Unused space in batteries

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Feb 26, 2018
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154
Seems like batteries for vehicles often comes with cylindrical cells like 18650 size.
Is there some reason for this?

If you hold 3 cylindrical cells together there are some unused space/air between them.
And when put in a frame to hold the cells the gap is even larger.
Is there some reason to have this gap?
I was wondering if it might be so the air can circulate when cells get warm but im not sure if that is needed.

My battery box have lots of unused space/gap/foam padding.
So i wonder if all the space in the battery box was used better if perhaps the battery could have twice the capacity (Ah) in the same battery box size.
Like if the cylindrical cells was removed and instead use square block cells so in theory no space is left unused.
Like lithium-ion polymer i think that can be made in any shape it seems.

I would like to see any scooters that come with lithium batteries that does not use cylindrical cells.
But often i dont see much information for the battery. Just that it is lithium but not the details.
 
Yes, this is certainly an aspect.

A density, is defined as mass of a unit volume of a material substance. The formula for density is d = M/V, where d is density, M is mass, and V is volume. Density is commonly expressed in units of grams per cubic centimetre.

The density is what we are looking at. Cells have two density numbers, an " Energy d" and a " Power d". We will look at the " Energy Density " today.

The cylindrical cell today typically strives for energy density, not power density ( whole nother field of science, there) . Flat cells are typically power dense, but this does not play a role in the discussion today.


It is called packing density science. You will only EVER get 90.6% of the space filled with a cylinder, can shaped object. You can fill a volume 100% with a box shaped object. A sphere? You can only ever get 70% of the volume filled ( packed). However, a sphere is very strong, in stacking. The strongest. Then is the tube, cylinder. The box, rectangle, square is the weaker, in its stacking ability, .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packing_density

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shapes_with_known_packing_constant


Yes, I certainly agree with you, if you have a space, why not FILL it all the way ( 100%). One of the reasons I think cylinder cells are stupid.

Given two chemistry with the same energy density, int he same space, you will fit 10% more energy in the " rectangle shaped packing" than the " cylinder shaped packing".

Lets say our two example cells harbor an energy density of 180wH / kG. One is cylindrical, and one is a flat rectangle ( like a typical lipo cell). You fill the space ( bike battery box you have) with each type, counting the number of cells/ energy you can fill in the space.

The flat, lipo or block shaped battery will fill 100%, you will have a energy density of 180wH/kg.
The cylindrical cells ( 18650, 21700) fill 91%, ... ... so your energy density is 163.8 wH/kG now.

Now you can hold physically LESS energy in the same space. Even though you thought the " 18650 were better cause everyone used them". You wasted 10% of the available " real estate" on the bike... ( real estate is a premium on a bicycle).

So a fully filled volume of a 160wh/kg lipo will give the same final energy density of a 180wH/kg 18650. Everyone says " 18650 are so much better, look at the numbers! they hold more " but really, in practice, they will not because the cylinder only ever fills 90% of the volume.

But it is stronger in stacking. That is all.

It makes a divergence when the difference in energy density is greater than 10%... So a 18650 with 220 wH/kg density will fill a space with the same energy as a 200wH/kg 100% fill. But 200 wH/ kG is rare... in the lipo cells, the energy density maxes out around 180 wH/ kg with todays technology...

There is more copper in Power cells, so the mass per volume reflects that.

SO: IF you can buy a cell 18650 with greater than (( X wH/kG ) + (.1X)) ...( 180 + 18) ....198wH / kG, you CAN fill the volume with more energy density.

Now, cylindrical cells were typically high energy dense. So you go out and but the best you can get, 200wH/kg, energy cylindrical cells. Fill the same space. Now you are at the same energy density of the 100% filed flat rectangle lipo shaped cell pack. 182wH/kg.

Spend a ton, read the advertisements, spend alot, and you might buy the !!! 240wH/kG !!! ( best of the best unobtainium only ever lied about in advertisements) cylindrical cells, and now you have MORE energy density than the 180wH/kg pack in the same volume with a 100% fill. Alot more. So this is why people love the 18650. Strong, packing, and you can fill a 90% space with a density that will beat the 100% fill of the 180wH/ kg cell lesser pack... . but ONLY when you buy super duper energy dense cells.

However, if both chemistry are the same.. ( like the 180wH/kg example above) you will CERTAINLY fit MORE WATT HOURS in the 100% fill.

So if you can beat your flat, rectangle pack with 10% or greater better energy density cells, you will gt more energy in the same volume.

I love rectangular shaped cells, never built with a cylinder...
Cylindrical cells are for flashlights and cheap tool packs in my opinion.

The entire ( everyone) highway going EV manufacturing world uses 100% fill, packing, except for one car manufacturer. Every manufacturer of a modern electric vehicle chose a cell that fills 100%, not 90%. Every. Single. One.
 
Suppose instead of 18650 cells you have something like an enlarged ice hockey puck.
Maybe 30 cm i diameter and 5 cm tall.

Then you stack 13 of those cells in series for a 48 volt battery.
No parallel just one serie.
And then you insert the battery in an cylindrical hole in the scooter.
Then you could make it fill all the space with cylinders.

I kind of like the idea of inserting a battery with round cells that looks like a big AA battery in a scooter.

Then the battery would actually look like the battery indicator on the display too.

But i guess it is easier using small cells to make custom battery sizes/shapes for any vehicle without having to use different cells.
If your factory manufacture all kinds of different electric vehicles i guess just being able to use one cell for all is smart.
 
Yes, certainly.

scootergrisen said:
Suppose instead of 18650 cells you have something like an enlarged ice hockey puck.
Maybe 30 cm i diameter and 5 cm tall.


If your factory manufacture all kinds of different electric vehicles i guess just being able to use one cell for all is smart.


Many factory choose many cell based upon application demand. Certainly. Some factories are cheap, with a cheap product, some are not, .


You would still have a cylinder. Yes, if the final shape is cylindrival, you will have the 100% fill... but that is 1 UNIT.


From the definition I provided earlier. :

A packing density or packing fraction of a packing in some space is the fraction of the space filled by the figures making up the packing.

The optimal packing density or packing constant associated with a supply collection is the supremum of upper densities obtained by packings that are subcollections of the supply collection. If the supply collection consists of convex bodies of bounded diameter, there exists a packing whose packing density is equal to the packing constant, and this packing constant does not vary if the balls in the definition of density are replaced by dilations of some other convex body.[


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infimum_and_supremum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulam%27s_packing_conjecture

Its just math, the way a designer uses it, and applkication constraint .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRGIhqz9vh4

We look at things in X-Y-Z in space. Dimension. Enumeration, based on volume and density.. So.. Sure things change if you have to fit a SQUARE in to a CIRCLE, not a Circle into a SQUARE... But packing density is certainly a thing.

For example, lets put a 2" square in to a circle with a diameter of 2.8284 inch . This is the biggest square you can ffit int here.

Area circle is 6.283 sq inches. Area square is 4 sq inches.

4 / 6.283 = 0.6366

Also known as 2 Pi.

You will fill the circle, with a bound square of a MAXIMUM of 63% of the area.

Yes it is relative. Some is manufacturing of the cell consideration: Lipos are LAYERS OF FLAT and 18650are JELLY ROLLS... so naturally they fit in the respective spaces based on cell design. IF you have a square volume to fill, it best be filled with square things ( 1/1= 1).. and if you have a cylindrical volume, you might be more efficient i filling it with one big CYLINDER (1/1, again, = 1): Sure. However, if you diverge and fractionalize ( x/1) =/= 1) any part of the assy, the rules of packing density adhere, and apply.
 
The cylindrical shape means the assembler does not need to design compression into the battery casing.

Also air circulation between cells helps with heat dissipation for high C-rate applications.
 
Seems like gogoro is trying some new battery technology.
There is a window on the battery into what looks like tall vertical square cells put tightly together without unused space between them.
The battery case is slightly rounded on the outside so not sure if there is unused space on the inside of the box.
Could be that the box is square on the inside.

From what i can find it seems like earlier batteries used 18650 cells (1374 Wh) and 21700 cells (1740 Wh) and that they estimate that this new battery should have 2500 Wh.

So it seems they are going to get double capacity by going from cylindrical 18650 cells to these squares.

https://prologium.com/gogoro-unveils-worlds-first-swappable-solid-state-battery-prototype-for-electric-vehicles/

SSB_mock_up.jpeg
 
They're probably not "square"; just regular flat pouch cells with protective cases around them, like the Leaf or EIG cells, etc. You're just seeing the edges of those casings.

Would be interesting to see the rest of the insides.

All the pictures (and cgi) of Prologium cells I can find are flat styles.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ProLogium+Technologies+cell&tbm=isch
 
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