Using RC motors on E-bikes [Archive]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Miles said:
I don't think it makes sense to gear Matt's motor down even more and put it through a relatively delicate pedal drive system, safe. Also, the Cyclone freewheeling system is a POS.

I agree. Non industry standard chainrings is a royal PITA as well. I know of a few people now who have either destroyed their Cyclone front freewheel or simply couldn't use it because the chain ring completley stuffed their gear ratios.

Safe: My average cadence is around 95 and I am by no means an athlete. It may be unwise to assume anything is normal about the bikes that folk here ride, especially those of us that ride recumbents. I get my candence up because I run 140mm cranks. Keep the RPM up and reduce the angular range and loads on the knee's. Plays hell with the Cyclone's gearing though, my efficent cadence is on the wrong side of the torque curve. Great for efficency, but lousy for getting decent power assist from the motor.

Hack solution ? wouldn't that be along the same vein as adding more circuitry to control stator current as a function of RPM ? Why not just monitor your current draw and control it yourself. Because you want your motor to run at it's peak, sustainable power. Matt seems to aiming for the same goal, philosophically. Use the right size motor for his mission such that the motor spends most of it's running time running efficently. Maybe his requirements also require periods of very high power output such that a different motor is much better suited to that phase of the mission.

It is amazing watching the ideas evolve on this forum and I hope to see some of them out in commercial mainstream ome day.

Safe, It is great that you have found a pet solution to champion, but maybe other people's requirements are different to your own. There is plenty of room for different elegant solutions. Nothing personal, but sometimes you remind me of the various groups of nice people who feel the need to wake me up on Sunday mornings....
 
Miles said:
I don't think it makes sense to gear Matt's motor down even more and put it through a relatively delicate pedal drive system.
I've been running 1400 watts through a plain vanilla derailler and rear freewheel cluster for thousands of miles.

The "golden rule" is that you need double the motor power in a fixed gear bike to equal the net effect of multispeed gearing. This I studied and I could go back through all the graphs and logic (and bore everyone again in proving it) but just for the sake of simplicity let's say I'm right on this one. If it's true that you can run with less power to achieve the same effect why not use a smaller RC motor that puts out closer to 1400 watts (like mine) and then use the gears. I know that 1400 watts is gentle enough for a typical bike to handle... when you get up to twice that (2800 watts) then I can see the argument for things breaking. And let's remember the legal issue too... 750 watts is still the law, so these 5 hp bikes are so illegal that they will never see the light of day as far as a real retail product.

But can you see my point here?

It's kind of weird for someone to have the super lightweight "finesse" solution of the RC motor and not go that extra step to blend it into their (existing) multiple speed transmission. It seems such a "no brainer" to make that next step. (and ACL beyond that)

Maybe someone else's "blind spot" might be my own advantage. :p

The motor was the part that I left as a "black box" in my initial thinking because it was the least important to me in my designs. The RC motor simply "completes" the circle, but if others don't see it that's fine. :)
 
Well, it depends for whom you are designing the product. If you put your motor through a multispeed system (as in more than 3 gears), and assuming the system is up to it, then the gears have to be changed at the right time or there's no performance benefit. That's fine for someone who's obsessed with the minutiae of it all but you're expecting too much of the average punter, methinks. You could have automatic gear change, I guess... Otherwise, a separate 2 or 3 speed system for the motor seems a better compromise, to me. A multispeed system might make more sense where the motor output was controlled by a pedal sensor but I don't think that's your kind of thing...
 
Hmm, quite alot being said here.

As I said in my previous post, my large motor and beefy drive system negates the benefit of merely lowering my ratio for better efficiency. I do not need gears for better accelleration. I already have PLENTY of accelleration. I even have good efficiency (17wh per mile at 20mph if I am careful). Heck, I could just double my AH of my pack and have 40 miles on a charge without worrying about efficiency at all. The only reason I would add the second motor is to run a far less drag reduction system (2mm or 3mm pitch belt single stage reduction) to achieve very good efficiency (maybe 12 or 13wh per mile) and still have my high power system on tap for high speed or high power use.

Safe, you mentioned having a system that maxes out at 20mph for good efficiency. Didn't you read my post? I said I would have the smaller motor geared for about 18mph max speed for cruising. Maybe that slipped your notice.

Also Safe, please don't be offended by this statement, but, what are you talking about "Hack"? I have never touted myself here. I am still very much the newcomer and not as knowledgeable in typical E-bike equipment. However, I have to speak up here and say I do not appreciate that comment. I have defended you on this forum in the face of others hammering on you. I have subscribed to your build threads because I like your projects and I have nothing personal against you. However, you need to relax on the harshness of your tone. Just because everyone does not subscribe to every single facet of your perspective does not give you the right to be so rude.

I do not need to be pumped full of sunshine. However, I also do not need trash talk either.

If you find a specific problem with a dual motor system, by all means illustrate your concerns. However, do not just shoot off your mouth without any specific technical information to back it up.

Matt

Sorry for all the posting, Guys. This is not my thread. I am not trying to hijack it. It just happens to be one of only a few threads I have anything worthwhile to contribute to. :wink:
 
its all good, but why will the motor be less efficient at a lower power output? just for the fact that the friction losses in the gearing system will be a larger fraction of the total power put out by the motor?
 
dirty_d said:
its all good, but why will the motor be less efficient at a lower power output? just for the fact that the friction losses in the gearing system will be a larger fraction of the total power put out by the motor?

Also no load current is 3.7 amps
 
recumpence said:
However, I have to speak up here and say I do not appreciate that comment.
:arrow: I'm sorry... a poorly chosen word to use.

The idea of using two small motors would work, but I'm just having a hard time penetrating WHY you are so resistant to the idea of running power through the gear system that already exists on your bike. It just is hard for me to understand that's all.

My "guess" is that the power you have achieved with the RC motor is simply so enormous (having to invent a slipper clutch just to handle it) that you're just avoiding the idea because that's not something you want to return to just yet.

I've been developing from the opposite direction using an extremely small amount of power at first... I literally was running my bike as a stock 750 watt machine in the beginning (peak about 1000 watts) and that was with 86 lbs of lead to pull. So my experience with gears comes from a long time testing the idea. As the power has gone up (1400 watts) the need for gears goes down. These days I'm using first, second and third gear most of the time and fourth, fifth and sixth are strictly for downhills... and I really can't even pull my sixth gear fully because the aerodynamics holds me back.

All I'm saying is that you should CONSIDER the idea of developing along two separate design paths. One path would be to seek some insane power levels out of an RC motor to be run as a one speed (directly confronting the "Big Iron" based on raw power alone) and the other path would be to build a bike with an RC motor that only puts out 750 watts, but does so while integrating into the existing derailler system. 750 watts is really nothing to a standard bicycle drivetrain.

The area you might be able to make money with (the product that you could actually get rich making) would be to build the perfect RC motor integration system. Seriously, if you do that you could revolutionize this industry.

As I've said elsewhere... for people like downhill mountain bikers that need to survive 25 foot drop offs without breaking parts this type of motor system could allow serious riders to take off roading seriously. Right now you've got people using mountain bikes on the street only, which is no great accomplishment. The hub motors weight is not allowing all the things that people want to do with "sports" oriented bikes. (imagine electric bike "trick riding"... aerials and stuff like that.. hub motors would never work for that)

I understand your attraction to the raw power... but just think about it... 5 hp motors will never be legal and you'll never be able to make a dime doing that sort of thing. (well I suppose there are always specialty markets)


The fact of the matter is that if there was an affordable 750 watt RC motor system that could be simply bolted onto a bike and integrated into the drivetrain I'd be interested in buying it. The Cyclone approach uses a funky motor location idea and their power ratings aren't great, but in spite of that I had even considered them once. There are not many good options out there right now.
 
They already invented it Safe.

It's called the Optibike. Drives through gears just like you say.

I just wish I could afford one.........
 
Oh, and the Elation system is close to what you describe, abet the largest he is going for is 500w (way over the Aussie limit already).

http://www.elationebikes.com.au/videos_and_pictures.htm

The disadvantages of a common through gears system, as I see it, are:

- Need to back of power while changing gears - hub motor you just keep on powering on

- Reliability. If you break a drivetrain component you're stuck. With a hubmotor you can power home, if the motor breaks you can pedal = redundant drive systems.

I'll hopefully be having a go of a 200w Elation system today, or maybe next week - a guy at work has one and is bringing it in one day soon..
 
Mark_A_W said:
It's called the Optibike. Drives through gears just like you say.
From Optibike:

"Hub motors are designed for people who prefer value over performance. A hub motor runs at a fixed gear ratio and is unsuitable for climbing hills or for heavy riders. The Optibike’s patented Motorized Bottom Bracket (MBB) drives through the 9 speed derailleur gear system so you can blast up the steepest hills you can find without sacrificing efficiency. Using a hub motor, you are fixed at a single gear ratio- imagine driving your car in only one gear: The transmission would be cheaper, but your performance would be uh…interesting."

"The Optibike is the most efficient electric bike produced- over 75% of the battery power is transferred to the wheel. Many other electric bikes are around 30% efficient. So while the Optibike has 850 watts of power, the other bikes actually have far less."


OB1frontpage.jpg


Awesome bike... has anyone seen what they are doing as far as the transmission internals? Any links to actual photos?

:arrow: This is definitely the direction to go in... :)

(I didn't know they were doing this... somehow I knew about the batteries inside the frame, but didn't know about the motor)


The thought of doing a backflip on this bike is not that far fetched... this is near the ideal of perfection.
 
From the patent:

The gears of modern bicycle allow the rider to exercise the muscle in the aerobic range to allow continuous long distance riding. The gears are utilized to keep the rider's pedal speed at a high rotating speed (usually between about 60 to 100 rpm). At higher pedaling speeds, the force output for muscle contraction is low so that the muscle is able to stay in the aerobic region.

The original bicycle used a single fixed gear ratio (similar to most electric bicycles) and was severely limited in its ability to negotiate steep terrain. The number of gears on a bicycle has evolved so that the present mountain bike has up to 27 gears to allow for riding on a variety of terrains.

Similar to the human muscle, the modern battery has an efficient and an inefficient region. The battery delivers current to the motor, which produces torque in the motor. The motor torque increases linearly with motor current. High currents are inefficient.

At high current discharge rates, the battery experiences problems similar to lactic acid buildup in the human muscle. More specifically, in the battery, hydrogen gas is formed on the charge plate. Hydrogen gas acts as a barrier to the transfer of electrons. As the high current discharge continues, the hydrogen continues to build on the plates until the battery is unable to deliver current.

Another important issue to consider at high current discharge rate is that the run time of the battery is reduced exponentially with linear increases in motor current. Further, motor thermal losses are experienced which increase with the square of the motor current. Hence, increased motor current wastes available energy two non-linear ways, i.e., battery losses and motor resistance losses.

As one example, a motor mounted directly to the rear wheel on the bicycle has only a fixed gear ratio. Hence, to obtain a four times increase in torque, the motor current must be increased by four times. However, the four times increase in the motor current increases motor resistive losses by 16 times and thus results in a significant loss in battery run time and reduction in motor efficiency.

The available power from the battery is an exponential function of the rate of current use. Hence, as current discharge increases, the available energy from the battery decreases exponentially. Hence, as more torque is required to move the bicycle (such as during hill climbing or acceleration), more current will be required, thereby exponentially decreasing the available power from the battery.

...

In yet another aspect, the gear system comprises a set of planetary gears to rotate the output driver at a rate of rotation that is less than the motor. Preferably, the gears are configured so that the output speed of the motor is matched to the range of the human leg. For example, the planetary gears are preferably configured so that when the rate of rotation of the motor is in the rate from about 1,800 rpm to about 3,600 rpm, the rate of rotation of the output driver is in the range from about 60 rpm to about 120 rpm. In a specific aspect, the motor speed is approximately 2400 rpm and is employed to turn the crank arms at a rate of about 75 rpm. Such a gear reduction facilitates use of either the motor or pedal power to drive the bicycle. The motor is preferably operated at or near its maximum output level to maximize the efficiency of the motor and minimize current use, thereby prolonging the life of the battery. Operating the motor at or near its maximum output level is also advantageous in that the motor is able to generate more power at higher rates of rotation.

In still yet another aspect, the motor comprises a brushless DC motor. Such a motor is preferable because it provides superior cooling and a high power output.


The engineers on this project seem to have gotten everything right... very good job... but the prices are insane... many thousands of dollars for an ebike? :?

But I guess "quality" always has a premium price.
 
Some more intersting stuff:

The bicycles of the invention may optionally include a smart controller to monitor motor current and limit the motor output to provide different levels of efficiency and acceleration in response to rider input. The bicycles may also include a motor controller that allows for high acceleration torque, e.g., up to about 10 times the normal riding torque. Excessive heat generation in the motor may be limited by the smart controller that tapers off the current during a short programmed time. A thermal sensor may also be mounted in the motor so that the smart controller may monitor the temperature of the motor and adjust the maximum current to prevent overheating of the motor.

The bicycles of the invention may also employ the use of a torque sensor so that motor torque can be a multiple of the rider torque as required by many national laws governing electric bicycles. Further, the motor controller may be programmed so that the motor does not begin turning until the rider begins turning the pedals at a certain rate of revolution. In this way, the efficiency of the battery may be improved since human power is required to initially accelerate the bicycle.

In still another feature, the bicycles of the invention may be configured to have the motor voltage modulated with a pulse width modulation. In this way, the motor maximum voltage is kept below the minimum battery voltage so that the top speed of the bicycle does not decrease as battery voltage decreases. Preferably, this will be about 20% of the maximum battery voltage.


...so they seem to be talking about the ability to use something like ACL or a standard controller (big torque) configuration. In addition they have other options to satisfy local regulations. Sounds like a programmable controller... possibly with a burned in ROM chip in some cases.

They have really covered all the bases.

:arrow: Excellent!

(that last idea can be achieved by simply placing a resistor into the throttle circuit... I got that by accident with by ACL circuit, that's why I needed to add an extra battery to compensate)
 
Well, I'm not sure they implemented all that.

But yes, the Optibike only has two flaws as far as I can see;

1. You have to back off the throttle when you change gears, a nice feature of hub motors is you can just keep going full power while you mess with the gears, or when the chain comes off.

2. It's just too expensive for me (and not available here, but that's a moot point). It's the price of a decent second hand car...ouch.
 
Technically it's a work of art... (even if it's too expensive right now)

Optibike Motor Diagram.gif

Optibike Motor Cutaway.gif
However, I still think that a smaller RC motor could cut about 5 lbs off this design. I don't think this is the only way that it can be done, but they have definitely set the bar very high to have to clear. Very impressive... but there's room to do it a different way. The fact that they are peaking at only 3600 rpms means that there is a lot of room to drop the motor weight. (weight and rpm are related in that low rpms means high motor weight for the same power output)

The use of planetary gears is a very good choice... hard to do, but the best way to go...
 
id like to see someone machine up a little 3 speed transmission similar to whats on dirt bike engine, that would be pretty sweet. it would get the output rpms of the high rpm rc motors down to where you can use sensible sized chain sprockets to the wheel.
 
dirty_d said:
id like to see someone machine up a little 3 speed transmission similar to whats on dirt bike engine, that would be pretty sweet. it would get the output rpms of the high rpm rc motors down to where you can use sensible sized chain sprockets to the wheel.
Regular deraillers can handle a lot more stress than people give them credit. They have to build all the regular bike drivetrain parts to withstand the peak load that is anticipated. For professional athletes that means up to 1000 watts AVERAGE for short bursts and more like 2000 watts equivalent as far as peak torque. Obviously gearing is critical because the lower your gear ratio the higher the torque and the greater worry about problems.

I've found that a standard derailler (cheapo Toys R Us special) can handle the load of 1400 watts essentially forever. I did early on switch to a Shimano freewheel which has been flawless. The original freewheel broke after I threw a chain and it got jammed between the freewheel and frame, so not directly related to motor power.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it".

...if the standard derailler is "good enough" to be your multiple gear transmission system why not use it?

I'm trying out the 8-speed Sturmey Archer internally geared hub just to see how that works. But my main reasons for buying it was that the gear ratio spread from low to high is 305% compared to about 200% for a typical freewheel. (14-28) My Project #003 will use a derailler and a 7-Speed cassette type rear hub, something like 14-30 or somewhere in that neighborhood.
 
.if the standard derailler is "good enough" to be your multiple gear transmission system why not use it?

In my opinion, the standard derailer is not "good enough" to be the "perfect e-bike". I have a cyclone kit and you are right that it's a kind of silly design - the reason it's a kind of silly design is that, with the motor, you're gearing way down (~9 to 1 gear reduction) and then gearing back up (high speed gear is about a 4 to 1 gear-up.. about 48/12).

High powered e-bikes only need a few gears. The solutions that would avoid "gear-down to gear up" could be:

1) motor and pedals run two chains to rear wheel, rear cassette moves left-right to select gears for pedal-chain and motor-chain at the same time. Width of a 7 speed cassette allows three gears for each, plus some extra space. 9-10 speed cassette would allow four, maybe five gears each. (big gears for the reduction of the motor, small ones for the gear-increase needed for pedals). Each chain has a chain tensioner.

2) motor and pedals run two chains to rear wheel, a custom made double-derailer) (one parallelogram linkage, two different 2-cog chain tensioner/guide assemblies) shifts both chains left-right at the same time, three to five gears available for each chain.

3) motor and pedals run two chains to just two cogs on the rear wheel - a huge cog for the motor and a little one for pedals. They both drive the input shaft to the rear hub which has internal gears... a standard 3-speed bicycle transmission, a NuVinci continuously-variable setup, or one of the standard internally geared bicycle hubs with 4 to 14 speeds. (Okay, an expensive 14 speed hub is WAY overkill for most e-bikes since they DONT NEED MANY SPEEDS)
 
cerewa said:
3) motor and pedals run two chains to just two cogs on the rear wheel - a huge cog for the motor and a little one for pedals. They both drive the input shaft to the rear hub which has internal gears... a standard 3-speed bicycle transmission, a NuVinci continuously-variable setup, or one of the standard internally geared bicycle hubs with 4 to 14 speeds. (Okay, an expensive 14 speed hub is WAY overkill for most e-bikes since they DONT NEED MANY SPEEDS)

Meet the Charger Bicycle. Replace the lead batteries with something more modern, change the controller to one with a throttle, and give it a decent paint job.

Marty
 
to get a brushless motor to behave as though it is being driven through a multispeed gear system, of course, all you have to do is change the voltage. And have a controller that can handle the differing voltages.
1) Use a DC-DC voltage-reduction converter and have a switch that either runs the power through it (low voltage) or bypasses it (high voltage)
2) Use two batteries and use switches to run them as series or parallel depending on whether you want speed torque, respectively. example: 24v10ah pack + 24v10 pack ... use a 4 pole 3 throw switch to change between 24V20ah configuration and 48V10ah configuration
3) run a "voltage booster" battery, possibly with smaller amp hour capacity than your main pack, and use it for extra voltage when going fast, and bypass it when you don't need the extra voltage / speed. example: 24v20ah main pack, 12v15ah "booster" pack, able to be switched between 36V (with booster pack) and 24V (without)

One of the advantages of using either gears OR electrical switching to change your motor's torque and top-speed is that you may be able to get the kind of torque and top speed you want with a battery that has low wattage (or low "c") rating.
 
cerewa said:
One of the advantages of using either gears OR electrical switching to change your motor's torque and top-speed is that you may be able to get the kind of torque and top speed you want with a battery that has low wattage (or low "c") rating.
Gears seem far better suited for that than electrical switching does though... I don't see why it is so hard to run a motor through the standard drive train, all it should take, is a jackshaft, that has room for three gears. Two free wheels (one for the motor, one for the front chainring) and a regular gear that would go to the back wheel. You would mount it part way back from pedals, probably in-line with the back freewheel. The motor could go in the triangle, and have a chain going to one of the freewheels on the jackshaft, and the front chainring's chain could go to the other. This will still give you full range of gears for pedaling, and you will still have the 7-9 gears on the freewheel for the motor (which is more than enough).
 
changing voltage isn't at all comparable to changing gears, changing voltage only changes the power output, the rpm/torque ratio is the same, gears keeps the power output the same but changes the rpm/torque ratio.
 
dirty_d said:
changing voltage isn't at all comparable to changing gears, changing voltage only changes the power output, the rpm/torque ratio is the same, gears keeps the power output the same but changes the rpm/torque ratio.
Yes, all it would do is let you go faster, and drain your batteries quicker, or when you are accelerating, to be able to spread the amp draw out over more batteries to get more power out of them. While that may be useful for someone with SLA, with any newer battery type, it is un-necessary.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top