Unlimited range pedal bike w/ E-assist – My first build!

[63corvairsprint]

I have posted a few other threads as I was contemplating exactly which kit / ebike setup I was going to go with.

As stated in prior threads my concept was for a commuter/trainer as I am already an active cyclist and want to ride my bike to and from work for training for an upcoming Half Iron man Triathlon I will be competing in. My issue was that I need to be able to get to work in the morning without being a sweaty mess and was looking for an electric assist to support my light to moderate pedaling to get me to work. Then the ride home would be under full human power. Based on these criteria, I needed a free wheel motor with light weight being more important than either top speed or distance. This ride is mainly flat county roads, with minimal stops and about 19 miles one way.

I made my decision and have all parts ordered, to date the only thing I have received is the geared rear motor laced into a 700c rim with a 7 speed freewheel, the controller, motor cutoff brake levers, and throttle choices. I am still waiting on my battery pack to arrive as well as my Cycle Analyst, and 11-32, 8 speed freewheel. Once everything arrives I will begin my build and keep regular updates. I am very aware that there are individual kits that ship directly from overseas that could have been sourced cheaper, but I was pretty set on keeping my orders to businesses inside the US, not only for support of “local” shops, but for customer service and shipping. I know we have a few over seas vendors that have proven them selves to be excellent providers of product and customer service, but I am willing to live with my decision.

For the motor/controller/kit I went with a kit from E-bikekit, Jason from E-bikekit was very helpful and patiently answered many of my newbie questions. My only complaint about the E-bikekit hub is my lack of knowing “what” exact motor I have purchased. I really don’t know the manf. or specifications of the hub. When I told Jason about my interest in more speed over torque and using a 700c rim, the 700c conversion required cutting a motor out of a pre built smaller size and lacing into a 700c. Since I wanted “speed” wind over a “torque” wind he suggested I order a 20” rim and hub motor as the motors that were installed in them we the higher speed style. I may reach back out to him and see if I can get a straight answer as to the specific make/model of hub motor I have. When I took it out of the package I could not find any specifics on the hub. I am not sure if they order them un-marked or remove the manufacturing label from them.

Bike Kit delivered with addition of freewheel removal tool, total $539 to my front door, http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=138&parent=4

The parts arrived and appear to be all ready to go. They were packaged well and arrived safely.

I plan one initially assembling the kit on an existing bike I own, it is a Trek 7200 FX SL Triple crank, 8 speed with front and rear disc, this is an older hybrid with a large open triangle and 700x32 street tires.. My end goal is to build up a lightweight cyclocross frame and transplant the Ebike parts on it to get the road bike performance and feel with the E assist.

I’ll be going out shortly to swap tires, disc brake, and various components and fit the rear wheel on the bike in the next few minutes…

I will post pics, issues, questions, and comments as I go thru the remainder of the build…

 

[dogman dan]

Good plan for a cyclist like you. The speed wind will take off from a stop poorly, but likely you could care less about that. With a few pumps from strong legs instead of motor for the first 20 feet, then kick in the motor at 15 mph you will avoid the pitfall of making heat and wasting watts on the start with a fast wind motor fed low amps. Above 15 mph, you'll love a 400w assist when you want to arrive at work with some energy left.

Strong as you sound, I bet you barely notice the weight of it when you ride home motor off. The freewheel will drag a tiny bit, but not enough to care about if you are training.

You won't find out what motor that is from Jason. But it doesn't matter, it's a muxus ish something, and Jason makes sure it's not horribly made. His kits are quite a quality product, with a lot of thought going into making them more reliable.

 

[motomech]

I have posted a few other threads as I was contemplating exactly which kit / ebike setup I was going to go with.

As stated in prior threads my concept was for a commuter/trainer as I am already an active cyclist and want to ride my bike to and from work for training for an upcoming Half Iron man Triathlon I will be competing in. My issue was that I need to be able to get to work in the morning without being a sweaty mess and was looking for an electric assist to support my light to moderate pedaling to get me to work. Then the ride home would be under full human power. Based on these criteria, I needed a free wheel motor with light weight being more important than either top speed or distance. This ride is mainly flat county roads, with minimal stops and about 19 miles one way.

I made my decision and have all parts ordered, to date the only thing I have received is the geared rear motor laced into a 700c rim with a 7 speed freewheel, the controller, motor cutoff brake levers, and throttle choices. I am still waiting on my battery pack to arrive as well as my Cycle Analyst, and 11-32, 8 speed freewheel. Once everything arrives I will begin my build and keep regular updates. I am very aware that there are individual kits that ship directly from overseas that could have been sourced cheaper, but I was pretty set on keeping my orders to businesses inside the US, not only for support of “local” shops, but for customer service and shipping. I know we have a few over seas vendors that have proven them selves to be excellent providers of product and customer service, but I am willing to live with my decision.

For the motor/controller/kit I went with a kit from E-bikekit, Jason from E-bikekit was very helpful and patiently answered many of my newbie questions. My only complaint about the E-bikekit hub is my lack of knowing “what” exact motor I have purchased. I really don’t know the manf. or specifications of the hub. When I told Jason about my interest in more speed over torque and using a 700c rim, the 700c conversion required cutting a motor out of a pre built smaller size and lacing into a 700c. Since I wanted “speed” wind over a “torque” wind he suggested I order a 20” rim and hub motor as the motors that were installed in them we the higher speed style. I may reach back out to him and see if I can get a straight answer as to the specific make/model of hub motor I have. When I took it out of the package I could not find any specifics on the hub. I am not sure if they order them un-marked or remove the manufacturing label from them.

Bike Kit delivered with addition of freewheel removal tool, total $539 to my front door, http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=138&parent=4

The parts arrived and appear to be all ready to go. They were packaged well and arrived safely.

I plan one initially assembling the kit on an existing bike I own, it is a Trek 7200 FX SL Triple crank, 8 speed with front and rear disc, this is an older hybrid with a large open triangle and 700x32 street tires.. My end goal is to build up a lightweight cyclocross frame and transplant the Ebike parts on it to get the road bike performance and feel with the E assist.

I’ll be going out shortly to swap tires, disc brake, and various components and fit the rear wheel on the bike in the next few minutes…

I will post pics, issues, questions, and comments as I go thru the remainder of the build…

No great unchartered territory here. Any grey areas are a result of politics, but fearless Dogman uttered the M word and that is what it is. And now I might be as bold and "au contraire" our great God/Hero, Justin, and offer that it only comes in one wind/gear ratio. Use the Ebike simulator and their Ezee 400W 26" motor[different motor] @ 96% throttle and you have it. Try the various combos of wheel size, Voltages, etc. and you will see that the results match the geared motor data listed on the kit page.
As far as what your goals are[as I understand them]they are well documented here as well, his name is Russell. He's done a ton of research with mini-motors and 700cc roadies and his builds should be your model. He prefers higher speed winds, the "328's" or 24 Volt motors. D8veh has contributed quite a bit as well, more on Pedelectics UK, than here.
Now I would be the last to question buying a kit from Ebikes, but in going with this motor, you are painting yourself in a corner, especially if you are thinking about the battery I think you must be thinking about, a 48V LI-on. That's the kit I have been using for a couple of years and while it's been a great noobie kit, it has limitations for the serious cyclist wanting to combine assist and workout. I'll tell you why.
Although your intent is to use the assist going in and to only use leg-power on the way home, I reckon, like so many before, you will discover that you can retain some assist, up the effort, go faster, further and have more fun while getting the work-out you seek. But you need the right motor, battery, controller combo for this to work best.
When talking about hyper-miling, Dogman often recommends setting a speed that one can peddle above 1 to 2 mph. With your cycling prowless, you can sett a speed and pedal considerably more into the mix. But what is needed is a power curve that plateaus after the no-load speed, rather than falls off a cliff. Russell's formula involves a fast wind motor, highish Voltage and lowish Amperage.
Now look @ the sim. again. Plug in the Ebike kit with their Ezee "off the shelf" 48V battery and their 20 A controller and you will see motor power peaked @ 725W @ 20 mph and is falling sharply as the line falls though the no-load speed of 24 mph. Past the no-load, you will not be able to "reach down' very far to contribute much, irregardless of input.
So if the &^&^$#+ motor is not really a fast wind[more like a mid, as mini's go], what you can do is up the Volts and reduce the current.
Back to the sim., this time with the 52 V Ping, but staying with the stock controller. Hummm...same curve, just bigger. Now, reduce the controller Amps to 12, there's that plateau! Notice that no-load remains the same, 23.5 mph, BUT, your additional 100 Watts will raise that to 25 mph. Had your Wheaties, 200 watts and you are flying @ 26.5 mph, That's the game you want in on. All with reasonable gearing of 11/48 or 11/46.
Bottom line, I would recommend a battery with at least 52V. 55V would be better. Cell_man's 52.something V, 9Ah A123 battery would shine as a prime mover.
Then start reducing the Amps. This can be done with the C.A. or buy simply buying a cheap 14 A controller.
All this has been on my mind awhile, as I am currently retiring the #@&%$# motor to pasture and going with a fast wind, high volts/low amps build at the moment. But one with a slight twist.

 

[63corvairsprint]

It took a little longer to get the rear wheel installed than I expected. I decided a the last minute to add some puncture protection and took a quick trip to the store to buy some Slime tube liners for my 700c rims.

I weighed the stock 700c with 700x35 Bontrager HardCase tires and the weight came in at 5.24 lbs. A few minutes later, I had everything swapped over to the new 700c rim and hub motor. With the disc, spacer, tube, tire liner, and tires it “gained” 6.24lbs and weighed in a total of 11.48 lbs.

Upon the first fitting, the bolts that hold on the disc rotor we hitting the brake caliper bracket. Took off the wheel again, removed the disc spacer and tried a 2nd time. Apparently that was only part of the problem as there was still rub where the flange on the disc side of the motor was rubbing the brake bracket in another spot.

The rim came off several more times as I tried different spacer and washer combo on either side to try and get the caliper and disc to line up, and move the hub and disc hardware away enough to not hit or rub anything.

I ended up not having the right combo of thicknesses to achieve my goal, so I had to dig a thin enough washer from some other hardware. I had to drill it out to fit over the axle, but once done everything lined right up and spun freely.

I am still waiting on my Cycle Analyst to arrive but started mocking up battery/controller placement.
View attachment 3

 

[63corvairsprint]

Received my shipping notification from Grin yesterday….just waiting patiently for everything to arrive..

Here is a little breakdown of what I have so far…

Total to date $ 1325.04

E-bikekit $539.00
Ebike.ca $213.55
Gocartlite $535.00
LBS $13.99
Fabric $13.50
Tayor $10.00

The 2nd part of the kit ordered is from Ebike.ca (Grin Cyclery) www.ebike.ca Ben at Ebike.ca was also very helpful during my phone conversations with him.

I wanted the cycle analyst to monitor my battery usage and real time performance data. I also wanted to upgrade my current 7 spd 13-35 freewheel to a more road speed friendly 8 spd, 11-32 freewheel.

The total cost of this order was $213.55
$ 150.00 ( 1 ) CA-LSA
$ 5.00 ( 1 ) wire anderson connectors onto CA
$ 10.00 ( 2 ) Axle spacer washers for 8-9 spd conversion
$ 28.00 ( 1 ) 8spd 11-32 freewheel
$ 20.55 Shipping

Additional parts sourced locally..

$13.99 ( 1 ) set of slime anti puncture liners in 700x35mm size.
$13.50 1 square yard of heavy duty 100% polyester black outdoor canvas for custom top tube hanging battery bag.


The battery I opted to purchase goes against some of the suggestions of some of the forum members, but I suspect the end result that I am looking for may be slightly different than the end result they are looking for. I decided to go against the grain and order a small lightweight “tube” battery from Doug at Gocartlite. I am looking forward to being able to report my findings on the viability of this battery, whether good or bad and move forward from there.

The battery is LiMn and spec’d out at 36v 1.05AH battery and only weight 7 lbs. I am banking on with MY pedal power input, the smaller LiMn battery will allow me to still meet my electric assist goal and maintain a decent speed on my way into work. There could be a day where I decide to upgrade to RC packs to get the increased power and light weight, but the initial charging/monitoring equipment and in-ability to charge them at work

Total cost $535.00
$450.00 ( 1 ) 36v 10.5Ah LiMn battery (15x3.5x3.5 and 7 lbs)
$ 55.00 ( 1 ) extra LiMn charger to leave at work
$ 30.00 shipping


My goal is to not have a true Ebike, but a pedal trainer with electric assist for when I need it.. So I want tit to look like a bicycle and have the E components blend in with the normal bike. My inspiration came from the “look” of the Hi power cycles cyclocross style hard tail, but with the crazy power ratings and high cost.

 

[motomech]

You can pedal faster than that battery will take you.
Well, at least it will be there for a little help in the hills.
Actual capacity for "bottle" batteries is 7 to 8 Ah.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

Congrats!

 

[dogman dan]

For the kit you chose, the tube battery should be adequate. It just doesn't have that big a capacity, so for those of us who pedal less, it would not be enough size.

What I really discourage, is using smaller size batteries with more powerful 20 amp controllers and direct drive motors when the rider has to climb hills.

 

[63corvairsprint]

Got my Cycle Analyst in the mail yesterday.... couldn't resist throwing everything on the test mule and going for a spin!!! First E-ride was awesome, even though it was just around the block and up and down the street.

I am looking forward to "gathering" some data and testing out various ranges based on power output.

I was wearing my GPS watch and topping out at 19.4mph into the wind, full upright on my hybrid. I was in the 20.5 range with the wind and easily cruised at 21-22 with minimal pedal input. I am going to have some difficulties to overcome mounting the throttle as my shifters and brakes are shaped in such a way that I can seem to mount either the thump or twist throttle in a way that doesn’t interfere with the shifter or the ability to squeeze the brake lever. I have to spend more time jockeying them around on a different set of bars I plan to install.

I need to learn more about the data that the CA displays, what it means to me, and how to better use.

I plan on downloading the manual today and spending my "lunch" with it... any tips from the experienced here would help..

 

[63corvairsprint]

Finally got some time this weekend to finalize and wrap up installation of my battery, controller, and CA. Had some problems installing my 26mm road bars and stem as planned due to all the E bike components being sized for an actual 25.4mm bar… so still using the old straight bar that was on the hybrid. Located a 25.4mm drop bar and stem, just waiting for it to arrive and get installed.

Charged everything up from my test rides over night last night and rode the bike in for my first E bike commute to work.

Very happy with my first ride, at the start of the ride my voltage read 40 volts on my CA. I covered 20.23 miles at an average speed of 19.2 MPG (recorded off my Garmin). This includes the lower speeds while stopping for stop signs, intersections, and decelerating for corners. I used 8.5 AH during the trip out of the stated 10.5 AH battery. Most of my trip the speedo read around 20-21 mph with a very light pedal input from me. I pedaled up to around 12-15mph from each stop before powering up the motor.

My voltage was reading right around 34 volts as I pulled into the parking lot at work. This was with about 5 miles of a 6 mph headwind and the remaining distance with the same speed crosswind and 1 hill (bridge over river) dropped to 13 mph up and sped up to 25 mph down…

I think I will try a ride in with ZERO pedal input at max speed and see how far it takes me before I have to take over.

 

[63corvairsprint]

Update..

I have gotten the opportunity to get a few E-commutes in on my bike and have to say that I am quite pleased. I still haven't installed my 11tooth freewheel or my custom battery bag as I have been tied up in some other projects.

So far all my commutes have averaged between 19-21 miles in different conditions. Each trip has "used" between 8.4AH and 9.6AH (the 9.6 was 10 miles into a 16mph headwind) so my 36V 105ah LiMn tube battery has been performing very well.

I top out at 20.4 MPH with no assist and cruise quite nicely at 21-22mph with some pedal assist..

I have still not sorted out my E brake cutoff not working, hopefully after this big yard project I stared is comeplete I can get back to trouble shooting the Ebrake cutoff levers, installing the new freewheel, and finishing my battery cover.