Update on 48 volt LiPO4 pack from Zane at Aten Energy (Foxx)

[mvadventure]

The initial order for my 48 volt 20 AH batteries was on 8/8/07 and I was told to expect 4 - 6 weeks. As the first four week anniversary passed this week I called Zane and asked him for an order status.

He replied they expected the batteries in next week with yet a new BMS system built into the charger to enhance the battery pack BMS. I do no pretend to understand what he was talking about other then he expects them to ship next week.

As soon as they arrive I will take pics and post initial results. Mounting may present a challenge if they come in a single pack as according to the web site they are 10.6" X 8.15" X 8" and 36 lbs (I converted everything from metric). If these sizes are accurate they won't fit in my Topeak saddlebag center portion as they will be too tall so I may have to put them in the front basket which will accommodate that size with a little nylon tie modification. Be a lot of weight on the front wheel but it's heavy duty anyway. Will also give me a LOT of room aft.

Mike

 

[erdurbin]

Hey Mike,
I too called Zane about my pack last week and he told me it would ship this week. It is nice to know he is still in contact.

 

[mvadventure]

Today is September 14th. Zane (Aten Energy) was to have called me this week as he told me the batteries were to be in earlier this week and shipped right away.

Well, Zane didn't call and there was only an answering machine when I called this afternoon. At 1615 EST I called again and got him. Now he says it will be another "couple" of weeks.

Zane talks a good game and for me it is impossible to tell truth from fiction on the telephone but my AMEX account was charged for the full amount of purchase on the day of the order, 8/8/07 and the receipt promised delivery in 4 - 6 weeks. Fortunately I paid via AMEX as these folks will work with the customer and I will not be out any money should this whole deal fall through which is starting to seem possible. An odor is developing to say the least.

I'm an old fashioned guy who believes that when you say "red" you mean red and I count on red being delivered. The problem here isn't the possibility of a web site with a guy answering the phone trying to steal money, it's the delay in product delivery when other sources could have had earlier deliveries. Unfortunately Aten Energy has no reputation here on the Endless Sphere.

Isn't it amazing that LiPO4 batteries are so hard to buy? Damn the expense, for almost a thousand bucks a pop I would think there would be folks everywhere with good product ready to sell.

We'll see. Fortunately my SLA's are in good shape.

Mike

 

[CGameProgrammer]

I think the problem is that they're all produced by random anonymous Chinese factories with no accountability, and the distributors here simply can't really know if the product will be delivered on schedule or if it'll be done right. A123's nano-LiFePO4 is the best option IMO (albeit a pretty expensive one) because while they are made in China, they're made *by* A123 as opposed to being made *for* A123. It's their own factory, their own training, their own QC, their own R&D (which is done in the U.S.), etc.

Some Chinese lead-acid battery manufacturers have developed reputations for quality, particularly B&B but also Rhino I think. But it's the random companies whom nobody knows anything about that are shady.

 

[mvadventure]

A little trading of emails has generated a "little" understanding on my part and has opened a line of communication.

Zane has offered to refund my money and that is a good thing. I don't want it, I want the batteries but he has explained the delay is being caused by a new charger and BMS system and this will be the first of its type. (beta?)

At any rate, we're still working together.

Mike

 

[green hornet]

these are simply thundersky cells...of course they are cheap,

 

[oatnet]

these are simply thundersky cells...of course they are cheap,

Hmm... Welcome to endless-sphere, thanks for your first post. AFAIK Zane is not using thundersky cells. Sounds like you have perspective on the LiFe the industry though - care to share your experience? Interesting that you are trashing this vendor's product's price and quality, when this discussion is about delivery delays. Are you a competing vendor? Are you already posting here under another name?

I'm an old fashioned guy who believes that when you say "red" you mean red and I count on red being delivered.

I have had a very difficult time adjusting to this aspect of the ebike industry. Nothing ever seems to arrive in a timely fashion - to keep my blood pressure down I have been doubling every lead time I get, so it doesn't feel quite as late when it actually arrives. I agree with cgame's comment, there is no accountability from the Chinese firms, or the manufacturers they depend on, and the intrinisic shipping delays do not help.

For (non-cobalt) lithium packs, the best performance I have so far is with Andy of FalconEV, who promised the LiMn packs in 4 weeks and was able to supply them in 7 weeks. I think that Andy did an excellent job and really came through for me post-sales.

A little trading of emails has generated a "little" understanding on my part and has opened a line of communication.

Zane has offered to refund my money and that is a good thing. I don't want it, I want the batteries but he has explained the delay is being caused by a new charger and BMS system and this will be the first of its type. (beta?)

I believe the BMS issue is an industry-wide problem right now. I don't understand the nature of the BMS problem but every vendor who fess's up seems to report that as the problem. Granted, the price range I am looking at has me dealing with budget suppliers, high-end suppliers may have the problem worked out.

I have not seen or handled Zane's LiFe products yet or done business with him, but he is just a few miles away and saying all of the right things, so I have high hopes for him as a long-term LiFe vendor.

I will be really curious to see how your pack turns out, hopefully I will get a sample pack from him in a similar timeframe. I expect it will weigh far less than the 36lbs his website suggests, last time I talked to him he agreed those weight numbers seemed odd.

-JD

 

[mvadventure]

OK, today is the 22nd and so on the 21st I emailed Zane for a status/update/what's happening report. This AM the following email was in my basket:

Thank you again for your patience, the packs will ship out within 10 days.
We will Fedex the package to you, and issue the tracking #.

Again, I promise the wait will be worth it.

Oatnet has the right attitude as to doubling anticipated lead times. This, after a lifetime in emergency services, is not something I'm good at. I had a Spiritual Adviser tell me to pray for patience but quite frankly I don't want to take the test.

We'll see. Ten days from the 21st will be 10/1/07 and rest assured I will be watching/waiting/anticipating.

Mike

 

[xyster]

I had a Spiritual Adviser tell me to pray for patience but quite frankly I don't want to take the test.

Wouldn't praying for the battery pack to arrive sooner be the more direct path to internal peace?

 

[mvadventure]

Excellent advice and I do pray for the improved health of my bride which is mostly beyond my control. Praying for, as I did one time, for my fuel to hold out until I got to the marina made sense as a boat without fuel is pretty much useless and presents a danger to the crew and everyone else on the water. A diesel boat without fuel is worse because the diesels will probably require a mechanic to get running again after all the nasty stuff from the tanks is sucked in.

Praying for battery delivery however is another matter. This is something I have "some" control over. I could cancel the order, cuss out the vendor, contact all his associates and call him names, threaten his wife and children, hire someone to put sugar in his gas tank and pee on his toilet paper. Unfortunately however I don't speak Chinese and since the vendor is in California, I'm in Florida and the batteries are somewhere on a bench in China waiting for Communism to end, I guess I'll simply have to wait. In reality my biggest problem is the delivery time is encroaching on my vacation time which I normally take in October and November.

Yes, it's true, those of us that are retired and spend our time on the boat, golfing and biking, spoiling grandkids, fishing and puttering in the shop and around the house, need a vacation too. I've got two new scooters ordered just for this trip.

Mike

 

[green hornet]

To start i am not thrashing anyone. Just that the pic on the website shows this battery, and this is a Tsky cell.
Everspring sells them.
They are 3 x's cheaper than everybody else
Because they must have the highest quality i bet ?
AFAIK Tsky does not have BMS's or chargers
maybe thats the reason for the delay...?
I'll be very interested in what is delivered too.

 

[Lanchon]

@mvadventure & erdurbin:

Hi,
any luck with your packs??

 

[erdurbin]

I decided to request a refund since it was taking so long and the e-bike season is coming to a close for me. I told him maybe in the spring.

However, after I got a refund, I was browsing the forum and noticed where some others were getting used tool packs from service centers. It inspired me to try it out. I hit the jackpot and got 45 of the 28volt li-ion (LiMn) Milwaukee packs for free. I only took apart 13 packs (91 cells) to achieve the 50 good cells I need for my 15ah pack. So now I have quite a bit more packs to tinker with and/or rebuild. I will keep everyone posted on that.

 

[xyster]

I hit the jackpot and got 45 of the 28volt li-ion (LiMn) Milwaukee packs for free. I only took apart 13 packs (91 cells) to achieve the 50 good cells I need for my 15ah pack. So now I have quite a bit more packs to tinker with and/or rebuild. I will keep everyone posted on that.

Wow. Great. I'll have to try that now. I'm no CEO, so I just don't get why these service centers aren't required by the head honchos to recycle the good parts back into the manufacturing chain. They'd profit by reselling the packs as refurbs, and in most cases, it seems most of the cells are as good as new.

 

[TylerDurden]

Shhhhhhh..... 8)

 

[Ypedal]

"and got 45 of the 28volt li-ion (LiMn) Milwaukee packs for free"

are you fricken serious ?

 

[OneEye]

I'm no CEO, so I just don't get why these service centers aren't required by the head honchos to recycle the good parts back into the manufacturing chain.

Just a guess, but the labor costs and transportation costs to salvage returned packs may be much higher than the per-unit cost for a new one. Refurbs sell for less than "new" packs, and too many of them in the market can undermine the pricing on the new packs.

Hobbyists tend to think of their time as "free". Employees don't, so businesses can't.

I'm glad folks are succeeding in stepping in and getting failed packs for a great price.

 

[erdurbin]

Out of the packs I opened, only 5 did not have some kind of corrosion inside. There are still plenty good cells, but they are stained brown. Looks like rust between the cells, but may be something else. So you are probably right, it is more expensive to mess with taking these apart only to find some "rusty" cells that may work, but look bad. The public would never see these, but I am sure it would not be accepted in the manufacturing process. Just a thought...

 

[maytag]

after I got a refund, I was browsing the forum and noticed where some others were getting used tool packs from service centers. It inspired me to try it out. I hit the jackpot and got 45 of the 28volt li-ion (LiMn) Milwaukee packs for free.

So what line did you tell the service center to convince them to let you have them for free. Just curious cause I'd like to build an extended pack and might give this approach a go.

 

[mvadventure]

Not a sound from the folks in charge but last Friday he said to wait ten (10) more days and that is only seven days ago. It's good he's had a cancellation
though and had to make a refund.

My season lasts 12 months but I usually take at least a month off in the fall and go north where it's cooler and the deer flies have quit the ICW, I don't want the batteries coming while I'm gone off on the boat so in about two more weeks, three at the most, I'll have to cancel too.

IMHO the manufacturers don't want the battery packs back as they have no crew to disassemble and re manufacture, that's all done in China. My concern there is that there are so many failures. Overall, in the thousands they sell that's probably not too bad but one should be too many.

I'm exhausted, a bad day on the golf course /c with a poor nights sleep but either this evening or in the AM I'll post a special pic for xyster, one he'll be sure to enjoy.

Mike

 

[erdurbin]

So what line did you tell the service center to convince them to let you have them for free. Just curious cause I'd like to build an extended pack and might give this approach a go.

To be honest. I told them that I wanted to take them apart get the good cells out. They asked if I would be rebuilding them and I told them no. Now that I have so many, it is not totally out of the question. Plus, he said he did not care if that is what I was doing, he was glad to get them out of his shop. I called batteries plus and they take single cell lithium for recycling. I am just throwing the housing away. I have not decided what to do with the BMS yet.

 

[OneEye]

There should be battery dropoffs at Lowes and Home Depot also. I may be mistaken, but I think the manufacturers pay into a recycling fund based on how many batteries they produce, in which case the dead cell recycling costs have already been paid for, you just are diverting the good ones for a few more years.

 

[mvadventure]

OK, Aten Energy and Zane have had their last ten days delay so I emailed them for an update and received this:
Michael:

We will ship out to you in within 10 days.
I will call & email you the tracking# which will
be DHL Air.

Thank you again for patience, you will be pleased!

Regards,

Zane Tatum

Today we are a little over seven weeks from initial order (8/8/07) which was promised four to six week delivery. I have received no other communication from Aten Energy to discover any reasons for the delay.

As mentioned before if my brides health holds out we're going on a month long boat trip at the end of the month. No battery delivery by then and I'll cancel the order.

Mike

 

[SciPug]

I called Zane 4 weeks ago and placed an order over the phone. He said to email the exact details to him and he would reply with an order number.

I have sent him 3 emails and he hasn't responded at all.

I told him I needed the bat ASAP, he said no problem. But they haven't taken my credit card info even, so I'm guessing they never placed the order.

I don't think they have their act together yet.

In the mean time, my used Townie that I bought to electrify is getting plenty of miles with just my feet.

 

[chicbicyclist]

Jeanne told me that Zane is in China for the next two weeks.