Vectrix 2007 Lithium Batteries State of Charge

[tk3000]

Hello Folks,

Recently, I acquired a used 2007 vectrix VX-1 max scooter off ebay. The bike came with 40ah lithium ion cells, and it seems that the conversion kit (with the li-ion cells) were bought directly from vectrix itself back in 2010.

At first the batteries were completely discharged: each cells had about .3 volts.(charged cell would have 3.2 or 3.3V). And since the 120V DC industrial charger that came with the bike would not recognize the deeply discharge battery bank, I charged different sections of the battery bank at a time with a 80V DC-DC voltage booster connected to my solar battery bank (so not conversion/rectification from AC-DC required). It comes to a point whereby the vectrix lithium ion batteries reached 124V and even though the bike boots up without any errors there is still no "GO" on the screen and it listed its range as being 0 miles, and the wheels do not spin at all. So, I hooked up the industrial charger it pumps about 9amps into the vectrix batteries, and at the same time is shows a steady red led indicating that the batteries have less than 80% of it is capacity. My question then is: for lithium ion batteries isn't the voltage a good indication of the state of charge?

thks

 

[amberwolf]

Maybe. Depends on the kind If they are LiFePO4 then 3.3v is anywhere in the main part of the SOC curve. You'd need to balance them individually at 3.65v/cell (typically) to ensure they are all actually chagred.

If they are any other common type of LI cell then 3.3v is nearly dead, and 4.1-4.2v is fully charged. (some 4.3, but less common).

Also, if the batteries got down that low per cell they are toast, damaged and potentially a fire hazard, for any kind o fLithium batteries. If the BMS is smart enough to know they got that low it might be locking the bike out from operating, as it probably did from charging.

If you trickle charged them up as indifidual cells, they might operate bu they wont' work like they used to, and may not be able to supply enough current without voltage sag below LVC.

 

[heathyoung]

They dead Jim. You could recover the NiMh cells but the Lithium ones are likely toast. Since they may not have been reversed you may get back some life, but expect high internal resistance and low capacity. I've revived 40AH Thundersky cells that have been treated like this - but only got back 10AH and high IR.

If you manage to recharge them, the sag at the current levels these bikes pull on acceleration (150A or so) will pull back your power so much it makes the bike rather speed limited - and the internal resistance will also severely impact your range too (remember that the cell acts like an inline resistor - that heats the cell itself).

The problem is that the motor controller board has a constant drain (7ma or so). They fixed it on a later revision of the MC but most of them are the old boards.

Save up for some Nissan Leaf cells - they are ideal for retrofitting to a vectrix.

 

[tk3000]

Maybe. Depends on the kind If they are LiFePO4 then 3.3v is anywhere in the main part of the SOC curve. You'd need to balance them individually at 3.65v/cell (typically) to ensure they are all actually chagred.

If they are any other common type of LI cell then 3.3v is nearly dead, and 4.1-4.2v is fully charged. (some 4.3, but less common).

Also, if the batteries got down that low per cell they are toast, damaged and potentially a fire hazard, for any kind o fLithium batteries. If the BMS is smart enough to know they got that low it might be locking the bike out from operating, as it probably did from charging.

If you trickle charged them up as indifidual cells, they might operate bu they wont' work like they used to, and may not be able to supply enough current without voltage sag below LVC.

They are indeed LiFePO4 cells with a nominal voltage per cell of 3.2V. I did charge some of them individually, and obtained something near 3.6V on these ones but then most of them I charged as groups of 10 or more and got the equivalent combined voltage of the group with single cells fully charged (voltage wise). The battery cells have a model name: LFP040AHA.

By "toast" you mean that the batteries and the whole bank is wasted? I would like to at least run the bike to make sure the motor and other parts are ok and test it (even though they may not be worth to actually ride the bike in normal circumstances).

I looked inside the front fairing of the bike and it still has the charge that came with the bike originally, but it seems that it is disconnected and an elcon 120V DC charge is inside the helmet compartment and is being used. Does the original conventional batteries have a bms too, or only temp sensors? Temp sensors seems to be less relevant for the the lithium counterparts.

thanks for the input!

tk3000

 

[tk3000]

They dead Jim. You could recover the NiMh cells but the Lithium ones are likely toast. Since they may not have been reversed you may get back some life, but expect high internal resistance and low capacity. I've revived 40AH Thundersky cells that have been treated like this - only got back 10AH and high IR.
but
If you manage to recharge them, the sag at the current levels these bikes pull on acceleration (150A or so) will pull back your power so much it makes the bike rather speed limited - and the internal resistance will also severely impact your range too (remember that the cell acts like an inline resistor - that heats the cell itself).

The problem is that the motor controller board has a constant drain (7ma or so). They fixed it on a later revision of the MC but most of them are the old boards.

Save up for some Nissan Leaf cells - they are ideal for retrofitting to a vectrix.

So, with the old firmware if the bike seats in storage for too long the lithium batteries would be wasted... That is a bad prospect really. How about source these batteries directly from China (alibaba)? Don't know how easy and cheap to get nissan ones, and on the plus side the ones from China are plug and play.

Assuming these lithium batteries are depleted of its former self, couldn't they be used to at least test the bike to make sure it is in working order?

thanks!

 

[amberwolf]

Sorry I couldn't help.

They are indeed LiFePO4 cells with a nominal voltage per cell of 3.2V. I did charge some of them individually, and obtained something near 3.6V on these ones but then most of them I charged as groups of 10 or more and got the equivalent combined voltage of the group with single cells fully charged (voltage wise). The battery cells have a model name: LFP040AHA.

You should go thru every cell and individually verify they are at the correct voltage to be completely full.


If you charged them in bulk (in series groups) from such a low voltage, especially at higher currents, some could be overcharged, some undercharged, some maybe not even charged at all, depending on how each one has degraded inside.


I would also only store this vehicle outside, away from anything you care about, until the batteries are removed from it, because they are a fire risk (what level of risk depends on what happened to them both during discharge and during recharge, and the currents they have seen in their present state both for charge and discharge).


I would not charge them at any high currents (above an amp or two) until you know they are "ok". If they have too high a resistance internally, they could heat up enough to cause a fire, if they are charged at too high a current.

The same is true of discharging them.


So, the first test I would do is to verify each cell individually is fully charged.

Any that are not, I would individually charge to full, at low current.

Next I would test that when you apply a load to them (of at least a few amps) that they dont sag too much or heat up. You may have to apply the load to the whole pack, for instance by setting the driven wheel off the ground, then applying throttle. But you will still need to measure the voltages on each individual cell of the pack while the load is applied.

This will also tell you which cells are worse off than others.

By "toast" you mean that the batteries and the whole bank is wasted?

Yes, unfortunately..

The BMS is probably still usable for new cells, though I wouldn't trust it if it allowed the system to keep draining the cells to essentially zero, after they had already reached LVC. It should have cut off the system from the battery completely when the cells reached their low voltage cutoff, and if it didnt' either it isnt' designed to do it (which endangers the cells cuz you can run them down to destruction just during a ride, or letting it sit too long, as has apparently happened already), or it is defective and didn't do the job it was designed to do.

They might still be usable for low-load applications, but they may never be able to run the bike under any real load, or even if they do, they won't have the capacity they did, and they will heat up more than they should (potentially dangerously so).

You may be able to use them for testing the rest of the bike for basic functionality, but I doubt they'll be much use to ride the bike in a normal way.



You could get lucky, and they may work perfectly for what you want them to do...but that would be unusual, and unexpected.

I looked inside the front fairing of the bike and it still has the charge that came with the bike originally, but it seems that it is disconnected and an elcon 120V DC charge is inside the helmet compartment and is being used. Does the original conventional batteries have a bms too, or only temp sensors?

I don't know if the original had a BMS per-cell, or just for multi-cell sticks. You can read about all that in the various Vectrix threads here on ES, some of which are here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=vectrix&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

and probably over on the V is for Voltage forums, maybe also on DIY Electric Car forums.

The original charger is only for NiMH; it is not the right kind to use with Lithium, so that is why it is disconnected.

 

[mistercrash]

I'm no expert on anything but even I would not mess around with Li-Ion cells that are toast. You have a few options to get the Vectrix going again but it will cost money. Here is one option that is said to be plug & play.

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/in...k-136v-60ah-18-nissan-leaf-modules&Itemid=605

 

[heathyoung]

Just to clarify - it isn't a firmware issue with the constant discharge - its a hardware issue - the DC-DC converter has a constant drain that emptied the batteries. Vectrix actually retrofitted a board that shuts down the DC converter when the bike is parked (ie. stand down and ignition off).

The LFP040AHA cells (Thundersky) are NOT OEM cells either. This sounds like a conversion, I would expect 42 or 44 cells. From personal experience you are wasting your time trying to resurrect thundersky cells.

The old yellow ones are pretty ordinary in terms of internal resistance. As they get older, they get worse.

Best option (you keep your BMS) would be to use the grey CALB cells - much lower internal resistance.

 

[tk3000]

They are indeed LiFePO4 cells with a nominal voltage per cell of 3.2V. I did charge some of them individually, and obtained something near 3.6V on these ones but then most of them I charged as groups of 10 or more and got the equivalent combined voltage of the group with single cells fully charged (voltage wise). The battery cells have a model name: LFP040AHA.

You should go thru every cell and individually verify they are at the correct voltage to be completely full.


If you charged them in bulk (in series groups) from such a low voltage, especially at higher currents, some could be overcharged, some undercharged, some maybe not even charged at all, depending on how each one has degraded inside.


I would also only store this vehicle outside, away from anything you care about, until the batteries are removed from it, because they are a fire risk (what level of risk depends on what happened to them both during discharge and during recharge, and the currents they have seen in their present state both for charge and discharge).


I would not charge them at any high currents (above an amp or two) until you know they are "ok". If they have too high a resistance internally, they could heat up enough to cause a fire, if they are charged at too high a current.

The same is true of discharging them.


So, the first test I would do is to verify each cell individually is fully charged.

Any that are not, I would individually charge to full, at low current.

Next I would test that when you apply a load to them (of at least a few amps) that they dont sag too much or heat up. You may have to apply the load to the whole pack, for instance by setting the driven wheel off the ground, then applying throttle. But you will still need to measure the voltages on each individual cell of the pack while the load is applied.

This will also tell you which cells are worse off than others.

By "toast" you mean that the batteries and the whole bank is wasted?

Yes, unfortunately..

The BMS is probably still usable for new cells, though I wouldn't trust it if it allowed the system to keep draining the cells to essentially zero, after they had already reached LVC. It should have cut off the system from the battery completely when the cells reached their low voltage cutoff, and if it didnt' either it isnt' designed to do it (which endangers the cells cuz you can run them down to destruction just during a ride, or letting it sit too long, as has apparently happened already), or it is defective and didn't do the job it was designed to do.

They might still be usable for low-load applications, but they may never be able to run the bike under any real load, or even if they do, they won't have the capacity they did, and they will heat up more than they should (potentially dangerously so).

You may be able to use them for testing the rest of the bike for basic functionality, but I doubt they'll be much use to ride the bike in a normal way.



You could get lucky, and they may work perfectly for what you want them to do...but that would be unusual, and unexpected.

I looked inside the front fairing of the bike and it still has the charge that came with the bike originally, but it seems that it is disconnected and an elcon 120V DC charge is inside the helmet compartment and is being used. Does the original conventional batteries have a bms too, or only temp sensors?

I don't know if the original had a BMS per-cell, or just for multi-cell sticks. You can read about all that in the various Vectrix threads here on ES, some of which are here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=vectrix&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

and probably over on the V is for Voltage forums, maybe also on DIY Electric Car forums.


The original charger is only for NiMH; it is not the right kind to use with Lithium, so that is why it is disconnected.

Sorry for the delay in my follow up, some bad life events... Well, I checked out each cell while still connected to each other and got about the same voltage 3.3V. But I am not able to apply a load since there is "GO" on the display and the bike lists the status of the battery as having no bars and 0 miles of range, although the bikes main display shows the battery health status as full (which would health, but that probably is misleading since don't know how accurate it is and it was meant to be used with the original batteries)

In terms of the BMS, it seems that there are the individual small circuit board mounted on each battery and then there is another board inside the the seat compartment. But when I got the bike the board inside the compartment (I assume the controller board) was not connected to power (basically it needs it is own 12V source of power, which it now has). Whenever I disconnect the boards wires from the batteries the main board's buzzer sounds off. Each individual board on each battery has a green light on, and the main board inside the seat compartment has a red led light on (maybe that is bad sign).

Hmmm... Looks like these battery are a fire hazardous, is there any way to test their health or lack thereof.

Thanks for you insights!

 

[tk3000]

I'm no expert on anything but even I would not mess around with Li-Ion cells that are toast. You have a few options to get the Vectrix going again but it will cost money. Here is one option that is said to be plug & play.

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/in...k-136v-60ah-18-nissan-leaf-modules&Itemid=605

I wish there was a way to revitalize these batteries since they are rather expensive... Thanks for the link

 

[tk3000]

Just to clarify - it isn't a firmware issue with the constant discharge - its a hardware issue - the DC-DC converter has a constant drain that emptied the batteries. Vectrix actually retrofitted a board that shuts down the DC converter when the bike is parked (ie. stand down and ignition off).

The LFP040AHA cells (Thundersky) are NOT OEM cells either. This sounds like a conversion, I would expect 42 or 44 cells. From personal experience you are wasting your time trying to resurrect thundersky cells.

The old yellow ones are pretty ordinary in terms of internal resistance. As they get older, they get worse.

Best option (you keep your BMS) would be to use the grey CALB cells - much lower internal resistance.

Good to know about the DC-DC converter issue, so some sort of contact switch would simply turn off the dc-dc converter.

It probably was a conversion, but I saw the vectrix logo on some of them so I assumed that it was OEM.

As these the CALB cells you mentioned:
http://en.calb.cn/product/show/?id-626

thanks

 

[amberwolf]

Sorry I couldn't help.

In terms of the BMS, it seems that there are the individual small circuit board mounted on each battery and then there is another board inside the the seat compartment. But when I got the bike the board inside the compartment (I assume the controller board) was not connected to power (basically it needs it is own 12V source of power, which it now has). Whenever I disconnect the boards wires from the batteries the main board's buzzer sounds off. Each individual board on each battery has a green light on, and the main board inside the seat compartment has a red led light on (maybe that is bad sign).

You'd have to see wht names/numbers are on those and google them, or post pics up here for us to see if we recognize it, to find a manual for that BMS ot know what lights mean what.

Hmmm... Looks like these battery are a fire hazardous, is there any way to test their health or lack thereof.

I think I already posted the basics of that in what you quoted. :/ Until you're willing and able to do those tests and post the detailed results of them, there aren't any others you should do.

But you already did the main test that shows they are toast, which is to find their voltages at 0.3v/cell. That's dead--you might be able to work some zombie magic to get them to live again, but like zombies they aren't going to be anything like what they were before they died.

Up to you if you wanna keep trying voodoo with the corpses, but I wouldn't want it parked near *my* house. (and I'm a re-user of LOTS of stuff others would never touch!).

 

[tk3000]

Yeah, I guess I was very unlucky with this bike purchase since the cost of the battery bank is so high. I can not even use conventional deep cycle batteries since the cooling apparatus was removed on occasion of doing the mod.

So, eve assuming the battery is worthless and dangerous, the basic test you proposed to give it some sort of charge to test the bike's motor would be to charge it a 1 or 2 amps almost like float charging it. What would be the ideal voltage threshold to charge it: charging a segment of 15 cells at 3.3V each gives a nominal 48V, so could I use a DC-DC booster converter to charge them at 50V and 1.5amps? Or more voltage?

Since the batteries are otherwise unpredictable and dangerous, should I remove them from the bike itself and store them away as if it was nuclear waste? :|

thks!

 

[heathyoung]

Do you have any photos? I'd like to see what BMS it uses, might give you a few clues to what to do. There were a few conversions out there, if they are red boards (like these here) http://ev-power.com.au/webstore/ev-power-bms.html
Then its a good chance its an 'antiscab' conversion (Matt is an Aussie in WA who did possibly the first lithium conversion to a Vectrix).

Also - the V forums are where all the vectrix guys hang out. visforvoltage.org/forums/vectrix

If the battery is over 120V you should be able to get the bike to move (regardless of the fuel gauge setting). When you go through the sequence to get to 'go' you should be able to twist the throttle and the bike should move. How it moves will give you an idea of what you need to do next.

 

[tk3000]

Do you have any photos? I'd like to see what BMS it uses, might give you a few clues to what to do. There were a few conversions out there, if they are red boards (like these here) http://ev-power.com.au/webstore/ev-power-bms.html
Then its a good chance its an 'antiscab' conversion (Matt is an Aussie in WA who did possibly the first lithium conversion to a Vectrix).

Also - the V forums are where all the vectrix guys hang out. visforvoltage.org/forums/vectrix

If the battery is over 120V you should be able to get the bike to move (regardless of the fuel gauge setting). When you go through the sequence to get to 'go' you should be able to twist the throttle and the bike should move. How it moves will give you an idea of what you need to do next.

Sure, I am posting some photos of the bms main module and the layout of the modules of the battery bank (bottom layer).

(main module inside the seat compartment, it is been powered by a small 12V battery)

(bottom larger layer of batteries inside the vectrix)

The battery has about 124V and I am still not able to rev the motor/wheel (vectrix is on jackstands). The vectrix boots up, all ligths turns on and seems to work fine (dashboard indicators, head light, turn signal, etc), there are not error indicators on the dashboard with exception of the fact that it shows 0 miles of range along with not showing the "GO". Also, the vectrix own battery health status shows a fully health battery (granted it is probably wrong), and the alongside battery charging indicator shows zero bars.

I even tried to calibrate the throttle position for no avail (it seems it was in the proper position already).

thks!

 

[heathyoung]

The BMS system you have is from cleanpowerauto LLC - commonly called the 'minibms' - Manual is here - http://cleanpowerauto.com/files/MiniBMS%20V3%20User%20Manual%20-%20Distributed.pdf

OK - that means that there is something missing in your startup sequence. Also - someone may have done something strange with interfacing the BMS to the bike - I would bypass the LVC wires from the BMS head end (refer to manual).

1) Make sure the killswitch is in the correct position
2) Make sure that the kickstand is up (kickstand light will go off)
3) Make sure you grip the left brake, then the right - GO should illuminate.

Make sure the brake switches are both working if one doesn't illuminate the rear brakelight, you have a dud switch. You can bridge across the dead switch wires for testing if need be.

The whole BMS being run from a small 12V battery is dumb. There are other ways to get 12V on these bikes that don't involve caveman mods.

 

[tk3000]

Thanks for your informative response, and sorry for the lack of a follow up for this long time span (life issues).

I will look into the LVM wires thing. But there are only two wires (BMS pins CELL and LOOP) connected to the BMS main module (besides the power and ground wires).

Yeah, this small 12V motorcycle battery only to power the BMS main module seems obtuse, but I don't want to rely on the main battery bank (given that the bike was in storage for a long time [probably with something on drain power ] and the bms also failed to perform due diligence due to the lack of power). This battery was the only one I had hand.

I tried the start up procedure you describe for no avail: no response whatsoever from the elect. engine whenever I turn the throttle grip. And all the brake lights work (the side stand it not down, etc), besides there is not error on the display and dashboard. And battery bank reads 124VDC.

 

[heathyoung]

How far do you get into the start sequence? Do you at least get to 'ready'?

Does the dash do the proper opening ceremony (speedo goes all the way to 120 and back again).

A photo of whats shown on the dash would be great to get an idea of where its at. 124V should be enough voltage to get it to 'go'.

 

[heathyoung]

Its just occurred to me that your problem is most likely throttle calibration (helping someone else with the same symptoms). I can get the same result if my throttle is slightly on when I try to start mine.

Put the ignition on, killswitch on off (ie on X) and put on the left brake only. The speedo should show 40Kph. IF it doesn't, the throttle needs adjustment.



Remove the bar end (they unscrew anti-clockwise like normal) - you will see a white plug, with a blade screw fitting and an allen key screw in there as well. Loosen the allenkey screw and ajust carefully so the speedo shows 40KPH (I put a rubber band on the brake so you don't need 3 hands).

 

[Sunder]

That other person would be me. Heath has been very helpful in providing advice to get this bike on the road.

The symptom prior to the failure to start was that the bike inches forward like an automatic car.

This is the only issue stopping me getting a blue slip and I'm trying to arrange with the mechanic today to fix it onsite and not have to get a white slip and do it again. All depends whether the mechanic has an adverserial attitude or a collaborative one. He seems to be reasonable so far, but nothing committed.

 

[Sunder]

Just a further update on this issue.

I didn't have the right tools to adjust this while at the mechanics, so i used this procedure to start the bike instead:

1. Power on.
2. Kill switch off
3. Roll throttle back until "R" appears
4. Allow throttle to inch forward until "R" disappears.
5. Memorise this position.
6. Stand up
7. Kill switch on
8. Return throttle to position memorised in 5.
9. Left brake
10. Right brake
11. "Go" lights.

Once I got home, I did the proper procedure and realised mine was calibrated to 65km/h. Ouch. On neutral throttle it it was hitting 40km/h and drawing 1kw.

 

[heathyoung]

Now working - yaay! Congrats.

Another V back on the road.

 

[Sunder]

Thanks mate. Have been on a couple short rides so far, and motorcycling is as fun as remember it.

Now I just have to get a feel for the range it has to be able to use it to see clients. My boss wanted me to start visiting clients again. This bike should pay itself off quickly if I can use it for business related trips

Hopefully enough so that I can buy a new battery pack rather than just a booster!

 

[heathyoung]

Thanks mate. Have been on a couple short rides so far, and motorcycling is as fun as remember it.

Now I just have to get a feel for the range it has to be able to use it to see clients. My boss wanted me to start visiting clients again. This bike should pay itself off quickly if I can use it for business related trips

Hopefully enough so that I can buy a new battery pack rather than just a booster!

The pack I wouldn't take below about 22AH. The red LED when it is on constantly means LVC has been hit on at least one cell and to charge NOW. My run into and back from work (32Klms) would use roughly 12-13AH.

 

[Sunder]

Oh okay. Where is this LED? Sorry, haven't had much time to inspect the bike closely, as I only got it back over the weekend, and I'm already interstate.

Are the dash guages vaguely accurate? Or is the best measure the Cycle Analyst?