Very Impressed by fast motor winding with gear reduction vs. Slow motor Winding without gear reduction

ebike4healthandfitness said:
MadRhino said:
LTO may have a future for cars, but ebikes have limited space and weight requirements.

500 Wh of LTO would weigh about the same as 1.5 kwh of conventional lion.....

.....but if I could get a higher Regen percentage and could charge at 4C from a 20 amp outlet (or 3C from a 15 amp outlet) then maybe it is better than using a 1.5 kwh conventional lion pack?
Maybe just build it and report back on real world results. Your fundamental misunderstanding of how regen works in the real world won’t align to any of your theories and hypotheses, but go for it already.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hope you figure out ways to recover/get more amps out of regenerative braking. So don't take me as negative and report back and educate us.

Just want to keep new members expectations in line with what is normally achieved. Have played with getting my regen numbers higher. Has been a few years, 17% was my highest and did crazy things to get it there. Would not slow down early, would wait and brake hard with regen, peddle down hills with regen on. Going slow with other riders, would peddle with regen engaged until tired out.

This practice was not very efficient as far as getting the most miles per watt from my battery. Now live by the rule if you don't use it don't need to recover it. Now my regen is low and can normally get around 14w/mile. With my riding habits. Can get more or less depends if I feel wasteful or just enjoying the ride. I do know what to expect and how far I can go and get about 75w free per full charge.




by ebike4healthandfitness » Sep 19 2021 11:07am

MadRhino wrote: ↑Sep 19 2021 10:53am

LTO may have a future for cars, but ebikes have limited space and weight requirements.
500 Wh of LTO would weigh about the same as 1.5 kwh of conventional lion.....

.....but if I could get a higher Regen percentage and could charge at 4C from a 20 amp outlet (or 3C from a 15 amp outlet) then maybe it is better than using a 1.5 kwh conventional lion pack?
 
Yep. We need feedback from someone who had built an ebike with LITO. It will remind us the good old time of lead-acid. :D

All of us are waiting for the day batteries will improve density, because compact lightweight batteries are every ebike builders dream.
 
ZeroEm said:
Hope you figure out ways to recover/get more amps out of regenerative braking.

Well one thing I want to do is go down very steep hills at 5 mph while efficiently regenerating......but hubs are normally least efficient at lower speeds.

But hub efficiency can be increased at low speed by using them submaximally.....but then that means a bigger hub is needed and/or two hubs (trike has the added advantage of being able to use three hubs) is needed to regain the same braking force as the single hub maximally working.
 
All my life I had the opposite dream. I mean, riding DH 150 mph. :twisted:

Down a steep hill at 5 mph on a trike, you’re likely to be run over by a truck.
 
Read up on billvon's bike trips. He has tried different combinations of motors, controllers. Used to take long rides in the near by Mountains close where he lives. He has impressive numbers with regen. He has logged his trips and there is a lot to read but will give you some data and idea where to start and what has been done by him.

GPS track: GPX
Bike Ridden: Power Gold Rush
Distance: 119.6 miles
Cumulative climbing: 11150 feet
Total Time: 8:14:24
Riding Time: 7:12:09
Avg. Speed (moving): 16.5 mph
Max. Speed: 28.4 mph
Nominal System Voltage: 48
Battery energy available: 2400 wh
Battery energy consumed: 2192 wh
Net battery energy consumed: 1232 wh
Wh/mi: 10.3
Battery Amps-Hour Used: 41.5
Regen Amps-Hour Recovered: 18.1
Peak Forward Current: 21.6 Amps
Peak Regen Current: 21.9 Amps
Peak Motor Temperature: 113 C
Average Motor Temperature: 47 C
Time spent overheated (>100C): 9:54

Mr bills bike blog
 
ZeroEm said:
Read up on billvon's bike trips. He has tried different combinations of motors, controllers. Used to take long rides in the near by Mountains close where he lives. He has impressive numbers with regen. He has logged his trips and there is a lot to read but will give you some data and idea where to start and what has been done by him.

GPS track: GPX
Bike Ridden: Power Gold Rush
Distance: 119.6 miles
Cumulative climbing: 11150 feet
Total Time: 8:14:24
Riding Time: 7:12:09
Avg. Speed (moving): 16.5 mph
Max. Speed: 28.4 mph
Nominal System Voltage: 48
Battery energy available: 2400 wh
Battery energy consumed: 2192 wh
Net battery energy consumed: 1232 wh
Wh/mi: 10.3
Battery Amps-Hour Used: 41.5
Regen Amps-Hour Recovered: 18.1
Peak Forward Current: 21.6 Amps
Peak Regen Current: 21.9 Amps
Peak Motor Temperature: 113 C
Average Motor Temperature: 47 C
Time spent overheated (>100C): 9:54

Mr bills bike blog

Thanks. I will be reading that blog.
 
If you have skinny tires on a very light bike, you can only harvest a small amount of regen. If you have a controller with adjustable regen, then setting it to heavy regen will lock up the tires in a skid.

If you have a steep downhill on your commute, I suspect the highest possible regen would be harvested from the front wheel.
 
ebike4healthandfitness said:
So besides the increased weight and volume tradeoffs for LTO, how bad is the situation with chargers for LTO?
Volts are volts, amps are amps.

Good chargers have adjustable output, and do not limit you to any particular voltage setpoint.

Just because you **can** charge very fast, does not mean you should, nothing requires you to do so.

High wattage does have safety issues, wiring / switches / CP infrastructure is more critical, gets more expensive.

240Vac circuits of course handle kW loads better than 110Vac, and 30/50A are required when you get up to EV-level charge needs.

$300 is cheap for a good EV-level charger, $500+ pretty normal.

BMS designed for LTO are pretty common. Unless you are switching external contactors, the ampacity the rig overall is pulling from your pack needs to be accommodated, with some safety overhead

nothing to do with the pack's energy storage capacity.
 
ebike4healthandfitness said:
if I could charge at 4C from a 20 amp outlet (or 3C from a 15 amp outlet)
I'm guessing you mean 115Vac as used mostly in the US?

15A is about 1500W

20A maybe 1900W

 
What voltage are you thinking for your LTO regen pack?

The ability to absorb current up to 6C allows it to substitute for resistors, but no need to charge it fast from AC grid power.

Note the LTO pack does not need to be very large.

Certainly a small fraction of the main li-ion propulsion pack.

And if you want its collected energy to be put to use, it could serve functions other than propulsion.

 
ZeroEm said:
Read up on billvon's bike trips. He has tried different combinations of motors, controllers. Used to take long rides in the near by Mountains close where he lives. He has impressive numbers with regen. He has logged his trips and there is a lot to read but will give you some data and idea where to start and what has been done by him.

GPS track: GPX
Bike Ridden: Power Gold Rush
Distance: 119.6 miles
Cumulative climbing: 11150 feet
Total Time: 8:14:24
Riding Time: 7:12:09
Avg. Speed (moving): 16.5 mph
Max. Speed: 28.4 mph
Nominal System Voltage: 48
Battery energy available: 2400 wh
Battery energy consumed: 2192 wh
Net battery energy consumed: 1232 wh
Wh/mi: 10.3
Battery Amps-Hour Used: 41.5
Regen Amps-Hour Recovered: 18.1
Peak Forward Current: 21.6 Amps
Peak Regen Current: 21.9 Amps
Peak Motor Temperature: 113 C
Average Motor Temperature: 47 C
Time spent overheated (>100C): 9:54

Mr bills bike blog
That's great data. I wish the data included downhill distance and average downhill speed, but I put the data in a spreadsheet, with those inputs as variables. For these three cases, it assumes the uphill and downhill distances are the same (half the full distance) since I'm too lazy to map the route and compute those distances. But with that data, the spreadsheet will auto adjust. I ran three average downhill/regen speeds to see the impact, imputing the average regen watts:

20mph descent
Regen Watts.jpg

10mph descent
Regen Watts slow.jpg

25mph decent
Regen Watts fast.jpg

Still playing with the data and checking formulas, so if something looks glaringly incorrect, point it out so I can adjust the formulas. Definitely adjusting the actual downhill distances and average downhill speed will influence the results.

That said, seems to be similar to what I experience. On longer steep descents, slowing with regen to around 20mph seems to yield the best energy back to my battery. For my bike, on a 15%-20% descent, that equates to regen watts of about 275W-300W. Too much regen and the velocity is too slow to produce much energy recovery.

Took a look at the routes between Tahoe and Angels Camp and eyeballed the uphill and downhill distances, and assumed 20mph descents for both cases/directions. Tahoe is about 2400 ft above Angels but the two route vary.
Tahoe Angels.jpg
 
john61ct said:
What voltage are you thinking for your LTO regen pack?

If I were to use Toshiba SCiB cells for a pack around 500 Wh then I would definitely want to use the 20 ah cells over the 10ah cells.

https://www.global.toshiba/ww/products-solutions/battery/scib/product/cell.html

10ah cell is listed at 47 Wh per kilogram
20ah cell is listed at 89 Wh per kilogram

So that means 24v 20ah battery would weigh almost half as much as a 48v 10ah battery.
 
Here are the specs on the high power SCiB cells:

https://www.global.toshiba/ww/products-solutions/battery/scib/next/hp-cell.html

For this one the density of the 4.8 ah is 82 percent of 20ah. (Basically they boosted the capacity of the 2.9ah cell to 4.8ah while improving input and output.)
 
ebike4healthandfitness said:
john61ct said:
What voltage are you thinking for your LTO regen pack?

If I were to use Toshiba SCiB cells for a pack around 500 Wh then I would definitely want to use the 20 ah cells over the 10ah cells.

https://www.global.toshiba/ww/products-solutions/battery/scib/product/cell.html

10ah cell is listed at 47 Wh per kilogram
20ah cell is listed at 89 Wh per kilogram

So that means 24v 20ah battery rather than a 48v 10ah battery would weigh almost half as much.

That's because they're not the same cells, and they're made to do different things. Two 10Ah cells in parallel are rated to charge and discharge 3-1/3 times as much current as one 20Ah cell.

If you're already taking a weight and expense hit just so you can charge faster, then it might make sense to use the faster-charging cells to maximize this value (depending on application). For your application, I have a hard time imagining that Wh/kg and Wh/$ aren't both more important than charge rate.
 
Chalo said:
ebike4healthandfitness said:
john61ct said:
What voltage are you thinking for your LTO regen pack?

If I were to use Toshiba SCiB cells for a pack around 500 Wh then I would definitely want to use the 20 ah cells over the 10ah cells.

https://www.global.toshiba/ww/products-solutions/battery/scib/product/cell.html

10ah cell is listed at 47 Wh per kilogram
20ah cell is listed at 89 Wh per kilogram

So that means 24v 20ah battery rather than a 48v 10ah battery would weigh almost half as much.

That's because they're not the same cells, and they're made to do different things. Two 10Ah cells in parallel are rated to charge and discharge 3-1/3 times as much current as one 20Ah cell.

If you're already taking a weight and expense hit just so you can charge faster, then it might make sense to use the faster-charging cells to maximize this value (depending on application). For your application, I have a hard time imagining that Wh/kg and Wh/$ aren't both more important than charge rate.

Toshiba does a good job explaining that below:

https://www.global.toshiba/ww/products-solutions/battery/scib/next/nto.html

The 2.9ah and 10ah are described as the "power density" cells while the 20ah and 23ah are described as "energy density" cells.

They also describe their new SCiB cells using niobium titanium oxide (NTO) anodes as having the "power density" but with added capacity.
 
So long as this thread is about regen braking now, ehehe, here is a great resource to very accurately calculate your desired braking power:

https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

You'll need to ascertain your CdA and CRR though, but you can approximate it using reference data.

Regarding low regen percentage: if you rarely brake at all, you'll get no regen, duh.
A light bicycle with terrible aerodynamics is, indeed, pretty poor candidate for regen - you'll hardly 'outregen' even no-load losses when you pedal the bike w/o assist, unless your road is all 'steep up/twisty down'. Than regen is a godsend.

Something like a heavy velomobile is a much better candidate, but typical e-bike DD motors are very heavy and have extremely high heat losses, and relatively thick laminations mean pretty high no-load losses.

A motor that will output a torque similar to a good bicycle brake (about 100nm) will do it at very low efficiency and overheat very quickly, and/or will be very heavy and have high no-load losses, hence will be hateful to pedal w/o assit (unless you go the way of grin and add constant assist even with zero throttle, but that is still losses...) - or will have to come in a form of fixed gear middrive with high mechanical reduction (returning to the original point of this thread).

A 'holy grail' of high-efficiency motor assist with regen, but zero iron losses would be either switched reluctance motor (it has it's downsides), or a system that has manual clutch with a neutral gear, in a form of a middrive with high reduction ratio that is independent from bicycle transmission (or a friction drive, I intend to experiment with that).

However, using recuperation as *emergency braking* is an overkill I think, unless you are building what amounts to an electric motorcycle. It is best used to scrub speed indeed. This is more efficient on motor, on battery and emergency braking (hopefully) does not happen very often and conventional brakes indeed to it well enough.

This way an efficient fixed gear middrive with low no-load losses but pretty high 'ampacity' will be able to provide high-speed assist and speed scrubbing, assist in climbing steep stuff/brisk accelerations will be provided by a motor with an overruning clutch, likely 'crankdrive'.

I'm testing such a system right now, still need some kinks to iron out but works pretty good for my purposes:
FKbZnPuh.jpg


An other benefit of middrive - you are no longer limited by dropout design.
 
john61ct said:
ebike4healthandfitness said:
So besides the increased weight and volume tradeoffs for LTO, how bad is the situation with chargers for LTO?
Volts are volts, amps are amps.

Good chargers have adjustable output, and do not limit you to any particular voltage setpoint.

Just because you **can** charge very fast, does not mean you should, nothing requires you to do so.

High wattage does have safety issues, wiring / switches / CP infrastructure is more critical, gets more expensive.

240Vac circuits of course handle kW loads better than 110Vac, and 30/50A are required when you get up to EV-level charge needs.

Apparently EV charge station to ebike adapters do exist. Here is one I found that provides 220v 20 amp outlets:

https://www.evseadapters.com/products/tesla-to-nema-5-15-ev-charger-adapter-for-e-bike-scooter-one-wheel-etc/

In an urban environment rich with Tesla chargers that could really give a boost to LTO (or NTO).

P.S. I've read that Tesla allows non-Tesla vehicles to use their charging stations.
 
I'd bet Tesla and the others will quickly put a stop to that if it becomes popular
 
With access to 4400 watt hour charging scattered throughout a city I could imagine a 500 watt hour NTO or LTO battery equipped vehicle being able to stay active a whole bunch more compared to something using a conventional lion 1.5 killowatt-hour pack. This particularly if the NTO (or LTO) equipped vehicle was also able to gather more watt hours from regen.
 
john61ct said:
I'd bet Tesla and the others will quickly put a stop to that if it becomes popular

NTO seems like it would good for urban mobility rental companies. If so, then I hope they could make a deal with Tesla.

Would like to be able to rent a durable and reliable moped from time to time.
 
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