running a simulation through the Grin Motor Simulator with my configuration, I noticed that at low speeds the phase current is at its highest and will reach the maximum 96A. The Phaserunner has a hard fault current limit which seems to also be at 96A. The issue presents itself when you set your phase current limit close to the maximum of 96A. I believe the throttling for the phase current limit you specify is not flat enough to keep it under the hard limit, so phase current spikes under hard acceleration at low speed will trigger a fault.

While the recommended adjustment of increasing PLL and Current Regulator settings may help with the current spikes by smoothing out the measurements, I think the solution to this problem is lowering the phase current limit to about 85A or lower. This will mean throttling will occur low enough below the hard limit that the Phaserunner will not get the "Instantaneous phase overcurrent" fault by creating a buffer zone.

 

[Brahimahmeti]

hello, impossible for me to set the flagship runner and the bbshd, all the xml of this site does not work with mine. can you set me parameters please. by accelerating I have 1 buzz at the level of the runner phase, I have all tried but no way to adjust it correctly. bbshd72v.

 

[VRMinde]

hello, impossible for me to set the flagship runner and the bbshd, all the xml of this site does not work with mine. can you set me parameters please. by accelerating I have 1 buzz at the level of the runner phase, I have all tried but no way to adjust it correctly. bbshd72v.

I read that thread and tried the XML settings file, but still getting the same error.

 

[Bumphrey Hogart]

I'm considering putting a phase runner /CA3 on my BBSHD. Whats the concensus? People happy with them or kind of introduced other problems?

I just don't want to take a good running bike and make it more finicky.

 

[amberwolf]

What are your needs that the PR will satisfy that the working system doesn't?

If there arent' any, then I wouldn't change anything.

 

[Yermommy]

I have a Phaserunner MT and CA3 paired to an old 72v pack. It took some time to get the phaserunner settings right. I got a lot of motor stutter after doing autotune. Before I fixed it, 1/5 throttle the motor would stop as soon as it picked up the drivetrain slack. When the chain pulled against the gears, it would cut, then it would start again until it hit the chain and it would stop again. The result was a chain-breaking routine that was unrideable. I fixed it by changing some of the motor settings. If anybody needs to see my parameters, let me know.

 

[Bumphrey Hogart]

What are your needs that the PR will satisfy that the working system doesn't?

If there arent' any, then I wouldn't change anything.

Well that's a very valid question, my personality is typically mod everything.

Things I like is being able to slow the ramp up of power (smoother), leaving it in one or two gears and getting the same speed using field weakening. Very mountainous where I live so that extra power would come in handy and I know the motor can handle it. Eventually I'll probably go 72v.

That said I'll probably leave it as is for the time being as I dont even go above 5 out of 9 typically and usually on power 2 or 3.

Thanks for the input and the question that made me think. I've just recently built it and am blown away by how fun it is and just scratching the surface.

Then I guess possible cons, losing a nicer looking display to put the cycle analyst on, I have the C18 and really like it (CA is not horrible looking but pretty plain) Could bring some headaches in getting it setup right.

 

[amberwolf]

Well that's a very valid question, my personality is typically mod everything.

I used to do that, just to see what happens...but not everyone wants to troubleshoot things all the time, so modding everything doesn't work for everybody (hence the question).

Things I like is being able to slow the ramp up of power (smoother), leaving it in one or two gears and getting the same speed using field weakening. Very mountainous where I live so that extra power would come in handy and I know the motor can handle it. Eventually I'll probably go 72v.

I'll guess you aren't pedalling with it? (because you'd likely have to physically change gears for both motor and pedals to keep up with it as it goes faster (due to the gearing change) the way it is now, but you'd be changing gears only with the motor (electrically) with FW, and the pedals wouldn't go any faster because you'd be in the same mechanical gear.

If you *are* pedalling with it, then you'd have to put in a larger front pedal chainring to compensate, which will decrease the ability to pedal at slower speeds and get the same torque (without more human torque input).

Remember that FW will generally use more power and make the motor hotter for the same usable motor output.

Then I guess possible cons, losing a nicer looking display to put the cycle analyst on, I have the C18 and really like it (CA is not horrible looking but pretty plain)

You don't have to put the CA on the handlebars. If you don't need to see it's information you can place it in the battery casing or any bags you ahve on the bike. You don't even have to use a CA if you don't want to and don't need any of the power-monitoring features, since it doesn't have anything to do with the controller itself (not like the integrated controller/display stuff like the BBSxx have), unless you want PAS.

And there are (small) ways of making a cadence-only PAS sensor to send a throttle-signal instead of cadence pulses without a CA, so it isn't *required* for that, either.

You can use a regular micro-sized bike speedo just to get speed/distance if you need that.

Etc.

Personally I like the CA and what it can do for me...but it doesn't do them quite the way I really want, and I'd have to build external hardware to fix that. So I just use it for what it *does* do while i slowly ponder how to make what I want.

FWIW, something that looks plain often makes a less tempting theft target. But almost any kind of display on a bike might be a target itself, because if they don't know wwhat it is, they only know "it must do something" and maybe it would have resale value if they just cut it off the bike real quick and sell it separately. (depends on the people where you live).

Could bring some headaches in getting it setup right.

That is possible with just the PR, not even involving the CA. The PR is a complex controller, so you would want to first set it up to work with your specific motor (necessary), then to do things the way you want them to happen on your specific ride conditions. Then if you need to tune it beyond it's ability to do so, you can add the CA into the mix and see if it's power/current limiting / signal/throttle processing abilities will further refine the system for you.

As long as you don't make a Basa Klanka out of it in the process, you should be good.

 

[Bumphrey Hogart]

Well that's a very valid question, my personality is typically mod everything.

I used to do that, just to see what happens...but not everyone wants to troubleshoot things all the time, so modding everything doesn't work for everybody (hence the question).

Things I like is being able to slow the ramp up of power (smoother), leaving it in one or two gears and getting the same speed using field weakening. Very mountainous where I live so that extra power would come in handy and I know the motor can handle it. Eventually I'll probably go 72v.

I'll guess you aren't pedalling with it? (because you'd likely have to physically change gears for both motor and pedals to keep up with it as it goes faster (due to the gearing change) the way it is now, but you'd be changing gears only with the motor (electrically) with FW, and the pedals wouldn't go any faster because you'd be in the same mechanical gear.

If you *are* pedalling with it, then you'd have to put in a larger front pedal chainring to compensate, which will decrease the ability to pedal at slower speeds and get the same torque (without more human torque input).

Remember that FW will generally use more power and make the motor hotter for the same usable motor output.

Then I guess possible cons, losing a nicer looking display to put the cycle analyst on, I have the C18 and really like it (CA is not horrible looking but pretty plain)

You don't have to put the CA on the handlebars. If you don't need to see it's information you can place it in the battery casing or any bags you ahve on the bike. You don't even have to use a CA if you don't want to and don't need any of the power-monitoring features, since it doesn't have anything to do with the controller itself (not like the integrated controller/display stuff like the BBSxx have), unless you want PAS.

And there are (small) ways of making a cadence-only PAS sensor to send a throttle-signal instead of cadence pulses without a CA, so it isn't *required* for that, either.

You can use a regular micro-sized bike speedo just to get speed/distance if you need that.

Etc.

Personally I like the CA and what it can do for me...but it doesn't do them quite the way I really want, and I'd have to build external hardware to fix that. So I just use it for what it *does* do while i slowly ponder how to make what I want.

FWIW, something that looks plain often makes a less tempting theft target. But almost any kind of display on a bike might be a target itself, because if they don't know wwhat it is, they only know "it must do something" and maybe it would have resale value if they just cut it off the bike real quick and sell it separately. (depends on the people where you live).

Could bring some headaches in getting it setup right.

That is possible with just the PR, not even involving the CA. The PR is a complex controller, so you would want to first set it up to work with your specific motor (necessary), then to do things the way you want them to happen on your specific ride conditions. Then if you need to tune it beyond it's ability to do so, you can add the CA into the mix and see if it's power/current limiting / signal/throttle processing abilities will further refine the system for you.

As long as you don't make a Basa Klanka out of it in the process, you should be good.

Wow, what a well written and thoughtful reply. Greatly appreciated, I do pedal and want to pedal as I still want this to be exercise even with having a motor on it. I needed to decide what I want this as, a bicycle with electric help, or an electric motorcycle that I just hang on and ride. I want the former as in how it is now, maybe down the road when the power isn't enough I'll consider upgrading but as it sits now it has plenty of power for my needs. It's a beast up steep trails and I can set it in a gear that I can both help some and the motor isn't bogging.

Maybe I can just tweak the software on the stock controller to ramp in the power more subtly in the 5-9 PAS settings not such a hammer hit of power. That's really the only thing I would want to change.

Thanks again for your advice and sharing your experience I'll just leave it as it is controller/display-wise.

 

[Daxxie]

I'm considering putting a phase runner /CA3 on my BBSHD. Whats the concensus? People happy with them or kind of introduced

I installed one on my Bafang Ultra. There were not many other options available at the time.
Installing it is a challenge but setting it up correct... even harder. I tinkered with settings for over 2 years and I never got it perfect.
Powerfull it was but I just couldn't get it smooth. Lots of stress on drivetrain (stuttering etc..)
Field weaking is nice, you can get very high rpm but that wears down the rotor gears so quick.
I'm contacted regularly by people that ask me for settings and help, most of them are not happy with the power delivery.
A German company, Innotrace, made an aftermarket controller for the Ultra. I bought one of those and that thing is just unbelievable. Not that it has so much more power but it is so smooth. The behaviour is perfect. Engages at the correct moment. Stops immediately if you stop pedalling. It makes the Phaserunner feel like an on/off switch!

I have 3 BBSHD bikes, one with a Ludicrous 2500W controller and 2 with 2500W "50A shunt-mod" controllers.
They are great, more then enough power and still smooth.
Get yourselve a good battery and one of those controllers.

 

[Bumphrey Hogart]

I'm considering putting a phase runner /CA3 on my BBSHD. Whats the concensus? People happy with them or kind of introduced

I have 3 BBSHD bikes, one with a Ludicrous 2500W controller and 2 with 2500W "50A shunt-mod" controllers.
They are great, more then enough power and still smooth.
Get yourselve a good battery and one of those controllers.

Are either of those available for purchase? I thought the luna you had to buy a bike to get that controller? Looking for something essentially plug and play.

 

[Daxxie]

Are either of those available for purchase? I thought the luna you had to buy a bike to get that controller? Looking for something essentially plug and play.

Sure I have some available. Send me a PM

 

[Bumphrey Hogart]

Are either of those available for purchase? I thought the luna you had to buy a bike to get that controller? Looking for something essentially plug and play.

Sure I have some available. Send me a PM

Just wanted to say thanks publicly Daxxie, it's exactly what I wanted. I liked the stock functionality with added power.

Perfection :thumb:

 

[dougginnz]

Hi guys! This is my first post here, and I just wanna say thanks for everything!! I've read this thread, and am going to do my first E-Bike build shortly... I have 2 mountain bikes, a specialized hard Rock 29", and an opus mallard w/ marzochi forks, SRAM eagle electronic shifting, dropper, etc.... Anyhow, I've decided to do my specialized into an E-Bike. Initially, I was going to get a cyclone 3000w setup.... But, luckily I found this thread!!! This setup, is unquestionably a much better option!!!

So, I'm ordering a bbshd kit, a phase runner controller, bbshd wiring harness, cycle analyst CAP-W3, and sourced a large 72v 25ah triangle pack (500.00!) I'm not sure what else I'll need? Im not sold on brake cut off sensors, as I'm using hydraulic disks, or would they be necessary, running the settings such as the motor is always spinning, even just a little at no throttle? And, should I install a shift sensor? Is it necessary, or beneficial? I may upgrade my drive train to the SRAM EAGLE ASX on this thing as well.... It just shifts so nice. Anyhow, lmk if my setup looks good, or if I'm missing anything.

Thanks again for all your contributions here! This info is priceless, and shaped my purchasing decisions, and in the end undoubtedly saved me alot of money, through trial and error...

 

[n2mb]

Take a look at the CYC x1 pro with the ASI Bac 855 controller. Same or more power, lighter motor.

 

[napmen]

Hi guys, can i get help with setting up Prop regen braking.
I have Cycle analyst 3.1, Phaserunner_MT V3 and BBSHD cabling, all from Grin Technologies.
I connected everything, also got throttle with BBSHD motor. I connected the throttle directly to CA. Throttle output signal from Ca says normal throttle voltage 1.0 to 4.25, when ebrake is applied i set it down to 0.7volt and then to zero when throttle is added while e brake is pressed. Enabled e brake regen, set up the voltages in throttle+brake parametes in Phaserunner suite. No regen showed, 0 amps shown when it should display negative Amps/regen applied...
My question. I have left the throttle cable on Phaserunner as i have received it. Is there any modification, connection which i forgot to do.
Should i connect ebrake line,or throttle line from CA to Phaserunner throttle input since it says throttle on Phaserunner has throttle and ebrake signal wires ...
Also on the dashboard screen my throttle voltage and brake 2 voltage are the same, but brake 1 voltage is 4.73- as if somehow it is different line and when i squeeze brakes both brake 2 and throttle voltage on dashboard show 0.7 volts as set, but brake 1 voltage shows steady 4.7 volts.

 

[HrKlev]

Unless you have done some extensive redesign of your bbshd and your driveline there is no way to use regen on a bbshd mid-drive setup, unfortunately.

 

[napmen]

Unless you have done some extensive redesign of your bbshd and your driveline there is no way to use regen on a bbshd mid-drive setup, unfortunately.

Thanks for the info, did not know that..
Did some research, know i understand why, anyway Thanks

 

[pomah]

Hi, I had to replace my broken controller of the BBS01 with a new one and since I had a phaserunner from before I decided to use that one.

I just wanted to confirm that the Kp=1 Ki=10 settings mentioned earlier in this thread work like a charm on a bbs01 with a 48V (13s) battery. I have the max power caped at 900W and battery max current at 20A, phase amps at 35A.

Using the CA3 I have a slow up ramp on the throttle 0,5 sec. No jidder, just a nice and calm acceleration up to desired speed.

With a 38T front ring, 11 rear cog, and 13s battery pack I get a top speed of 46 km/h on the bbs01. This is with semi fat 27,5 inch tires.

 

[n2mb]

Do you all have "Instantaneous phase over current" cutouts with the phase runner? A bunch of us are running the BAC 855 and BAC 2000 controllers on the CYC x1 pro motors and the controller cuts out under hard acceleration on bumpy terrain. It's pretty annoying. Even with moderate, low current settings, it easily trips the 122A instantaneous motor current limit on my BAC 855.

 

[DtiK]

I have cyclone 3kW mid drive, put in chains without freewheels, and intended to use with regen brake. It works good until battery charge comes closer to empty than full. When it fails to work, controller goes to fault state with message saying 'instantaneous over voltage fault'.

I have an 84V battery and it's overvoltage fault limit in phaserunner suite advanced tab set to a maximum of 88.9V etc. Still it comes. Pretty dangerous if the only brake Regen ..

Can you give any ideas or solutions to fix this?

 

[tomjasz]

OK, meet the new CA3-CX (Custom whatever)...
Here the CA3-CX with a Phaserunner CX on the BBSHD. All plug and play.

CA3-CX_Phaserunner_BBSHD.JPG

and here in more detail as PDF file:

CA3-CX_Phaserunner_BBSHD.PDF
.

Now made from “unobtanium”?

 

[tomjasz]

Hi, I had to replace my broken controller of the BBS01 with a new one and since I had a phaserunner from before I decided to use that one.

I just wanted to confirm that the Kp=1 Ki=10 settings mentioned earlier in this thread work like a charm on a bbs01 with a 48V (13s) battery. I have the max power caped at 900W and battery max current at 20A, phase amps at 35A.

Using the CA3 I have a slow up ramp on the throttle 0,5 sec. No jidder, just a nice and calm acceleration up to desired speed.

With a 38T front ring, 11 rear cog, and 13s battery pack I get a top speed of 46 km/h on the bbs01. This is with semi fat 27,5 inch tires.

Have you burned it up yet? I’d love an update.

 

[pomah]

Hi, I had to replace my broken controller of the BBS01 with a new one and since I had a phaserunner from before I decided to use that one.

I just wanted to confirm that the Kp=1 Ki=10 settings mentioned earlier in this thread work like a charm on a bbs01 with a 48V (13s) battery. I have the max power caped at 900W and battery max current at 20A, phase amps at 35A.

Using the CA3 I have a slow up ramp on the throttle 0,5 sec. No jidder, just a nice and calm acceleration up to desired speed.

With a 38T front ring, 11 rear cog, and 13s battery pack I get a top speed of 46 km/h on the bbs01. This is with semi fat 27,5 inch tires.

Have you burned it up yet? I’d love an update.

Nope, I rolled back the settings down to 700W (yeah I know chicken ) but that has so far worked great for me. I am building a new battery pack and thinking of increasing max power to around 1,2 kW and see how that goes but I really do not need that much power for my commuting.

 

[tomjasz]

Thanks for the update!!!