Vehicle application and build phylosophy

[recumpence]

Hey Guys,

I am curious what methodology each of you have for your bikes as you build them?

Specifically, what I am talking about is----------

Do you make your bike/s more of a bicycle, or more of an EV?

My recumbent started life as a pedal only bike. So, when I added the E-drive, I kept it as useable as a pedal bike as I could. That includes skinny tires and other relatively weak components. My second build (currently underway) is being built up from scratch as an EV first, with pedal capability as well. So, it has wider rims and tires, stronger spokes, relatively tall pedal ratio, PHENOMINAL brakes, etc. This will be almost a light weight E-motorcycle, rather than an E-bike.

I am curious to see what each of you have in mind as you build your bikes. Does "EV" come first or does "Bicycle" come first?

Matt

 

[John in CR]

Definitely EV first with human assist to make it legally a bike here and get exercise as I chose.

John

 

[gogo]

The two main factors I've identified are speed and weight capacity. Each contribute to the stresses the vehicle will bear. I also look at the tried and true vehicles on the road as guidelines for design. For instance, mopeds are a good example for the 30 MPH range.

I figure once you intend to go over 20 MPH in an upright position, the power requirements due to air resistance make pedaling an optional activity. Most ebikes need to be on the beefy end of the spectrum for any speed due to the weights involved.

 

[Toshi]

mine is definitely a bicycle first. it's geared so that i can pedal at a reasonable cadence whether i'm going 5 mph or 30 mph. its components are decent "real bicycle"-level parts as opposed to those that would be found on a wal-mart special. (ie, no chromed steel rims, caliper brakes, quill headsets and stems, hi-tensile steel _anything_, 1-pc cranks, stamped steel chainrings, freewheels.)

the reason why i designed my bike this way are manifold:

1. i park it outside on a bike rack at work basically every day. parking a "motorcycle" there is not kosher.
2. seattle buses have a 55 lb weight limit but otherwise explicitly allow electric bicycles if their wheelbase and tires allow for them to fit in the bike racks -- this mandates a standard configuration with a removable battery mounting solution, basically
3. i like pedaling.
4. the higher-speed e-bikes out there either seem unsafe or overpriced to my eye. if i'm going to go freeway speeds and put my life in the hands of the machine frankly it makes more sense to me to get a properly engineered and tested gasoline-powered vehicle instead of a homebrew machine.

my current machine:

what i'm planning on getting this summer (recall that i don't have a car):

 

[dogman dan]

I think EV. I'd hate to pedal an 80 pound direct drive hub bike very far without power. I am intrigued by the other way, 250 watt gearmotor, 5 pound lipo battery. On a light enough frame, It might pedal about like my current pedal bikes, that weigh either 27 or 32 pounds. 35 pounds of bike that can push you up the hills, that does get interesting.

 

[Zoot Katz]

"My other bike is a bike" reads a weathered sticker on le Béte. The "one less fixed gear" sticker was lost when I refinished the SnapDeck this winter.
"Any Idiot Can Drive" is visible from both sides of the bike. You've gotta have a sharp eye to see the "CARS SUCK!" sticker in plain view.
There's also three plastic mojos. Two of them are whimsical because bicycling is fun. The third is a skull face that serves as a constant reminder of my mortality by warning me to watch out for the boneheads. It's also a warning to others that I can be a bonehead too.

Except for 10 weeks recovering from a fractured tibia/fibula and titanium implant, I've ridden at least one of my bicycles almost every day since ~August 2000. Before that it was motorcycles and bicycles. Sold my last car in 1996.

Bicycling is my preferred mode of urban transportation. To replace the versatility of my station wagon, I bought an Xtracycle in Aug. 2006. It quickly became my favourite bike but started me thinking about electrifying it to increase its versatility. To accomplish that, it had to remain first and foremost a bicycle. Le Béte finally got buzzed Sept. 13th, 2008. That it can go 100km at bicycling speeds up hill, down hill and in traffic retains its bicycle nature.

Pedalling the 120 pounds against gravity, coupled with its high resistance, is a work out but can be done because it's a bicycle. Pedalling on the flats is a breeze once you've got the big mo' rollin'. The magnetic resistance goes away at a given RPM and the 25# hub motor is like a flywheel.

My EV can be ridden like a bicycle because it is a bicycle and that's the way I ride it. Basically, the motor is there to haul batteries and other loads uphill faster and without me going anaerobic.

Man on a bicycle is the most thermo-dynamicaly efficient animal or machine. Man on an electrified bicycle could arguably be more efficient.

Since I usually only ride 100 kilometers in one day once per year, I think I'll do it on le Béte this year. I figure if you can't ride it like a bike, you might as well just leave it parked or pack a really long extension cord. The next one is planned as a light weight urban runabout where ~30 km range is acceptable.

"Freedom", "Fun", "Independence" and "Liberation" are the words most frequently associated with bicycling. An electrified bicycle must not diminish those values in whose name people have sacrificed their lives.

 

[Dee Jay]

For me, it's a bicycle first. It's why I don't like the term "donor" bicycle. It's just a matter of adding more cells for greater distance and strength for me to cross the EV line.

Why bicycle?

Owning a car in Tokyo is expensive because outdoor parking space costs about 300 bucks extra a month for most apartments. Riding the trains is the way of life here, but it's about a dollar just to the next station. So I went on a quest to find a good bicycle. It took me about two years searching the streets for a bicycle that suited me.

In the mean time, my wife and I bought a cheap, unisex, generic bike but that got stolen right outside our front door. It was a decent bike but too generic for me so I wasn't gutted about it.

I wanted some style, but not necessarily fashion.

I wasn't trying to fit in and jump on that "fixie" bandwagon, you know, that hip crowd that wear tight tight jeans, riding hand-made frames, elbows-in narrow handlebars, doing tricks. But I have to admit, I rented a Seattle based fixie documentary video, just out of curiosity, but I lost interest after the second viewing. That's when I realized that "I'm just not a JOINER".

And I'm definitely not the competitive ass-clown in lycra trying to race everybody.

I simply wanted a laid-back ride so I can enjoy the scenery and save on train fare. I knew I wanted a backrest, pedal-forward or even recumbent but a used recumbent would easily have been about a 1000 bucks here. I wasn't looking for anything expensive. I was even willing to go super-cheap and piece a bike together from used parts. I took countless pictures of interesting bikes on the streets and from the net for some inspiration..

Then I found it...

outside a Thai restaurant where my wife and I were about to have dinner...

an odd looking bike...

with a backrest..

and adjustable!

Pedal forward. This can't be !

(actual pictures soon)

This is me, the odd beast, like the Platypus 8) !

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3035&p=139098#p139098

It was spray painted flat-black, like most stolen rides would be. Left brake lever was relocated on the backrest. Couldn't tell what make or model it was due to the spray paint. I guesstimated it to be over 1000 bucks brand new. It took me another several months to find it on the net and was surprised it was about 700 bucks brand new! Then I found a deal for $500 delivery included. OUTSTANDING I thought...

But just a few weeks of easy riding on the river bike paths, I ran up against some wicked headwinds that made me think that I bought the wrong bike. I never had plans of converting to electric but that ordeal got my wheels turning. So for me, it was more about evolution than methodology. More a primal need than cerebral. Ugh ... ooh ooh! I think I feel I will continue to evolve, but where I'll end up, who knows?

But I see many interesting projects in my future.

I like (no . . . L O V E) the simplicity of the Revive frame so much that I entertained the idea of knocking off my version with a frame tube and swing-arm tubes wide enough to stash a few pairs of A123 packs! How hard could it be to make it from scratch ? The fork would work like headshoks, the drop outs would robo, heavy duty for a hub motor. Or I just might go multi-RC motors Rear and Front. Or Alternator, even. If I ever pull this off, I may shed the pedals completely, grow more A123 cells, and register it as a motorcycle. Problem with a motorcycle is ya just can't legally fit a child seat on a motorcycle, can you? Or, can you . . . we'll see.

J

 

[Drunkskunk]

My Philosophy is to have fun. I don't have an agenda. I think they're great but I'm not out to change the world by riding an electric bike.

What I build I do so to please my own sense of fun. I like stealth and utility, combined with some measure of ruggedness. I want the bike to look as cool as it is to ride.

 

[Rassy]

My retirement home is up a 15% grade from the village, so I gave up biking. After a few years I got the bug to make an electric bike that could take me up the hill. Got a cheap Wal-Mart bike and added a 24V scooter motor ahead of the crank with the batteries on the rack. I could make it up the hill with several stops to rest, both me and the motor. Before long the smoke came out of the motor, and when looking on-line for a replacement motor I found hub motors. One 36V WE BD36 wasn't strong enough for the hill and I ended up building my first power trailer. Ended up with three BD36's, one on the bike and two on the trailer, and the hill was easy, but I didn't like the bike. Saw a friends recumbent trike, got one, built a new trailer with 20" wheels, and have been changing it ever since. Love the trike, so to me thats number 1, but without the e-part to get me up the hill I wouldn't be able to use the trike, so they are equally important.

Then I joined my brother and two of his biking buds for a ride along the coast highway. Decided the trike was too wide on those narrow shoulders, plus it was hard to miss rocks and pot holes with all five wheels on a different track. So the recumbent bike was purchased and electrified for road trips. Again, it's hard to tell whether the bike or the electric part is most important. But at my age (69), I don't like to ride anything but a recumbent and without power assist I wouldn't have the strength or endurance to ride too much.

That first MTB with the 24V scooter motor cost less than $200. Now I think $5,000 would be a conservative estimate of what this hobby has cost to date. The enjoyment from the ES forum and e-biking: PRICELESS

 

[AussieJester]

LOL..i didnt even entertain the idea of pedals (fact im a paraplegic and all makes pedals kinda pointless in the first place LOL)
Was strictly made as an electric vehicle, if the authorities dont likes it too bad

Have we any recent shots of your latest build recumpence?

KiM

 

[etard]

My philosophy is LOOPHOLE. I love to ride my MTB to get out in nature and enjoy God's creation, it' my escape. I have always ridden bikes, it was my original means of freedom as a child. Recently, I lost my license (this is where 2 emoticons clinking beer mugs could be used :wink: ) and had to figure out alternative sources of transportation. An electric bike was the only motorized means of transportation the law allowed, so I bought a BL36, and the e-grin has only gotten wider, except for those two times I flew over the handlebars. Then it looked more like this .

 

[spike]

I build them to be bikes first, but bikes that can help me climb any hill and go much further and faster than I could normally go. I started with an X5 which was too much like a moped (though I might try one again). I then I tried a 48V Hi-Koll, still got it and still like it apart from the gear noise. I then tried a Cyclone to see what powering the cranks would be like. I liked the way it felt more like a bike but didn't like the Cyclone gear noise and chain slip. I've also tried the Bafang and once I'd got the metal gears to replace the melted plastic ones I liked that too; again the only negative was gear noise. My latest build is a 9 continents kit which I'm very happy with, but I know I'll be in the queue for one of Matts gearboxes and an RC setup when I see what the early adopters have built. It's my hobby. It's frustrating, expensive, time consuming but most of all it's fun

 

[dogman dan]

The eternal oddball I am. One of the few that respond EV first, but I'm the one with a 58 tooth front crank on the thing. I still say it's a moped, not a bike though. I love to pedal hard, but I doubt I contribute even 10% of the power.

 

[michaelplogue]

I'm also of the EV-first crowd. If I want to ride a bicycle, I look for a bicycle that suits my needs. If I want an EV, I look for a platform that best suits those needs. All but one of my rides are non-pedaling, and are designed to be commuters. Since I work in a suit, I don't want anything that will make me all sweaty when I get there, so I need something that will get me to where I'm going without me having to get all physical.

I guess this is a carry-over of my dislike for 'multi-function' devices. When I want a cell phone, I want a cell phone - not a so-so phone with a so-so camera, a so-so mp3 player, and so-so internet device. When I want an image scanner, I don't want a scanner/printer/fax machine. I prefer items to be designed for a specific purpose, and to do that exceptionally well - without making compromises by cramming as many different functions into it as possible.

 

[Skiv]

Good question. I thought "it has to look like a bicycle." There are legal reasons for that. My situation is that I have a 40-km/25 mile commute each way. I want a larger EV eventually, but wanted something fun, simple and educational first. The distance involved means that converting a motorcycle is on the thin edge of impractical -- can't get enough lead on there to stay above 50% DOD, and licencing is steep.

So I got out the proverbial blank piece of paper and started noodling. 40 km at 10 Wh/km is 400 Wh. Add in some steep hills and allow for temperatures that only get around the "ideal" 30C in July. I wanted lead because lead is cheap and reliable, though heavy. I ended up with 48V at 1400 Wh which means on a really good day I might not have to plug in at all before I get home. It was a combination of "how much power do I need" and "I want 48 volts, what's the smallest battery I can buy four of that will fit on the bike?"

I figure I can pedal, too, which was important to me. (For the same reason I have a hand crank to start my tractor and like motorcycles with kickers.) I have yet to get it on the road -- we're out of winter and into the ice season. Maybe by the end of the month. It's in my dining room on blocks at the moment. Yes, my wife has said some things about it. I will try to find that "sweet spot" where I'm pedalling top gear at a good cadence, and use the motor to take the load off.

It's an old Trek MTB with an Xtracycle kit. I added "shelves" of diamond-plate aluminium to hold the batteries. It's a tank. It's a lean and whippy mother, but the weight is in front of the rear axle.

I've discovered again how much I like messing with light bikes. The next project will be a converted alternator running on LiFePo4 and being fairly conservative, but hopefully the same range at half the weight. Still want to do a motorcycle sometime, but this straddles that world in a way that wil make me fairly careful about how I "frame" it when talking to interested law enforcement personnel about it.